Fanfic Pet Peeves

[SF_and_Coffee]

I don't trust those. Plug in characters like Batman, Aang, King Arthur, and even Jesus and they come out as Sues. It totally denies the quality of writing and claims that coincidences and certain plot points are pure evil.

Its purpose is to point out when a character deviates too far from the norm for general human beings. Obviously, Batman, Aang, King Arthur and Jesus are pretty far from the norm to begin with, so I'd be more concerned if it didn't peg them. Technically, at least some of those characters ARE Mary Sues, as far as I'm concerned.

The main purpose of the test is to tell someone when the character they've written expecting readers to accept them as a more or less normal believable person is, in fact, neither normal or believable.

[Aragon101]

that's just it, the definition of Mary Sue has become something... diluted. It doesn't mean strong characters who are competent, it means characters who are unbelievably, impossibly, and unreasonably competent.

Batman might seem like a Mary Sue, but this is until you realize he's fighting things that no normal human could possibly face. he's balanced to the rest of his universe and it make sense.

It's like having a Jedi Master be an SG team member for an example. It CAN work, but the imbalance between their abilities makes it much more difficult.

[WraithRichard]

Its purpose is to point out when a character deviates too far from the norm for general human beings. Obviously, Batman, Aang, King Arthur and Jesus are pretty far from the norm to begin with, so I'd be more concerned if it didn't peg them. Technically, at least some of those characters ARE Mary Sues, as far as I'm concerned.

The main purpose of the test is to tell someone when the character they've written expecting readers to accept them as a more or less normal believable person is, in fact, neither normal or believable.

Then consider Daniel Jackson. Clumsy, excels at tons of languages, discovers dozens and dozens of Maguffins only he knows how to use/turn on/find properly, came back to life, got awesome powers for being a nice person, angsts over dead loved one... all major things on Mary Sue Litmus tests.

Besides, I've seen tests mark someone down for their sex/gender.

[SF_and_Coffee]

The test I linked to doesn't mark anyone down for their gender, or for much of anything else you've mentioned. I know that some of them do, and that's why I didn't link to those, and linked to this specific one instead.

Here, in the test author's own words:

Please, please, please remember that these are the symptoms, not the disease. I am not implying that each of these traits is inheirently bad and should be avoided at all costs. Think of them as being like salt or spices - they serve to enhance the dish when used in the right amounts, but when used too liberally, the result tends to be quite unappetizing.

[WraithRichard]

At least they do understand that these are symptoms. Most don't and tend to teach people that it's those that need to be fixed. Still, many characters that come off as quite human have a very liberal sprinkling. I think we need more tests that focus on finding the disease and not the symptoms. Betting to the root of a Sue is much harder than fixing the symptoms; in fact, some of the worst sue can still have extremely few.

Aragorn has it right. It's how the character fits into the story, not the symptoms or the amount of them that make a character a Sue.

[SF_and_Coffee]

Just for the record, I put Daniel through that litmus test about two minutes ago, and it says he isn't a Mary Sue.

[SF_and_Coffee]

At least they do understand that these are symptoms. Most don't and tend to teach people that it's those that need to be fixed. Still, many characters that come off as quite human have a very liberal sprinkling. I think we need more tests that focus on finding the disease and not the symptoms. Betting to the root of a Sue is much harder than fixing the symptoms; in fact, some of the worst sue can still have extremely few.

Aragorn has it right. It's how the character fits into the story, not the symptoms or the amount of them that make a character a Sue.

Well, I think that in almost any story, a fantastically beautiful, half-animal magical furry character with telepathy and three magical weapons who is the lone survivor of her village's destruction, with whom all male characters fall madly in love whether they want to or not, who can do no wrong, or if she does, she gets away with it every time, and who rides a pink unicorn is DEFINITELY a Mary Sue. In some cases, context ISN'T everything.

You can't diagnose a disease without enumerating and examining the symptoms.

[WraithRichard]

Well, I think that in almost any story, a fantastically beautiful, half-animal magical furry character with telepathy and three magical weapons who is the lone survivor of her village's destruction, with whom all male characters fall madly in love whether they want to or not, who can do no wrong, or if she does, she gets away with it every time, and who rides a pink unicorn is DEFINITELY a Mary Sue. In some cases, context ISN'T everything.

You can't diagnose a disease without enumerating and examining the symptoms.

In that case, yes. You can't relate to that.

The point of Batman is, at his core, that he is human. His determination is what often makes him better than those with mere physical superpowers and you can understand not just that, but his struggle with the duality of the life h'es chosen and even relate to him when it's pointed out how he's lost humanity.

The point of Daniel is that he isn't just human, but he represents the best of humanity, sometimes even in contrast to stupider and meaner stuff humans are also know for doing. Sure, he's socially awkward, a genius who's hard to understand sometimes, and has come back form the dead and got awesome powers. But the point is he's not going to stop being human just because he can shot lasers from his eyes (or whatever).

Sue tests should really be 'Can people relate to your character?' 'You sure?' and 'Why? (Please answer in complete sentences).

This is kinda why I wish I'd get a comment about BiAA (and later Manhood when I post it). Are my characters , though alien in several ways, relatable? If not, why not?

How in the heck do I make Cualli someone people can relate to when she's a nasty slave-driver who believes in human and alien sacrifice? Does it make sense that she'd be nice, given the circumstances?

Spoiler:

Sometimes I feel like the discworld Auditors taking apart the painting to see why it's so great

[SF_and_Coffee]

Actually, tell me what you think of this test for characters. I kind of like it. A lot of "too good to be real" or "Mary-Sue"-ish characters actually come from writers creating a character based somewhat on an idealized version of themselves as they would like to be, and then endowing that character with all sorts of additional qualities or events that make them so much larger than life as to cause the reader to think "gah!" This test looks for that.

(And I've used it on my characters, as another way to check for symptoms of Sue or other things.)

[mathpiglet]

I ran my OC through that, but with reservations. Since my stories are based on Highlander, my OC is an an immortal. The dying several times worried me. But, in the end, I got a decent result:

In general, you care deeply about your character, but you're smart enough to let her stand on her own, without burdening her with your personal fantasies or propping her up with idealization and over-dramatization. She is a healthy character with a promising career ahead of her.

[WraithRichard]

Actually, tell me what you think of this test for characters. I kind of like it. A lot of "too good to be real" or "Mary-Sue"-ish characters actually come from writers creating a character based somewhat on an idealized version of themselves as they would like to be, and then endowing that character with all sorts of additional qualities or events that make them so much larger than life as to cause the reader to think "gah!" This test looks for that.

(And I've used it on my characters, as another way to check for symptoms of Sue or other things.)

Some aspects don't make sense (has vaguely similar physical characteristics? Why is she marked down for blue eyes, pale skin, and brown hair), or why it's special is her name is welsh or not usually pronounced correctly?

Surprisingly, though, when I plugged my wraith character (strange powers, looks weird, heavily armed, wears black leather trenchcoats,) who had a lot of emotional baggage and a masculine name, she didn't come out that bad. This test looks pretty good, being able to take a lot of context into account.

It's pretty good.

[LtKatia]

This.

Actually, I've found the Mary Sue Litmus Test quiz to be of some help. I ran it on Frank, and was told that he seems to be healthy and in no real danger of becoming a Marty Stu.

I tried the Mary Sue test - I got 26

Some definite Sue-like tendancies here. A little polishing might be in order to put original fiction and RPG characters back into the balance, especially if Kirking is involved. Fanfiction characters should probably have some work done.

on my character, an OC Tok'ra queen symbiote - currently without a host! I'm not sure I did this correct?

[LtKatia]

Actually, tell me what you think of this test for characters. I kind of like it. A lot of "too good to be real" or "Mary-Sue"-ish characters actually come from writers creating a character based somewhat on an idealized version of themselves as they would like to be, and then endowing that character with all sorts of additional qualities or events that make them so much larger than life as to cause the reader to think "gah!" This test looks for that.

(And I've used it on my characters, as another way to check for symptoms of Sue or other things.)

This test my characters handled better (or?):

Nahia is only a little like you. She is not at all cool; in fact, she thinks cool is a temperature reading, and when she says "Oh, I just put on whatever old thing's lying around," she means "on the floor, where I threw it last night - but I turned the underwear inside out first." There's never been anything special about her that she could see; boy, is she in for a surprise. She's got no emotional scars to speak of. And she's gotten no slack from you.

In general, you've kept yourself a goodly distance from Nahia and given her plenty of room - maybe a little too much. Don't distance yourself so far from Nahia that you stop caring what happens to her.

[Feast of the Muse]

Actually, tell me what you think of this test for characters. I kind of like it. A lot of "too good to be real" or "Mary-Sue"-ish characters actually come from writers creating a character based somewhat on an idealized version of themselves as they would like to be, and then endowing that character with all sorts of additional qualities or events that make them so much larger than life as to cause the reader to think "gah!" This test looks for that.

(And I've used it on my characters, as another way to check for symptoms of Sue or other things.)

Plugged Sarah into that test.

Sarah is suspiciously similar to you as you'd like to be. She isn't really very cool: she blends into crowds, she hangs out on the fringes at parties, and wearing shades after dark makes her run into things. She may have sometimes thought that she was special, or destined for greater things, but probably dismissed the idea as a fantasy. She's got no emotional scars to speak of. And she's gotten no slack from you.

In general, you care deeply about Sarah, but you're smart enough to let her stand on her own, without burdening her with your personal fantasies or propping her up with idealization and over-dramatization. Sarah is a healthy character with a promising career ahead of her.

Hey, it's not my fault we share a basic description you'd see on a BOLO. She's a short white girl with Helen's blonde hair gene. *rolls eyes* I was happy to see that she's just a normal character. Also, how do they get away with "...suspiciously similar to you as you'd like to be. She isn't really very cool..."? Man, I want my money back. That's just mean.

[WraithRichard]

Hey, it's not my fault we share a basic description you'd see on a BOLO. She's a short white girl with Helen's blonde hair gene. *rolls eyes* I was happy to see that she's just a normal character. Also, how do they get away with "...suspiciously similar to you as you'd like to be. She isn't really very cool..."? Man, I want my money back. That's just mean.

I know. And what's wrong with an Irish version of a French version of a Biblical name?