The Female Team

[Womble]

You mean radio Atlantis? They couldn't do that unless the Gate was active anyway.

Which is why they should have had a team within radio contact distance. Remember how the SG-1 always had a backup team that stayed behind and guarded the gate for them?

[Nylon]

Can I just point out here we are talking about the team of people living on a million year old flying city in another galaxy fighting vampire zombie aliens. Some how I don't think exact scientific and historic accuracy in comparison to real world militarys is really that important. I think people need just accept just a little creative license on behalf of the writers.

But moving on, honestly the 20 year old male in me did get a good chuckle out of the first meeting in the forest but after the fist bump (or was it a terrorist jab?) I just looked on them as a SG team as any other. I also fail to see the point of people saying you should have had at least one male with no other justification as to why a male would be any more appropriate then a female. So in conclusion I liked the episode and the characters. O yeah and Vega shouldn't have been the one to die .

[Krichton]

That was my main problem with this episode. Shep looked completely surprised on meeting up with this team. As the military comander of Atlantis wouldn't he know his men and his women? Isn't it his job to do performance reviews and such? If they were new to Atlantis isn't that all the more reason to know them, I would think he would want to meet the people under his command before unleashing them on the Pegasus galaxy. Now I have no idea how the military works but it seemed off to me.

So is Shep just lazy and doesn't do any training of any kind of his staff or are we to belive that the there are so many teams that he just doesn't have time to know those under his command.

He may have known of them seperately but not as a team.

[Womble]

Can I just point out here we are talking about the team of people living on a million year old flying city in another galaxy fighting vampire zombie aliens. Some how I don't think exact scientific and historic accuracy in comparison to real world militarys is really that important. I think people need just accept just a little creative license on behalf of the writers.

The audience's willingness to suspend disbelief has its limits.

[Nylon]

The audience's willingness to suspend disbelief has its limits.

You're telling me thats the thing you find hardest to believe about this whole situation. I'm struggling to believe that a military force (fictional or otherwise) would have regulations that specify the exact gender make up of each team (keeping in mind the Carter, Cadman etc prove women are capable and of equal value of men in regards to carrying out the job).

[103]

You're telling me thats the thing you find hardest to believe about this whole situation. I'm struggling to believe that a military force (fictional or otherwise) would have regulations that specify the exact gender make up of each team (keeping in mind the Carter, Cadman etc prove women are capable and of equal value of men in regards to carrying out the job).

They do. Read up on US DOD Combat Arms regulations for sex.

[Womble]

You're telling me thats the thing you find hardest to believe about this whole situation.

One of the things.

[Nylon]

They do. Read up on US DOD Combat Arms regulations for sex.

Ok 2 quick points first,
1) I know Wikipedia isn't always 100% but for the purposes of this discussion its adequate.
2) Stargate canon states that Atlantis is an international operation thus would be governed by an international agreement of standards, not standard US military practice.

Moving on,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_military

Canada

Between 1979 and 1985 the role of women expanded further, with military colleges allowing women to enroll. 1981 saw the first female navigator and helicopter pilot, and in 1982 laws were passed ending all discrimination in employment, and combat related roles in the Canadian armed forces were opened for women, with no restrictions in place, with the exception of the submarine service. In 1986 further laws were created to the same effect. The following years saw Canada’s first female infantry soldier, first female gunner, and a female Brigadier-General.

New Zealand has no restrictions on roles for women in its defence force. They are able to serve in the Special Air Service, infantry, armour and artillery. This came into effect in 2001 by subordinate legislation.

Sweden

Since 1989 there are no gender restrictions in the Swedish military on access to military training or positions. They are allowed to serve in all parts of the military and in all positions, including combat.

It has been demonstrated again and again that women are capable of carrying out any military role, front line special forces combat or otherwise, to the same standard as any male. Given that why would it make any difference if a team was all male, 50/50 or all female?

[Womble]

Ok 2 quick points first,
1) I know Wikipedia isn't always 100% but for the purposes of this discussion its adequate.
2) Stargate canon states that Atlantis is an international operation thus would be governed by an international agreement of standards, not standard US military practice.

Moving on,







It has been demonstrated again and again that women are capable of carrying out any military role, front line special forces combat or otherwise, to the same standard as any male. Given that why would it make any difference if a team was all male, 50/50 or all female?

You are confusing two unrelated things here- recruitment vs. combat deployment. If a combat unit accepts female recruits, it does not follow that it will actually deploy them in combat in all-female squads.

Women are on average weaker than men. It's a fact. All armies which began accepting female recruits as a matter of routine had to develop separate training routines for them, with lowered demands, especially regarding upper body strength, which is one of the more important physical traits for a soldier (in case you didn't know, war consists mainly of carrying heavy loads over long distances). An all-female squad is inevitably limited in the combined weight it can carry compared to a mixed-gender or an all-male squad, meaning it has to limit the types of armaments and the amount of ammunition it can carry. That makes it a bad idea- despite the fact that individually, women are often capable of combat service.

I've seen how the IDF deploys female soldiers in combat situations: they are mainly K9 or other specialized professionals attached to all-male infantry units, or they are added for sensitivity purposes (body search of Muslim women during anti-terror operations in the territories, etc.). Units like the Caracal with its 70% female manpower are guarding non-volatile borders and only called upon when there is a specific need for female soldiers due to the aforementioned sensitivity issues.

[Flyboy]

I guess this really depends on your definition of extremely attractive. Vega and Porter are the only ones I viewed as being extrememly attractive. While Teldy and Dusty I thought were pleasant to look at, I did not find them extremely attractive.

However, a lot of people on this forum apparently do...

Well, from my viewpoint, the majority of the military men are rather attractive on Gateverse whether they are on teams or not. And I would venture to say that there are more than what is statisitically higher than in RL militaries.
The scientists on the other hand, alot less of them are physically attractive.

Not that I am an expert on male attractiveness, but take a look at some of the background SG teams over the years, in both shows - the US Marines from Broca Divide as an example.

Integration may be much more likely unless there is a military reason for doing so such as an all black team being less inconsipcous on a mission in a certain area than a mixed or all white team.

So what's the military reason for an all female team?

Rarity issues aside;

I don't see the size of someones arms as being a good argument for why there can't be an all female team. If there was an all female team, they would be at similar physical strengths and then for the team their physical prowless should be a non-issue. The strength issues seems to come into play when there are men and women mixed and men feel that they have to carry most of the physical burden.

But again, the primary reason is sheer numbers, any female team would have had to be DELIBERATLY put together with the IC intending to have an all female team, because frankly, that's the only way you can get one. I'd like to refer you to Womble's posts, just before this one (a first, actually, usuakky he and I disagree ) but he makes an accuratce assesment of female strength. Strength wise, yes, you can have some pretty hardass women, I don't deny, and yes, they may for example be more hardass than myself, and whilst my strength capabilities are actually by RAF standards good and way above pass rate, I'm certainly not SOF and that's fine. I'm not one to be intimidated by strong women or strong female leaders. But, there's a damn good reason why the Paratroopers I know are built like, pardon my french, brick ****ters. Apart from in the women's body building championships, you'll be hard pressed to find a woman of the same raw brute strength and physical prowess as these blokes, something which I think is extremely important for both SOF and SF.

Sure the all female team might all have similar strengths, but then, why settle for less? An all female science team? Fine, an all female military Signals unit? Fine, but when it comes to soldiering, the presence of the sort of marines who were seen escorting Shep's team in the Shrine are essential, and would in fact back up those previously mentioned units.

I have a family aquaintaince who is in the special forces and he is built more like Sheppard then a beefy soldier and he does just fine not having arms the size of my thighs!

Special Forces, or Special Operations Forces? What's his role?

And those are viewpoints that IMO need to change.

I refer you once more to Womble's posts, he's summarised this issue better than me.

An assumption is being made that she is more inclined to females because of the look she gave Sheppard. The look and her comments could have also been caused because she was irriated with people making comments about her team being all female.

It appeared to me that she was being smug and was on a "girl power" trip.

I agree her attitude was not the best but I have seen men portrayed that way on TV as well so I'm guessing they were trying to make Dusty fit what they saw as a sterotypical grunt military person. I would much have prefered Dusty's character to be much more serious but I'm not going to be upset (not saying you are) that she isn't more serious.

But they key thing here, is that she wasn't some grunt sent to Vietnam through conscription, she was a SERGEANT, ie, YEARS of experience, who was in one of the most elite units in the world... that sort of position would not be suitable for someone like Dusty.

Kind of an aside: I don't know much about the British military so I can't speak to that but there is a significant black population in the American military as has been pointed out so that changes things. I'm also not as well versed on British race relations but it just wouldn't be as big of a deal nor would it be particularly surprising to have an all black team of this nature in the American military. I guess it's not as neat a comparison because I don't think race is viewed to be nearly as divisive as gender.

But we all have our quibbles and this is something I can overlook because I'm not as knowledgeable about the actual standards. In the episode, their gender didn't really come into play story-wise so I just let it go.

There's generally no problems with race relations in Britain, I don't deny there's the odd arsehole who has a problem with somebody of a different skin colour to them, but frankly most people don't give a damn. A person is a person, regardless of ethnicity. The only problem IS, we just don't have that many non-white people WANTING to join the military or police, so their presence is minimal, there's one gentleman of African origins, and one of Indian origins on my squadron. Last year the squadron was entirely white. Now I appreciate it may be different in the US, but I was using ethnicity as an example, if we wanted to put together an all-black team, it would be difficult, and we'd have to DELIBERATLY do it. Where as an all-white team would be standard, not because of discrimination you understand. This is the same argument I'm using for an all female team, as it stands, even though I believe there are OTHER reasons for not having an all female team, the most relvant practically speaking is that, like an all black unit here, you would have to DELIBERATLY try to put together an all female team, unlike an all male team, which is BOUND to crop up because of numbers.

I personally believe that mixed teams, possibly not for certain situations, obviously the Royal Marines can NEVER take women unless they tone down their operations and training, (no redding please - biological fact), however, I respect women as leaders. I'm going to have to generalise a bit here and I apologise, but we need to accept that men and woman ARE NOT the same. Equal Respect is a must, but Equality is fiction. I cannot give birth, and women are naturally less powerful than men in terms of strength. We have different approaches to things, women are FAR more tactful usually, men are far more headstrong. A woman emphasises, a man offers solutions, etc etc etc. A mixed team offers a variety of view points, of approaches, it tones down the potential for male a gung-ho situation. I generally, with some exceptions approve of mixed teams, and in situations when it is possible and not dangerous for a woman to be in a team (by danger I mean in terms of can she do the job, the Royal Marines argument again), I think a mixed team is more beneficial than a single sex team, with obvious exceptions. That INCLUDES an all female team, which would have significant weaknesses from being uni-sex, just as an all male team might lose out from not having a female input. But all male teams happen, either due to biological constraints, or just simply numbers, not enough females to go round, it can't be helped, but there's no excuse for deliberatly choosing an all female team.

Particularly when the Sergeant and the Captain prove themselves to be incapable or unsuited to the job.

[jyh]

You're telling me thats the thing you find hardest to believe about this whole situation.

Great point, Nylon. We're talking about a television show in which an ancient alien device is used to travel between planets, can even be rigged to travel between galaxies, and in which humans are fighting a race of life-sucking beings who evolved from big, honking bugs.

And a small team of all-female soldiers is what people have a hard time believing?? I know that the military is one thing in this show that IS real, so that's something people can identify with. And c'mon, whether it's likely or not, whether it's common or not, an all-female SG team IS within the realm of possibility. We're not talking a whole squadron here, just a small, four-person team. It can happen. In fact, who knows, maybe it already has, somewhere.

And the episode already aired, it can't be changed, and you either like it / accept it, or not. Chances are, once opinions are formed, nobody's mind is going to be changed anyway.

[hisg1fans]

I personally believe that mixed teams, possibly not for certain situations, obviously the Royal Marines can NEVER take women unless they tone down their operations and training, (no redding please - biological fact), however, I respect women as leaders.....

Just curious. Do think the US Marines are a sup-par force because they accept women?

I know there is a strong rivalry between Royal Marines and US Marines, but I also thought they held mutual respect for each other.

I agree with the above poster who emphasizes this is a squad of four. On a recon mission. Attached to a larger science mission. It is well within the realm of possibility that all four are female. One reason Sheppard may not have known who the Major picked is this is not a permanently assigned team. We've seen Vega in another role. Why couldn't all four have just been picked for this one mission? He just gave the order to 'Pick a team Major.' And he didn't know exactly who she picked that day.

As much as this show doesn't even try to be close to any type of military reality, I wouldn't start to applying any kind of real-life military comparison. I agree with your sentiment though. I think Atlantis should have tried a little harder to make the military stuff more life-like.

SG-1 used to at least try to portray military aspects correctly and, in a lot of ways, they succeeded. IMO Atlantis never even tried to portray anything close to real military actions, attitudes, rules, etc. Just look at Sheppard. He would never have made it out of officer candidate school, let alone been given the Atlantis assignment.

[Flyboy]

Just curious. Do think the US Marines are a sup-par force because they accept women?

I know there is a strong rivalry between Royal Marines and US Marines, but I also thought they held mutual respect for each other.

I agree with the above poster who emphasizes this is a squad of four. On a recon mission. Attached to a larger science mission. It is well within the realm of possibility that all four are female. One reason Sheppard may not have known who the Major picked is this is not a permanently assigned team. We've seen Vega in another role. Why couldn't all four have just been picked for this one mission? He just gave the order to 'Pick a team Major.' And he didn't know exactly who she picked that day.

As much as this show doesn't even try to be close to any type of military reality, I wouldn't start to applying any kind of real-life military comparison. I agree with your sentiment though. I think Atlantis should have tried a little harder to make the military stuff more life-like.

SG-1 used to at least try to portray military aspects correctly and, in a lot of ways, they succeeded. IMO Atlantis never even tried to portray anything close to real military actions, attitudes, rules, etc. Just look at Sheppard. He would never have made it out of officer candidate school, let alone been given the Atlantis assignment.

It's not possible to compare the Royal Marines to the US Marine Corps. They're completely different in terms of recruitment and in terms of how they operate.

The US regards the Marines as a fourth military service, and they truely are in the US. They are a massively large force on par in size with the entire British Army. Realistically, the USMC are soldiers, from what I understand, the USMC is supposedly more "elite" than the US Army. Their role is vastly different, I believe during the Afghanistan conflict a USMC General claimed that the marines were not just a naval force, they were a land, sea and air force, and would do things their way.

The USMC, at the end of the day, is an army. Not THE army, but an Army.

The Royal Marines however are not. They are not a fourth service, they are part of the Royal Navy. They are also a commando unit, NOT an army in the way the USMC are. You will never see the Royal Marines undertaking massive operations on the scale that the USMC might in terms of seizing territory and mounting a campaign. The Royal Marines are essentially (but not officially) a Special Operations Force (NOT special forces) in their own right, much like the Royal Air Force Regiment is in a different way... The RM only really engage in commando roles and warfare on a much smaller level than the brigade size warfare undertaken by the USMC.

I would argue that the RM are indeed tougher than the USMC (as a whole), and that is no disrespect to the USMC what so ever, it's just like saying something like the Navy Seals are tougher than the US Army, it's two very different operational organisations which are unfair to compare. It's much more realistic to actually compare the USMC to the British Army, because of a) size, but b) they appear to be a lot more similar imo than the US Army and the British Army.

The USMC is not a Special Operations Force, not even close, and there's debate as to whether the RM actually are, but if they're not, they're damn close, and as a commando unit I think they're worthy of the title. I believe it would be fairer to compare the RM to the USMC's MSOSG.


I've digressed a bit. It's not about believing an organisation to be sub par because they accept women, I apologise if I've come across like that, but I have no problem with women in the services at all. My flight commander is female. But, the weight carried by Royal Marines in training and on operations, is far in excess of the British Army, and most likely the USMC, and has been proven that should a female carry the same loads for the time required in service, her spine would be permanently damaged because of its difference in shape to a male's.

I do not believe the USMC to be "sub par", for the same reason I would not assume the British Army to be "sub par". The RM and the USMC do not do the same thing.

[jyh]

JI agree with the above poster who emphasizes this is a squad of four. On a recon mission. Attached to a larger science mission. It is well within the realm of possibility that all four are female. One reason Sheppard may not have known who the Major picked is this is not a permanently assigned team. We've seen Vega in another role. Why couldn't all four have just been picked for this one mission? He just gave the order to 'Pick a team Major.' And he didn't know exactly who she picked that day.

Good point. Also, when picking the team, she could've said "I'll take Vega, Porter, and Mehra for this mission." Out of all the military people on Atlantis, and all the comings & goings of personnel, it's conceivable that Shepard might not have realized that they were all females.

[sweetsamurai]

I absolutely loved Sgt. Dusty! I wish they would put her on the team or put her in the movies!!!! Or in Stargate Universe - that would be awesome!