Fanfic Pet Peeves

[Alipeeps]

Eeep. I'm just trawling ffnet for some fic (yeah, I'm that bored at work! ) and it's *never* a good sign when a fic starts:

"This is based on a dream that my best friend had. Please read and review x"

[starfox]

Actually, it's largely in the genre's nature. It compels the author towards scenes in which smut and purple prose become extremely hard to avoid, even for the best of writers.

There are genres that are by nature constricted. This is not a condemnation per se, but it makes them extremely unforgiving of even the minor writing faults. I used to read a lot of fantasy, for example, even attempted to write some, until I "figured it out" and began getting bored with the inescapable Arthurian template. There's only so much variety one can manage within the limitations of genre conventions.

Slash is one of these. You have to take two characters that, as a rule, are overtly straight, you need to backwards-engineer them as bisexual (in the best case), you have to make them sexually aware of each other and, more often than not, act on it. This pattern just doesn't give one a whole lot of leeway, and it is ridden with scenes which, as I've written before, always balance between smutty and tacky.

Your argument breaks down every time you use an absolute term like "always" without the qualifier "in my experience." Unless you've read every slash fic in existence, you cannot know where fics fall in the balance between "smutty and tacky," or even if that balance exists in all fics.

I must disagree with your constraint argument. Making two characters aware of and act upon a sexual attraction isn't particularly constraining, just like the problem of getting a character across rugged terrain in an action fic isn't particularly constraining. Your constraint argument could be used for every genre of literature currently in existence.

The romance angle also doesn't restrain the fic from exploring other areas of character; a true romantic relationship between individuals involves more than the genitals and the same is true in fic. Sheppard's emotional repression, Rodney's insecurities, Teyla's tension between the Atlanteans and the Athosians, Ronon's trauma from Running, Weir's precarious position as a civilian leader in military situations, Daniel's guilt over Sarah and Shau're, Jack's career, Teal'c's relationship with his family, Sam's struggles with being soldier/scientist/woman; any of these could be explored through a romantic fic, and often are. Lovers are told about personal histories, they help each other through trauma, etc. The fact that the central focus of the fic is the relationship doesn't discount the effect the relationship has on other story elements.

And why must characters be "backwards-engineered" as bisexual? What's wrong with accepting an assumption of bisexuality? I can't think of a single instance in the Stargate universe where the audience was told outright that a character was heterosexual; in fact, when asked by viewers if we'd ever get a gay or bisexual character on Stargate, Joe Mallozzi's answer was "Who says we haven't?". Just because heterosexual behaviour is the default for American television (with maybe some hot lesbians for sweeps week) doesn't mean that fanfiction writers must also make that assumption; that's one of the reasons fanfic exists, to show us things we don't/won't get to see on-screen. Besides, being in a heterosexual on-screen relationship doesn't mean a character can't code as queer on some level. For example, Law & Order: SVU writer Neal Baer admits to throwing some Alexandra Cabot/Olivia Benson subtext into their scenes, even though a relationship was never explicitly mentioned. In character analysis, subtext is as valuable as text.

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Basically, if you don't like a genre, fine, but please, don't try and support your distaste with faulty rhetoric meant to prove that said genre is somehow "lesser" than others. What some people love, you think is substanceless; what you love others may see as overblown and masturbatory. We're all entitled to our opinions; we are not, however, entitled to condescension.


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Back on topic

Alipeeps, I get your point on the sub-Sheppard, but it actually bugs me more when McKay is the overly submissive character; I can buy a submissive Sheppard given a certain amount of set-up, but McKay just seems a bit too neurotic to ever completely relinquish control over his body. Situations where the submissive partner does everything s/he is told without question or hesitation every single time bugs me regardless of pairing, because I don't see any of the characters as that open to submission. I'll read BDSM fic, but if there isn't at least a bit of hesitation or resistance I can't believe it. It feels like the author is shoving the situation on the pairing rather than molding and crafting things so that they all fit.


ETA: Wow, Alipeeps, that is a bad opener.
I hate bad summaries, but I'm grateful for them at the same time. They tell me not to waste my time reading.

[KatG]

I think this conversation is veering away from pet peeves and more into the realm of personal preference. It's one thing to say, "I hate slash fic where the characters are written OOC to facilitiate the slash element" - that's a peeve. It's another to say, "I'm not a fan of slash fic, for various reasons" - that's personal preference.

To get us - slightly - more back on track, one of my peeves with slash fic (of which I don't read a great deal, I admit) is Sheppard/McKay fic where Sheppard is written as entirely sexually submissive to a very dominant McKay. I just don't see that kind of submissiveness in Sheppard's character (though I know some folks would justify it/fanwank it that dominant personalities sometimes enjoy the chance to be submissive) and the whole thing just reads very OOC to me.

That's still a personal preference. You simply don't see Shep/McKay that way, while others obviously do or they wouldn't be writing it. But seriously, aren't pet peeves really about personal preferences in the first place. After all, it's your pet peeve, it's how you feel, so it's personal.

Eeep. I'm just trawling ffnet for some fic (yeah, I'm that bored at work! ) and it's *never* a good sign when a fic starts:

"This is based on a dream that my best friend had. Please read and review x"

Yikes. Back slowly away from that one.

[Alipeeps]

That's still a personal preference. You simply don't see Shep/McKay that way, while others obviously do or they wouldn't be writing it. But seriously, aren't pet peeves really about personal preferences in the first place. After all, it's your pet peeve, it's how you feel, so it's personal.

Well obviously everything is a personal preference but the point I was trying to make is that a peeve is a feeling that an element of a fic is incorrect whereas not liking a certain genre of fic is a personal preference and doesn't mean that genre of fic is "incorrect". I perhaps chose a poor example in trying to get the discussion back on track, however it was related to the recent discussion, given that it related to slash fic.

Plenty of people on here have posted peeves about characters being written OOC and I think that is a legitimate peeve. To use examples referred to previously, a writer may see Sam as being a weak and weepy woman and have her bursting into tears at every moment - but that's gonna bug readers because it is OOC from what we see of the character in the show and therefore can very much be considered to be poor writing.

Actually - ooops, I'm warming to my topic now! - that is probably one of my biggest peeves with fanfic; people writing the characters OOC. Given that the entire basis of fanfic is the characters and the universe of the show, that the point of fanfic is that we like something about these characters and this universe and what to explore them and write/read more about them, what on earth is the point of writing those characters OOC? If they are not at least vaguely recognisably the characters we see in the show, then really it's not even fanfic, is it? It's some random original character who happens to look like and have the same name and job as a character from the show!

[Bucky]

Oh gosh, where to start...

ok, let's see...

[*]Teal'c... or any other character who doesn't speak colloquial English naturally, using contractions. It's wrong unless there's a bona fide reason (like Holiday... but that was act. Jack inside T-man... ok, that sounded weird...)

Yes to having the characters speak grammatically. Sure I can see Jack saying "ain't gonna happen" sarcastically, but only in a context where it's clear he's being sarcastic and where he normally speaks Standard (American) English.

But I think it adds to Teal'c's gravity to have him speak without contractions. I notice that in more recent fics, authors have attuned to the change in Teal'c's character which had him having fun with the other characters by pretending that he didn't understand an idiom when he did.

[*]grammatical/spelling errors -- ok, there are writers whose first language isn't English so it can be a grey area in general depending on the quality of the story. The ones where it's so obvious that no proofreading was carried out really get my goat.

Yeah, me too. And, while I do try to cut non-English speakers some slack, I think *all* authors should ask for a beta to go over the story before it is published. There's probably too much dependence on SpellCheck--which does not catch all errors, and sometimes "corrects" things that were right to begin with. I check everything I write, and I still find typos.

And while on that subject: British-isms that take me out of the story. I can handle "-our" as in "favour" etc., but "whilst" and "amongst" put me over the edge, and when Jack or Daniel puts on a "jumper" all I can see is a sleeveless, loose-fitting, wide-cut dress. And "lounge room" sounds like a sleezey bar. LOL. I've adjusted --and make myself adjust when the story is otherwise well written, but doing so is an effort that jolts me out of the story every time.

And, another British-ism which I guess I can't count as a pet peeve is the "was stood" and "was sat" construction. (as in "Jack was stood by the door" or "Daniel was sat in the briefing room waiting for the team." Apparently that's acceptable vernacular British English, but it's just, well, ungrammatical in American English where I would expect "Jack was standing by the door" or "Daniel was sitting in the briefing room...." But it's hard to fault people for something that is fundamental to their dialect (as opposed to looking up the American terms for "living room," "sofa," "sweater/pullover," etc).

[*]OOC -- ok... e.g.
Sam being: wimpy, pine-y, a slapper/tramp, ignorant

and/or petulant, spoiled, whiny, or demanding.

Also, about Sam, since I mentally project the physical appearance of the actors onto the characters, it's a pet peeve of mine if Sam is described as "petite," or "fragile" or delicate or having small hands, etc. AT may have been thin in the early seasons, but her appearance even then was neither "petite" nor "fragile."

Daniel being: wimpy; an absolute saint who can do no wrong and can act. get away with worse things that other characters get punished for
Jack being: totally stupid; way, way, way too chatty (I know he's Irish but come on...); a closet chef (come on...)
Teal'c being: the source of all known... and unknown linguistic jokes; practically all brawn and nothing else
Cam being: too peppy, optimistic, and country boy
Vala being: too clingy and quiet

All of the above.

[*]Authors who can't take constructive criticism in reviews

Well, I've never encountered an author--whether one of my students or a fanfic writer--who didn't fully expect praise when he/she asked me to read something. So, I try to make less-than-flattering comments privately unless there's no way to email or send a private message via the archive. An author's plotting or characterization may have been weak--or OOC even for the way the fic started--but I try not to make public statements about same. I've found that authors respond well to criticism sent privately, but tend to get defensive when the same comments are public.

[*]Gushing reviews -- while flattering to the author, they can lull them into a false sense of security if they think they're great in the first place, and their writing style can remain static for years (hoo, boy) as well as their poor character portraits

On the flip side, I have left many "great chapter!" reviews. I know they're not very helpful; my only excuse is that I've learned to leave *something* so the author knows the story is being read.

[*]Characters being made OOC to fit 'ships, 'canon' or otherwise -- not saying anything more unless I get flamed heavily, so... *shrug*

I think we don't support the same 'ships,' but I agree completely. I read lots of S/J fics, but I groan when Jack (especially) or Sam (often) does or says something that is completely out of character just get the ship sailing.

However, I do see the point about fluffy fics. I don't tend to read them, so I appreciate when an author annouces at the outset that the story is pure marshmellow fluff. Saves me having to get the sticky mess off the monitor.

[*]Flame reviews -- if you don't like a 'ship, and it's clearly marked as such-and-such, dear God, no-one wants to know whether you don't like that 'ship and won't read it. Not interested

Yep.

[*]Unmarked 'ships -- where 'ships are not clearly marked in summaries/main work. For example, a SamDaniel friend of mine was reading a fic marked as CamVala, and didn't appreciate the SamJack wedding thrown in out of the blue

: )

I agree. I also resent a story being listed as one ship when the intent of the author is to disparage the relationship. I.E. A story listed as S/J when the point of the story is to show how one or the other character really belongs with another character. Given the general conventions of the way fanfiction is marked, "S/J" means a Sam and Jack relationship--maybe doomed, maybe ust, etc.; but if I see "S/J" I expect that the author is sympathetic to the relationship. Same for J/D, S/D, etc. To me it's fraud to list a story using conventional 'ship' designations and then trash one of the characters (with S/J, it's usually Sam, who is clearly not good enough for Jack). Fortunately, it doesn't happen often.


Oh, and I guess, MarySue's in general (although they're fairly rare now).

Well obviously everything is a personal preference but the point I was trying to make is that a peeve is a feeling that an element of a fic is incorrect whereas not liking a certain genre of fic is a personal preference and doesn't mean that genre of fic is "incorrect". I perhaps chose a poor example in trying to get the discussion back on track, however it was related to the recent discussion, given that it related to slash fic.

Plenty of people on here have posted peeves about characters being written OOC and I think that is a legitimate peeve. To use examples referred to previously, a writer may see Sam as being a weak and weepy woman and have her bursting into tears at every moment - but that's gonna bug readers because it is OOC from what we see of the character in the show and therefore can very much be considered to be poor writing.

Actually - ooops, I'm warming to my topic now! - that is probably one of my biggest peeves with fanfic; people writing the characters OOC. Given that the entire basis of fanfic is the characters and the universe of the show, that the point of fanfic is that we like something about these characters and this universe and what to explore them and write/read more about them, what on earth is the point of writing those characters OOC? If they are not at least vaguely recognisably the characters we see in the show, then really it's not even fanfic, is it? It's some random original character who happens to look like and have the same name and job as a character from the show!

Yes, that is the point, if the characters are not recognizable beyond the names attached to them, then it's probably time to write original fiction. However, sometimes authors will write long stories that allow the characters to evolve. That's okay as long as the evolution is believable in the context of the story.

So, I guess good reading always comes down to good writing.

Bucky

[Alipeeps]

And while on that subject: British-isms that take me out of the story. I can handle "-our" as in "favour" etc., but "whilst" and "amongst" put me over the edge, and when Jack or Daniel puts on a "jumper" all I can see is a sleeveless, loose-fitting, wide-cut dress. And "lounge room" sounds like a sleezey bar. LOL. I've adjusted --and make myself adjust when the story is otherwise well written, but doing so is an effort that jolts me out of the story every time.

Is whilst/amongst a Britishism? Is it not grammatically acceptable in US English? I like to think I'm usually pretty good at getting the dialogue etc right when writing for US characters but that's something I wasn't particularly aware of...

[KatG]

Is whilst/amongst a Britishism? Is it not grammatically acceptable in US English? I like to think I'm usually pretty good at getting the dialogue etc right when writing for US characters but that's something I wasn't particularly aware of...

Yep. We would say while or among.

Even dictionary.com says that both whilst and amongst are "chiefly British".

[KatG]

And while on that subject: British-isms that take me out of the story. I can handle "-our" as in "favour" etc., but "whilst" and "amongst" put me over the edge, and when Jack or Daniel puts on a "jumper" all I can see is a sleeveless, loose-fitting, wide-cut dress. And "lounge room" sounds like a sleezey bar. LOL. I've adjusted --and make myself adjust when the story is otherwise well written, but doing so is an effort that jolts me out of the story every time.

And, another British-ism which I guess I can't count as a pet peeve is the "was stood" and "was sat" construction. (as in "Jack was stood by the door" or "Daniel was sat in the briefing room waiting for the team." Apparently that's acceptable vernacular British English, but it's just, well, ungrammatical in American English where I would expect "Jack was standing by the door" or "Daniel was sitting in the briefing room...." But it's hard to fault people for something that is fundamental to their dialect (as opposed to looking up the American terms for "living room," "sofa," "sweater/pullover," etc).

Bucky

As long as Jack isn't wearing a jumper in the lounge I'm okay. The dialect doesn't bother me that much anymore. I just take a page from Oma Desala and figure that "if Daniel was stood amongst the ruins whilst talking to Jack then you immediately know the author is British."

[SamJackShipLover]

Also, about Sam, since I mentally project the physical appearance of the actors onto the characters, it's a pet peeve of mine if Sam is described as "petite," or "fragile" or delicate or having small hands, etc. AT may have been thin in the early seasons, but her appearance even then was neither "petite" nor "fragile."

On this subject. I once read a fic, and at one point Jacks eyes were described as I think green (or grey, not sure, but not brown). Geez, do you even watch the show? It was mentioned a couple of times and I couldn't get over it and stopped reading.

And I agree on the Sam description, I don't think I have seen those terms used a lot though. Some fic mention her not having a lot of curves, a boyish figure. Right ...

[Bucky]

As long as Jack isn't wearing a jumper in the lounge I'm okay. The dialect doesn't bother me that much anymore. I just take a page from Oma Desala and figure that "if Daniel was stood amongst the ruins whilst talking to Jack then you immediately know the author is British."

LOL Yep. Pretty much.


Bucky <-- Hammond Smilie just because.

[dipsofjazz]

And, another British-ism which I guess I can't count as a pet peeve is the "was stood" and "was sat" construction. (as in "Jack was stood by the door" or "Daniel was sat in the briefing room waiting for the team." Apparently that's acceptable vernacular British English, but it's just, well, ungrammatical in American English where I would expect "Jack was standing by the door" or "Daniel was sitting in the briefing room...."

Actually, that's just bad grammar in British English too.
I've noticed that it tends to be written by writers from England. Here in Scotland, although we do have many ways of our own to mess up the English language, saying "sat" instead of "sitting" isn't one of them.

[sbz]

And while on that subject: British-isms that take me out of the story. I can handle "-our" as in "favour" etc., but "whilst" and "amongst" put me over the edge, and when Jack or Daniel puts on a "jumper" all I can see is a sleeveless, loose-fitting, wide-cut dress. And "lounge room" sounds like a sleezey bar. LOL. I've adjusted --and make myself adjust when the story is otherwise well written, but doing so is an effort that jolts me out of the story every time.

And, another British-ism which I guess I can't count as a pet peeve is the "was stood" and "was sat" construction. (as in "Jack was stood by the door" or "Daniel was sat in the briefing room waiting for the team." Apparently that's acceptable vernacular British English, but it's just, well, ungrammatical in American English where I would expect "Jack was standing by the door" or "Daniel was sitting in the briefing room...." But it's hard to fault people for something that is fundamental to their dialect (as opposed to looking up the American terms for "living room," "sofa," "sweater/pullover," etc).

Bucky

Okay, that "was stood/sat" thing has always driven me up the wall. I never knew it was a British-ism, though, so I'll try to have more tolerance for it now. It always struck me as being bad writing and passive voice. "He stood at the door" or "she sat in the chair" is much more palatable.

But as for "favour" and "amongst", "whilst", etc, those aren't strictly British. I'm Canadian and those are perfeclty normal to me. And while I'd certainly never have a character say those words, except perhaps Teal'c, I've used them in the prose. And it wouldn't surprise me if some of them have filtered into the US, particularly the border states, to the point where they don't seem weird to some Americans.

On the other hand, there's lots of "isms" that never filtered into Canada/US. Like "torch" or "petrol" and those, I think, should be avoided more than the above because they clearly mark the characters, if the words are spoken, as British when they shouldn't be. It speaks to authenticity, I think, and therefore writers should make the effort to use the right region specific terms.

[starfox]

On this subject. I once read a fic, and at one point Jacks eyes were described as I think green (or grey, not sure, but not brown). Geez, do you even watch the show? It was mentioned a couple of times and I couldn't get over it and stopped reading.

That's one of my big pet peeves for fic based on TV/movies. We know what the character looks like. If you forget, check the actor bio on IMDB.

I hate it when McKay is described as having lost weight after the first year in Atlantis. DH gained weight/muscle mass between the seasons; if anything he looks a lot sturdier in later seasons than he did in early Season 1. But somehow, chubby Rodney pre-Atlantis and fitter Rodney after the first season has become fanon, and it bugs me to no end.

On the subject of things that changed as the show went on, utterly-clueless-as-to-Earth-slang-Teyla bothers me if the fic is set in the later seasons. She lives and works with these people; I'm supposed to believe she hasn't picked up on a few slang meanings, even if she doesn't use the phrases herself?

OOC interior voice irks me, too. I mention this because I recently attempted to read a fic and had to stop because all of the characters thought like high-school kids - OMG, does he like me? I like him, but he couldn't like me. Pine-ity pine pine pine. OMG he's looking at me!!!111111eleventyone!1 Oh, he does like me. Sexy time now. I'm exaggerating, of course, but it was pretty bad. I can deal with high-school AUs, but reading fics where the characters are supposed to be adults but are incapable of thinking like it is beyond me.

[jasminaGo]

On the subject of things that changed as the show went on, utterly-clueless-as-to-Earth-slang-Teyla bothers me if the fic is set in the later seasons. She lives and works with these people; I'm supposed to believe she hasn't picked up on a few slang meanings, even if she doesn't use the phrases herself?

That happenes with Teal'c too. If it's a story about early season 1, it's OK, it's all still new for him and he's learning. But a later Teal'c, no. The worst is post "Unending", after 60!!! years, he still doesn't understand anything, and SG1 has to spell things out for him. I've walked away from several stories like that.

[KatG]

Actually, that's just bad grammar in British English too.
I've noticed that it tends to be written by writers from England. Here in Scotland, although we do have many ways of our own to mess up the English language, saying "sat" instead of "sitting" isn't one of them.

I was told that it's common usage in Northern England. Once I got used to it, doesn't really bug me. My mind automatically fills in the correct usage.