Fanfic Pet Peeves

[sbz]

I never called it a proper noun. I said, in the context I brought up, it's functioning that way for characters who use it as a name. I never said it was something it wasn't or advocated using it for all common nouns. You're the one taking it to the extreme to make it look ridiculous.

That's funny, because I've got a lot of those books (Clancy, Griffin, etc.) physically on my bookshelves and I actually went and looked at a few of them today just to make sure I wasn't misremembering what I'm used to reading. The ones I have generally follow the very same style convention I follow, and which I advocate. Are you sure what you were seeing on Amazon wasn't in reviews or quotes, rather than the actual printed material itself?

Um, yeah. I know how to use the internet, and Amazon, and the "look inside" feature, thank you. It's probably not intentional, but you can sound incredibly condescending sometimes. So I'm going to end this discussion here before it devolves (and it seems pretty clear you're a prescriptivist, so any disccusion about flexibility in grammar is going nowhere fast).

[Whytewytch]

Indeed it does.

ROFL! I thought I was having a blonde moment for not knowing what MLP stood for. You've made my day!

[Whytewytch]

SF_and_Coffee:

The problem isn't one of disrupting reader comprehension, any more than having ten typos for every twenty words is, or continually misspelling a character's name or consistently forgetting to capitalize names like jack or sam or daniel (See? It's jarring, isn't it?), or getting the character's "voice" wrong in dialogue. The problem here is that typos, spelling errors and uncharacteristic voices all have a tendency to jar the reader out of the story or the scene so that they're noticing how you've written something rather than what you've written.

I have to agree with this. I notice this in published works that I read sometimes. When I spot a mistake, it does take me out of the story.

Um, yeah. I know how to use the internet, and Amazon, and the "look inside" feature, thank you. It's probably not intentional, but you can sound incredibly condescending sometimes. So I'm going to end this discussion here before it devolves (and it seems pretty clear you're a prescriptivist, so any disccusion about flexibility in grammar is going nowhere fast).

I'm probably going to regret jumping in here, but I like both of you and hate to see such discord. Maybe because I am not in this bit of the conversation, I see things differently. I think SF_and_Coffee was just pointing out that in published work, this is how things are done. There are rules, just as in math. Most of those rules allow for very little to no flexibility. Perhaps if you could cite your reference? I really would be interested in knowing exactly how to use this. I still hope (despite my advanced age--lol) to be in the publishing field in some capacity and I would like to know if there is another way to handle this situation.

I'm still not 100% convinced on Firéad/firéad, especially since it falls into the murk. However, current rules do seem to dictate that my pet name should not be capitalized; therefore, in future, I will not capitalize such a thing unless it is the ONLY name they are known by, like "Lovey" on Gilligan's Island. Honestly, the bit about the capitalized proper nouns made me think. I would thoroughly expect (and hope) that any mistakes I made in my grammar would be caught and fixed by my editor were I to have books on a bookstore shelf for sale.

It didn't sound to me like she was being condescending asking about if you might have accidentally clicked on a review. We all make mistakes. Lord knows, I have made my share and then some. Sometimes, certain nuances are hard to convey in the written language and may come across as condescending.[[HUGS]]


Another pet peeve: Obvious lack of research. I think we were discussing this a bit earlier, but it bears repetition. If you're going to use herbs, let us know which ones and what they are being used for. If you're going to talk about medicine, have a smidgen of knowledge; same for tech. No one says you have to be an expert, but know something about the topic you're covering, even if you're faking it. If you know a little bit about something and use that knowledge properly, it can totally add an intimacy and sense of reality to your story.

[SF_and_Coffee]

I never called it a proper noun. I said, in the context I brought up, it's functioning that way for characters who use it as a name.

The problem is that it doesn't work that way. I didn't make the rule, I'm just talking about what the rule is, so don't blame me. Consistency makes things a lot easier to read. Frankly, I wouldn't care if the rule DID work the way you want it to, as long as it was consistent. But, as Whytewytch noted, the inconsistencies are what pull readers out of the story, and when you've worked long and hard to write something your readers can immerse themselves in, why would you want to do something that pulls them back out of it?

I never said it was something it wasn't or advocated using it for all common nouns. You're the one taking it to the extreme to make it look ridiculous.

No, I'm not. It was an example. We've all seen examples.

Um, yeah. I know how to use the internet, and Amazon, and the "look inside" feature, thank you. It's probably not intentional, but you can sound incredibly condescending sometimes.

I'm going to let Whytewytch answer that one, since she's done a wonderful job of it already:

It didn't sound to me like she was being condescending asking about if you might have accidentally clicked on a review. We all make mistakes. Lord knows, I have made my share and then some. Sometimes, certain nuances are hard to convey in the written language and may come across as condescending

THIS. It isn't as if I was sitting there looking over your shoulder while you looked on Amazon, is it? How would I know what you clicked? For that matter, I've found in one or two instances that the "look inside" feature doesn't always seem to reproduce the text of the actual book faithfully, and it's even possible that the physical versions on my bookshelves are different editions or printings from what you looked at on Amazon, and have gone through different iterations of the editing process. That actually isn't terribly uncommon in publishing.

By the way, none of what I've said here is intended to be condescending. Tone of voice doesn't come across well in this type of venue.

So I'm going to end this discussion here before it devolves (and it seems pretty clear you're a prescriptivist, so any disccusion about flexibility in grammar is going nowhere fast).

No, I'm hardly a prescriptivist. But there's a difference between believing that rules for language use in writing exist for a reason, and advocating that they be observed to the extent that it improves the reader's experience, and being a prescriptivist. I'm a language buff overall, in general. I love words and their meanings, their common use and their formal use. But a certain amount of standardization is necessary in writing, particularly in a genre which has so many other intrinsic oddnesses to it already. As Whytewytch said:

I have to agree with this. I notice this in published works that I read sometimes. When I spot a mistake, it does take me out of the story.

I have trouble believing we're the only two people who feel this way.

I think SF_and_Coffee was just pointing out that in published work, this is how things are done. There are rules, just as in math. Most of those rules allow for very little to no flexibility.

Very true. And I didn't make the rules; I'm only the messenger. Please don't zat me, anyone. Note also that the rules for things do change over time... and when that happens, it won't be my fault either.

I'm still not 100% convinced on Firéad/firéad, especially since it falls into the murk. However, current rules do seem to dictate that my pet name should not be capitalized; therefore, in future, I will not capitalize such a thing unless it is the ONLY name they are known by, like "Lovey" on Gilligan's Island. Honestly, the bit about the capitalized proper nouns made me think. I would thoroughly expect (and hope) that any mistakes I made in my grammar would be caught and fixed by my editor were I to have books on a bookstore shelf for sale.

So would I, for mine. Actually, I was fortunate enough in my current fanfic WIP to have the first several chapters edited by a professional editor friend of mine. He's since found himself incredibly busy, so I've had to take the early advice he gave me, coupled with my own knowledge (I've done a little bit of editing, but nowhere near the amount he's done) and move forward on the strength of that alone, with help from betas when I can get it. But having my friend RM's help early on was invaluable, and taught me a lot.

Interestingly, I only learned the actual rule regarding when to capitalize and not capitalize military titles within the time that I've been working on this story. I knew there WAS a rule, and I knew what the result looked like, but the formula for WHY it is that way and how to apply it is fairly new knowledge to me. I actually had to go back and fix my own usage in a few places in this current story when I learned it (again, with the help of my friend RM).

Another pet peeve: Obvious lack of research. I think we were discussing this a bit earlier, but it bears repetition. If you're going to use herbs, let us know which ones and what they are being used for. If you're going to talk about medicine, have a smidgen of knowledge; same for tech. No one says you have to be an expert, but know something about the topic you're covering, even if you're faking it. If you know a little bit about something and use that knowledge properly, it can totally add an intimacy and sense of reality to your story.

I absolutely could not agree with this more. Lately it seems that I spend at least as much time researching portions of my stories as I do actually writing those portions.

[Goose]

How about we all just agree that there are certain rules that are generally accepted. You may or may not agree with these rules, but whatever you do, try to be consistent.

[Whytewytch]

How about we all just agree that there are certain rules that are generally accepted. You may or may not agree with these rules, but whatever you do, try to be consistent.

I can totally get behind that.

ETA: Just to clarify--if I see it written incorrectly, it is still going to bother me & pull me away from "the zone" when I'm reading it. And if I review a story like that, I might note the issue and ask if the person has considered using a beta. Not to be snotty; I just hate to see a well-written story marred by little mistakes that, when fixed, can only strengthen it. Believe me, I still miss some of my corrections when I am editing. I have gone back to view old postings and they sometimes make me shudder. **head/desk**

[Whytewytch]

I'm a language buff overall, in general. I love words and their meanings, their common use and their formal use.

Holy cow! Me, too. I am one of the few (okay, the only one) who enjoyed sentence diagramming in middle school. I took a course in college about the roots of the English language as an elective. One of the reasons I fell for my hubby is that he had a quick with and could play with words. Yup, I've just declared my level of geekdom. The Geek is strong in this one...

Note also that the rules for things do change over time...

Boo, hiss. WW no like. The only English course I ever got less than a B in was a new grammar course in college. None of it made ANY sense. And that was when I was young and not set in my ways.

Actually, I was fortunate enough in my current fanfic WIP to have the first several chapters edited by a professional editor friend of mine.

Are you channeling me? All of my current WIP (ironically, not the one with the ferret reference) are being beta'ed by a friend who has been in the publishing business for about 8 years. She's written, edited & been in various membership positions with the RWA, as well as having written numerous online papers and taught online courses about writing fanfic. She is also teaching me quite a lot & is wise enough to know that there's only so much correction to be addressed in each chapter. My biggest problem is voice--I want to tell everyone's story at once. Second to that, lately, has been distance. I have had so little time to write that when I get 5 minutes, I do it then and it shows.

Interestingly, I only learned the actual rule regarding when to capitalize and not capitalize military titles within the time that I've been working on this story. I knew there WAS a rule, and I knew what the result looked like, but the formula for WHY it is that way and how to apply it is fairly new knowledge to me.

I learned the actual rule in the past couple of years, but with titles of office while writing in the RH BBC fandom. (The prince -vs- Prince John)

Lately it seems that I spend at least as much time researching portions of my stories as I do actually writing those portions.

You're channeling me again. I was recently bemoaning the fact that I had chosen for my OFC to be a doctor instead of, say, a journalist or a waitress (I know how to write and I was a waitress for over 20 years). When I write a fight scene, I will spend literally hours watching vids on YouTube, reading and practicing the moves so I know what they feel like. I have used a baseball bat as a surrogate sword to practice moves and footwork, and often "borrow" my son's airsoft guns to get a feel for how a gun feels in my hands. When my OFC and a central character had to bust some of the others out of jail, I researched what herbs the women could use on the guards & how they could use the herbs without suffering the affects themselves.

[SF_and_Coffee]

How about we all just agree that there are certain rules that are generally accepted. You may or may not agree with these rules, but whatever you do, try to be consistent.

I can totally get behind that.

ETA: Just to clarify--if I see it written incorrectly, it is still going to bother me & pull me away from "the zone" when I'm reading it. And if I review a story like that, I might note the issue and ask if the person has considered using a beta. Not to be snotty; I just hate to see a well-written story marred by little mistakes that, when fixed, can only strengthen it. Believe me, I still miss some of my corrections when I am editing. I have gone back to view old postings and they sometimes make me shudder. **head/desk**

I can't say it any better than the above. Bravo, both of you. Whytewytch, you seem to be completely in synch with my thinking, and Goose, yes, I can see your point as well.

[mathpiglet]

High standards are important, but I tend to be a bit more forgiving with fanfiction. I understand some people are not going to be perfect in all the items which have been mentioned and still be able to tell a good story.

My advice to new writers would be to start with short stories. Get someone to beta for you to catch the the most obvious errors, but the number one important thing is to have a good tale! I will forgive some grammar, spelling and even capitalization () errors if the story draws me in.

[SF_and_Coffee]

My advice to new writers would be to start with short stories.

Oh boy... I am SO in trouble, then. I thought I was going to start with a short story. Then ATWLB insisted on being written instead, and clearly, it had other ideas...



(Well, I'm new to writing fanfic. To writing in general, not so much.)

[Feast of the Muse]

High standards are important, but I tend to be a bit more forgiving with fanfiction. I understand some people are not going to be perfect in all the items which have been mentioned and still be able to tell a good story.

My advice to new writers would be to start with short stories. Get someone to beta for you to catch the the most obvious errors, but the number one important thing is to have a good tale! I will forgive some grammar, spelling and even capitalization () errors if the story draws me in.

Oh my dear Mathpiglet. I wish I could have started small. The first thing I ever started still isn't finished and I'm over 10k words into it. *rolls eyes at self* I guess I could do a vignette or two and get some of you to eyeball it. The problem is, the ideas don't come small around here. *shakes stick at plot bunnies with long teeth*

[mathpiglet]

(Well, I'm new to writing fanfic. To writing in general, not so much.)

Then you are not a new writer. I was addressing new writers who may read this thread and feel discouraged. I know when I started writing (again, since I wrote a great deal as a girl, but math degrees do not lend themselves to writing), I received a great deal of encouragement. I look back and see all the mistakes and I am very grateful that my mentors did not slam me for each and every one but instead looked beyond the errors to the story.

[Choo1701]

My advice to new writers would be to start with short stories.

Oh boy... I am SO in trouble, then. I thought I was going to start with a short story. Then ATWLB insisted on being written instead, and clearly, it had other ideas...

i was about to say the same thing SF & Coffee!

Because realising you may have to draw two hundred, three hundred, PLUS pages of comic is SUCH a good idea for your first. Ever. Fan. Fiction!

*sigh* mathpiglet where you a year ago!?! XD

(oh, and i'm still looking for a beta...its only eight hundred + words for twenty pages!! )

[mathpiglet]

[



i was about to say the same thing SF & Coffee!

Because realising you may have to draw two hundred, three hundred, PLUS pages of comic is SUCH a good idea for your first. Ever. Fan. Fiction!

*sigh* mathpiglet where you a year ago!?! XD

(oh, and i'm still looking for a beta...its only eight hundred + words for twenty pages!! )

A year ago, I was limiting myself to only one bb and I had just written my first SG story. (It's a crossover with Highlander.) My first writing attempts were in group stories which gave me models to emulate.

Are there chain/group stories here?

[WraithRichard]

Somehow, I have trouble writing short stories. I can never get them short enough.

What's a chain story?