I see John's "Only my friends matter"-mentality is still alive and well...

[Ouroboros]

The thing is to that if it was Sheppard leading Teyla into the Wraith hive he would have had no problem with it at all. He's dragged her along on more of his half cocked plans than I can even count and even right here in this episode he came up with the brilliant idea of destroying the whole agreement and getting his hive shooting at hers just so he could try to rescue her before one or both ships exploded. The reason she needed rescuing? Well the ship she was on went to hyperspace so that clearly must mean she's messed something up and he has to come charging to the rescue to "save" her.

Had he actually succeeded in doing what he was planning he would have actually caused the mission to fail, plus destroyed their relationship with Todd and ruined probably their best if not only chance to get that new drug out there.

I think that it's not just a case of him worrying about Teyla's safety here, as we've seen numerous times in the past that he's fine with her being in danger so long as he's leading her. I think it's more a case that on some subconcious level he thinks that she's not as capable on her own as he is and therefore she needs his protection.

[Snookie16]

Hey, who cares about Pegasus if you have to risk the life of someone you know, right? I'm so tired of this "Oh noes! It's a friend! Fight to the death!"-mentality. If it's some unknown person, then it's "Meh. We'll try.". If it's a friend, well, that changes everything.

Isn't he supposed to be a hero. I mean, this is the future of Pegasus we're talking about. And suddenly, because Teyla will be risking her life, John's all "You can't do this!".

This episode had a feeling of the old episodes of Atlantis especailly the John and Teyla scences. Those things brought me back to Lifeline with Elizabeth he said something along the same lines to Elizabeth before they went off to get the ZPM. It just shows that these women mean a lot to John, but also he just pointing out the risk and they do not have to do the mission. He was a little like Elizabeth all over again.

[Pandora's_Box]

How about him disregarding Teyla stating that she realizes what she's about to do? How about him bombarding her with "It might not work. You might die. Blah blah blah!", stuff that's all common sense?

There's more to this than just reading the lines and seeing what's on the surface. You seem to be singularly focused on John's mentality in, not only this scene, but in general, and are completely disregarding what's more important here - Teyla's mentality.

She's a mother. She was one even before her son was born. And by that I mean that it is as instinctual to her as breathing to be the nurturer and the protector. She may not be the leader of her people in name anymore, but she still thinks primarily in terms of what she can do for others. More often than not, that is her primary concern, to the detriment of her own health and well-being sometimes.

John apparently understands this, as well he should considering their time working together. And so he takes a certain approach with her; he goes over the details, the requirements, her sacrifices, makes sure she fully realizes what she's committing to. And I think that now that she has a son, he considers it even more important to have her back - to watch out for her when she doesn't watch out for herself.

She may have admitted to John last season that she didn't think she'd be ready to risk her life for fear that she would leave her son motherless, but a lifetime of action and instinct do not go away overnight. It's who she is and what she is and she can't help it.

As her friend, he owes it to her to keep the unspoken promise between them - that if she won't look after herself, then he will, especially now that they both have to think of her son.

How come? How come there wasn't a problem with the Wraith maybe enslaving people 'til Teyla's life was on the line?

Teyla's life was always on the line. So was his along with everyone else's. But this was a dangerous mission with dangerous consequences. Screw this up and not only would their alliance with Todd have been destroyed, but Teyla would be dead, they'd all be dead.

Where would that have left the Pegasus Galaxy?

How about the fact that John had a long conversation where he kept saying "This plan might fail. Let's wait or not do it at all!"?

Because this wasn't their original plan. That is a vital distiction.

This new plan was rife with so much more danger and had a ton more room for ruin and disaster. Not doing it at all would have been better than doing it and failing.

John was being responsible. Yes, as a friend, but also as CO.

[Ethell]

But that's exactly my point. No objections, at all, 'til Teyla would be put at risk and then it's all "Don't do it! It might not work! Wah wah wah!". Well what if it does work? Millions of lives saved (at least from death).

How about this part:
SHEPPARD: Look, even if this works, even if all the Wraith stop feeding, you think they're gonna become nice and friendly overnight? No. They're gonna have a massive technological advantage.

Suddenly, this plan isn't good at all. Suddenly, maybe they shouldn't even do it since it might not be a solution at all, it might make things work. Yet John didn't voice any of these objections prior to this (as Teyla noted).

That's because it's not the same plan anymore! The original plan was talking to Todd about it, and see what would happen, if he could convince other Wraith, etc etc. Sheppard had those objections before:he wasn't sure it would work, he wasn't even sure it would really help the people of the Pegasus galaxy, but hey, why not try anyway because it wouldn't cost them anything.

Now with this new, more dangerous plan, it's highly possible it will cost them something, so of course he's taking a step back and voicing his objections. He's just thinking: Is it worth losing someone's life over something that might make no difference at all, while right now the Wraith aren't such a threat anyway? I'm not blaming him for thinking this, but I get that you do.

And I don't think it has anything to do particularly with Teyla, or the fact that she's his friend, anyway. I think he'd have said the same for anyone asked to go on this mission on Atlantis. It's pretty much part of his job to ensure the protection of the people on Atlantis, after all, and I think it was this responsibility talking when he pointed out his objections to Teyla. I don't see anything wrong with him doing his job.

[Heaven]

I really don't see your point

Sheppard is not responsible for the people of the Pegasus galaxy, only for himself and the expedition.
and he's not sacrificing anyone, he simply refuses to sacrifice from himself and his friends to help them, which is entirely his choice.
at the end of the day it's every man for himself, the weak don't always survive it's part of nature.

I do however agree that Sheppard lets his emotions impair his judgment, but that seems to be a trend with all stargate leaders.
even Caldwell succumbed to a stupid call this season.

[FallenAngelII]

Stuff.

So you're saying John was questioning Teyla's judgment 'cause she just had a child? That's a copout and you know it.

She may have admitted to John last season that she didn't think she'd be ready to risk her life for fear that she would leave her son motherless, but a lifetime of action and instinct do not go away overnight. It's who she is and what she is and she can't help it.

Doesn't this work against your argument? Now a mother, she's more reluctant to risk her life recklessly.

Teyla's life was always on the line. So was his along with everyone else's. But this was a dangerous mission with dangerous consequences. Screw this up and not only would their alliance with Todd have been destroyed, but Teyla would be dead, they'd all be dead.

Funny, I seem to remember John not having a problem at all with the plan even before that. There was no fear of screwing up the alliance. John didn't seem to care about that. Todd mentioned having to convince the queen, blah, blah. Not a peep out of John.

"Oh yeah, only Teyla can do it."
"Like hell!"

Where would that have left the Pegasus Galaxy?

Yes, let's never take any risks at all unless John feels like it (he goes in suicide missions on a monthly basis, it seems) because some heroes might die. Just because the show makes it seem like SGA-1 is invincible doesn't mean that even if they die, the galaxy is doomed.

And lest I remind you, John didn't mind Todd's alliance falling apart before Teyla's life was put in jeopardy so he didn't really care about the alliance being at risk.

And it's not like their alliance with Todd is an alliance with his alliance. And what does that alliance bring to them, anyway? They work together sometimes. If the alliance breaks, so be it. It's not like the fate of the galaxy depends on it.

Because this wasn't their original plan. That is a vital distiction.

The point here is why John is against it, not that the plan changed.

This new plan was rife with so much more danger and had a ton more room for ruin and disaster. Not doing it at all would have been better than doing it and failing.

Yes, the danger was Teyla's life.

John was being responsible. Yes, as a friend, but also as CO.

Funny, I seem to remember that Teyla doesn't take orders from John. For another thing, his words speak differently. They're rife selfish "Not without my friends" mentality.

That's because it's not the same plan anymore! The original plan was talking to Todd about it, and see what would happen, if he could convince other Wraith, etc etc. Sheppard had those objections before:he wasn't sure it would work, he wasn't even sure it would really help the people of the Pegasus galaxy, but hey, why not try anyway because it wouldn't cost them anything.

Funny, then why didn't John, for example, voice the concern that maybe nothing will change, maybe the Wraith will just enslave people before Teyla's life was put in danger?

Why didn't he care about then? Apparently, once Teyla's life was maybe on line, suddenly that risk was really important all of a sudden. Before that, John was all prepared to risk possible enslavement of the Pegasus galaxy.

It wouldn't cost them anything? How about the enslavement of the galaxy? So John was willing to risk it, but once Teyla's life was put in jeopardy, he's no linger willing? Isn't that what I've been saying all along?!

Now with this new, more dangerous plan, it's highly possible it will cost them something, so of course he's taking a step back and voicing his objections.

What, what will it cost them? That's right, Teyla's life. No, really, the only thing of real importance to them that was at risk was Teyla's life. No more twisting of the facts, that's it, plain and simple.

Before, he was prepared to risk the entire galaxy's freedom. Teyla's life's on the line? Nuh-uh.

He's just thinking: Is it worth losing someone's life over something that might make no difference at all, while right now the Wraith aren't such a threat anyway? I'm not blaming him for thinking this, but I get that you do.

The Wraith aren't such a threat? They're still culling people everywhere. Every single Hive culls occasionally. People die every day because of Wraith feeding. That's a huge threat. At least the Goa'uld just kept people as slaves and then warred and killed those who didn't obey.

They never attacked random civilians and ate them for fun. This plan could possibly save millions. And might I remind you that John has personally come up with, supported and gone on missions with only a fraction the percentage of success as this one?!

But that was without one of his friends' lives on the line. Which is why it's so friggin' hypocritical.

And I don't think it has anything to do particularly with Teyla, or the fact that she's his friend, anyway. I think he'd have said the same for anyone asked to go on this mission on Atlantis.

O RLY? Random marine? You think he'd be so ardent to talk them out of it? I remember him sending people on riskier missions before with a smaller chance of success and a small payout.

It's pretty much part of his job to ensure the protection of the people on Atlantis, after all, and I think it was this responsibility talking when he pointed out his objections to Teyla. I don't see anything wrong with him doing his job.

Yet he himself takes his own team and sends other teams on missions much more dangerous than this one all the time. Hmmm...

[Mitchell82]

How would Atlantis randomly be put at more danger than before? It's not like they'll know Teyla is from Atlantis.

Why wouldn't they? They already know that Teyla has the gift and that she is part of the Atlantis team.

With this logic, Atlantis should never go near the Wraith since they'd be risking Earth every single time.

That's not what he/she meant.

Go and re-watch the initial part of the conversation. That was not making sure of it, that was actively trying to talk her out of it.

Wrong that was trying to get her to slow down a bit and be more careful.

But that's exactly my point. No objections, at all, 'til Teyla would be put at risk and then it's all "Don't do it! It might not work! Wah wah wah!". Well what if it does work? Millions of lives saved (at least from death).

Because the whole situation had changed since then. This was by no means the idea of the original plan.

Yes, life would be better if no one ever complained about anything and loved Stargate Atlantis unconditionally.

The difference is there is not one thing you never complain about. You gripe and complain about every single episode and every single situation in the episodes.

It's human nature to be more concerned and care more about the life if one close to you. It's a great character flaw to be prepared to disregard the lives of millions for the life of one just because they're a friend.

If that is what had happened I'd agree the difference is that is not what happened. You are changing the events of the episode to suit your agenda like always.

I don't know why so many people are forgetting what was actually said. John didn't just want to inform her or anything, the beginning of the conversation was a blatant attempt to talk her out of it. That or the writers just wrote it badly.

Yes because it was a huge risk that A) we hadn't planed for and B) was hard for him to accept but not a blatant disregard for millions of lives.

Yes, but General Hammond would never endanger the lives of millions or even many for the lives of one or a few, now would he? In fact, I remember him ordering people not to go on rescue missions several times because of this.

Yes but there were times that he did also. Heroes is an example.

Caring about certain people more is OK. It really is, there's nothing wrong with it. I value the lives of my friends over the lives of, say, some random Koreans. But, the lives of millions Koreans vs. my friends'? Heck, my life vs. millions of Koreans? I wouldn't hesitate to save the Koreans.

Really? PM me when you are asked to sacrifice your life for millions of Koreans and then we'll talk.

[Pandora's_Box]

So you're saying John was questioning Teyla's judgment 'cause she just had a child? That's a copout and you know it.

What I'm saying (and I thought I made this perfectly clear) is that Teyla is a natural born leader. I was making the case that her personality has always been (even before her son was born) that of a mother to her people. She feels responsible for people and as such would risk her life for them. And has.

You seem to be only garnering from my comments that which you think strengthens your argument and you've been doing it with other people too. Please stop. I wasn't being overly cryptic or hard to decipher at all. I rather think I was being very plain.

John was looking out for her because she looks out for everyone else and needs someone to watch her back for a change. Plain and simple.

Doesn't this work against your argument? Now a mother, she's more reluctant to risk her life recklessly.

Only if you misconstrue it as you have.

Obviously, she wasn't less reluctant to risk her life because she decided to go along with this plan.

I saw John as taking the time to make sure she took the time to assess every angle of her decision.

Funny, I seem to remember John not having a problem at all with the plan even before that. There was no fear of screwing up the alliance. John didn't seem to care about that. Todd mentioned having to convince the queen, blah, blah. Not a peep out of John.

That was because he thought the Queen leading Todd's Hive was Wraith. The fact that she would in fact be Teyla changed matters a great deal.

You don't think things became a might trickier now that not only did they have to convince the Primary to agree to this plan, but that they had to do so while also attempting to trick the Primary into thinking that Teyla was actually a Wraith.

No, but you're right. That's easy. Why should John have been worried about a measly thing like that?

And it's not like their alliance with Todd is an alliance with his alliance. And what does that alliance bring to them, anyway? They work together sometimes. If the alliance breaks, so be it. It's not like the fate of the galaxy depends on it.

Actually.....yeah it sorta does.

If they don't have the alliance, then they don't have the means to distribute the new Wraith cure. If they don't do that then they're back at square one. And if you'll recall, square one isn't exactly filled with rainbows and butterflies, but with life-sucking aliens killing hundreds of thousands of humans.

The point here is why John is against it, not that the plan changed.

The fact that the plan changed, is the only thing that matters.

A plan is not a plan is not a plan. You can't go about undergoing every single mission in the same way. The same rules never apply every single time. Things change. Circumstances change. Therefore considerations have to change or the CO (John) risks killing everyone.

That's a no brainer.

Yes, the danger was Teyla's life.

No, if Teyla would have died, then everything would have been at risk.

Todd would be dead. The alliance would be kaput. And every mean Wraith in the galaxy would think that the humans had it in mind to sabotage that Alliance, takeover the Wraiths, and destroy them from the inside.

Stop looking at just one aspect of this. There are causes and effects, repercussions that ripple out and effect everything tied to the one single act of Teyla assuming the guise of a Wraith.

What, what will it cost them? That's right, Teyla's life. No, really, the only thing of real importance to them that was at risk was Teyla's life. No more twisting of the facts, that's it, plain and simple.

Before, he was prepared to risk the entire galaxy's freedom. Teyla's life's on the line? Nuh-uh.

No seriously. I don't know how many times I can reiterate that it wasn't just about Teyla. That this wasn't the original plan they had worked hard to iron out.

Cause and effect. Ripples. This was about more than just Teyla. It may have seemed like that was all he was thinking about, but that assumption is wrong.

Cause and effect, lady. Look into it. It's an important concept.

[NoobTau'ri]

The thing is to that if it was Sheppard leading Teyla into the Wraith hive he would have had no problem with it at all. He's dragged her along on more of his half cocked plans than I can even count and even right here in this episode he came up with the brilliant idea of destroying the whole agreement and getting his hive shooting at hers just so he could try to rescue her before one or both ships exploded. The reason she needed rescuing? Well the ship she was on went to hyperspace so that clearly must mean she's messed something up and he has to come charging to the rescue to "save" her.

Had he actually succeeded in doing what he was planning he would have actually caused the mission to fail, plus destroyed their relationship with Todd and ruined probably their best if not only chance to get that new drug out there.

I think that it's not just a case of him worrying about Teyla's safety here, as we've seen numerous times in the past that he's fine with her being in danger so long as he's leading her. I think it's more a case that on some subconcious level he thinks that she's not as capable on her own as he is and therefore she needs his protection.

It has also to do with machismo and making Sheppard relevant by portraying him as a hero. After all, this is a show where scientists rule. McKay has done more by himself to destroy the Asurans and cripple the Wraith with his scientific knowledge than all the macho grunts of the expedition put together have. The same can be said for Dr.Beckett and his retrovirus which, although being a failure, set in motion a set of events by creating the hybrid Michael which could ultimately be the Wraith's doom.

I also suspect that the fan girls are to blame here. Even if it's not PC to say it, many women still fantasize being saved by the knight in shinning armor, and Sheppard is portrayed as strapping, charming and cocky because that's how the female audience wants to see it's male leads. It is far more rewarding for the fantasies of the female fans for Sheppard to risk the lives of all his men and the success of the mission to save the damsel in distress than do the logical thing of considering her a colateral and that the cost-benefit of saving her is not worth it. Sober reality is not very romantic, methinks.

[Ethell]

Funny, then why didn't John, for example, voice the concern that maybe nothing will change, maybe the Wraith will just enslave people before Teyla's life was put in danger?

He didn't voice them before because then the worst that could happen is the Wraith enslaving people and yes, while that's bad, you have to consider that

1) What's stopping them from doing it now? In fact, we know they already do it for a small portion of their victims.

2) Is getting enslaved worse than getting culled? In my opinion the two are about as bad.

So really, why not try when you're considering that things couldn't really go worse, and possibly better?

And I think PB explained well in her previous post what it would cost them once the plan had changed. And no, it's not just Teyla's life.

The Wraith aren't such a threat?

We know the Wraith are fighting each other, and it is said they're now fearful of culling since they don't know who has been infected by the Hoffan drug. I agree everything's not rainbows and butterflies and that people are still dying because of them, but you have to admit they're less powerful than in the first seasons.

And might I remind you that John has personally come up with, supported and gone on missions with only a fraction the percentage of success as this one?!

But that was without one of his friends' lives on the line. Which is why it's so friggin' hypocritical.

His friends' lives are on the line every time he and his team go on missions with 'only a fraction of the percentage of success as this one', and he usually accepts that. So that kind of negates your point, doesn't it?

O RLY? Random marine? You think he'd be so ardent to talk them out of it? I remember him sending people on riskier missions before with a smaller chance of success and a small payout.

I'd like an example of him sending marines on a mission with a really small chance of success without first considering the ramifications, importance and consequences of it. Please. Cause Sheppard never stroke me as the 'I don't care about sending Red Shirts to death' kind of guy.

Yet he himself takes his own team and sends other teams on missions much more dangerous than this one all the time. Hmmm...

Yes, because he's the chief military officer on Atlantis and it's his call whether a mission is too dangerous or not. Most often than not he decides the possible reward outweighs the danger. Even if it's at the cost of on of his teammates' life.

[FallenAngelII]

Why wouldn't they? They already know that Teyla has the gift and that she is part of the Atlantis team.

Yes, because the Wraith would know it was Teyla. It's so easy to see!

Wrong that was trying to get her to slow down a bit and be more careful.

Funny, he didn't even say that 'til halfway through the conversation. The entire first part sounded more like trying to talk her out of it.

Because the whole situation had changed since then. This was by no means the idea of the original plan.

The only thing that changed was Teyla's life being in danger.

The difference is there is not one thing you never complain about. You gripe and complain about every single episode and every single situation in the episodes.

I "complain" about things I find "complainable". If you don't like it, don't read my posts. No one's forcing you to. I'm sorry if I'm not all "I love this show!" when it's so rife with flaws.

If that is what had happened I'd agree the difference is that is not what happened. You are changing the events of the episode to suit your agenda like always.

More like you are.

Yes because it was a huge risk that A) we hadn't planed for and B) was hard for him to accept but not a blatant disregard for millions of lives.

1) Yes, the risk being Teyla's life, pretty much.
2) Yes it was. How was it not? A successful mission could end up saving millions.

Yes but there were times that he did also. Heroes is an example.

Yes, but John does it all the time.

Really? PM me when you are asked to sacrifice your life for millions of Koreans and then we'll talk.

Just because you can't see yourself doing it doesn't mean I won't do it if push comes to shove.

What I'm saying (and I thought I made this perfectly clear) is that Teyla is a natural born leader. I was making the case that her personality has always been (even before her son was born) that of a mother to her people. She feels responsible for people and as such would risk her life for them. And has.

But never recklessly and stupidly.

You seem to be only garnering from my comments that which you think strengthens your argument and you've been doing it with other people too. Please stop. I wasn't being overly cryptic or hard to decipher at all. I rather think I was being very plain.

I was skimming and misread. Sorry.

I saw John as taking the time to make sure she took the time to assess every angle of her decision.

Funny. To me, it still sounds like him just trying to talk her out of it. It's obvious John hadn't really thought it true since in the end, he went along with it. So he didn't think it true, Teyla had to debate him on it.

So who's the one who didn't think things through? And I still find it funny that so many don't think that the opening part of his "debate" sounds pretty much like a huge "Don't do it!".

That was because he thought the Queen leading Todd's Hive was Wraith. The fact that she would in fact be Teyla changed matters a great deal.

What great deal?! Other than, obviously, Teyla's life being in danger (which is my whole point)?

You don't think things became a might trickier now that not only did they have to convince the Primary to agree to this plan, but that they had to do so while also attempting to trick the Primary into thinking that Teyla was actually a Wraith.

Funny, John never voiced that concern. Never once did he say "What if you can't trick her?". It was all "What if it doesn't work?" and "We don't have to do this." You're just speculating.

And still, risking one (two, actually) life for the lives of millions. It's still just about him not wanting to risk Teyla's life (which is my entire argument). What if it succeeds? Millions of lives saved.

If they don't have the alliance, then they don't have the means to distribute the new Wraith cure.

And they'd be able to do it if the Queen didn't agree how? Also, John specifically said "We don't have to do this.". He specifically said it wasn't necessary at all.

Obviously this thing wasn't high on his priority list. He specifically claimed it was unnecessary and they could just sit back and watch the Wraith kill each other as a way to talk Teyla out of it.

If they don't do that then they're back at square one. And if you'll recall, square one isn't exactly filled with rainbows and butterflies, but with life-sucking aliens killing hundreds of thousands of humans.

Without this, the only way according to Todd, they didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of doing it. Unless, of course, they use another retrovirus, at which point consent wouldn't be necessary.

The fact that the plan changed, is the only thing that matters.

No, why John thought it was bad that the plan had changed is what matters.

A plan is not a plan is not a plan. You can't go about undergoing every single mission in the same way. The same rules never apply every single time. Things change. Circumstances change. Therefore considerations have to change or the CO (John) risks killing everyone.

John has risked his own and the lives of others on plans with less chances of success.

No, if Teyla would have died, then everything would have been at risk.

What would have possibly been at risk if Teyla had died vs. them not doing anything?!

Todd would be dead. The alliance would be kaput. And every mean Wraith in the galaxy would think that the humans had it in mind to sabotage that Alliance, takeover the Wraiths, and destroy them from the inside.

1) The Todd <3 Lantean Alliance, not that huge.
2) And what the hell would've happened with the original plan?! What did John think would happen? Todd would just waltz into his alliance and ask the others if they wanted the treatment? And they'd all magically agree, no objections? What if that plan had failed? Again, Todd would be killed, the alliance kaput and the Wraiths would yaddi yaddi yadda.

Stop looking at just one aspect of this. There are causes and effects, repercussions that ripple out and effect everything tied to the one single act of Teyla assuming the guise of a Wraith.

I have looked at the ripple effects. You don't seem to have, however.

No seriously. I don't know how many times I can reiterate that it wasn't just about Teyla. That this wasn't the original plan they had worked hard to iron out.

See above.

Cause and effect, lady. Look into it. It's an important concept.

I'm sorry if my gender is confusing to you. I am a man.

He didn't voice them before because then the worst that could happen is the Wraith enslaving people and yes, while that's bad, you have to consider that

1) What's stopping them from doing it now? In fact, we know they already do it for a small portion of their victims.

2) Is getting enslaved worse than getting culled? In my opinion the two are about as bad.

So really, why not try when you're considering that things couldn't really go worse, and possibly better?

Wait... so what is your argument? Aren't you just backing up my point? He only started caring because Teyla's life was now in danger?

And I think PB explained well in her previous post what it would cost them once the plan had changed. And no, it's not just Teyla's life.

See above.

We know the Wraith are fighting each other, and it is said they're now fearful of culling since they don't know who has been infected by the Hoffan drug. I agree everything's not rainbows and butterflies and that people are still dying because of them, but you have to admit they're less powerful than in the first seasons.

So why did they come up with this plan at all? Obviously it was important enough for them to try.

His friends' lives are on the line every time he and his team go on missions with 'only a fraction of the percentage of success as this one', and he usually accepts that. So that kind of negates your point, doesn't it?

Ummm... no? Because that's hypocrisy. It's OK the other times... but not now, magically?

I'd like an example of him sending marines on a mission with a really small chance of success without first considering the ramifications, importance and consequences of it. Please. Cause Sheppard never stroke me as the 'I don't care about sending Red Shirts to death' kind of guy.

"Rising (part 2)" comes to mind. That was literally them going in blind. For a more recent example:
"The Shrine" - Hey, let's risk the lives of the Military, Medical and Science department leaders for a chance to say goodbye on the hope that a smokescreen will shield you from the ship sensors of two hives.

Yes, because he's the chief military officer on Atlantis and it's his call whether a mission is too dangerous or not. Most often than not he decides the possible reward outweighs the danger. Even if it's at the cost of on of his teammates' life.

Here, he seemed all too eager to decline what could save the lives of millions at the risk of one (one additional life to the lives wagered in the original plan).

[Pandora's_Box]

No, you're right. I see it now.

Despite four years of friendship and teamwork side-by-side, moments of true caring, promises to watch out for one another, and deep-seeded genuine goodness on the part of both characters, John should have just played the cold, iron-willed Colonel. Devoid of feeling, prepared to sacrifice anything and anyone to get the job done.

Teyla was collateral damage. Why didn't I see it earlier? It doesn't matter that she's a person with a family and loved ones, she should just go on any potentially fatal mission that gets thrown her way, no questions asked, no consequences considered, and that's final.

What was John doing preparing her for the mission ahead and going over her options and choices? I mean it's not like she's a valuable member of the team with unique gifts that could be helpful in the future. A life is a life is a life.

I'm sure if they needed to, they could replace her with yet another Wraith DNA possessing Athosian woman, trained for combat and in military tactics.

I know. I'm an idiot. What was I thinking? What was he thinking? We're all crazy, guys. Just give it up. Of course John should have let Teyla go in, possibly die, no questions asked. I mean, it's not like her death would mean anything.

[Jack_Bauer]

Hey, who cares about Pegasus if you have to risk the life of someone you know, right? I'm so tired of this "Oh noes! It's a friend! Fight to the death!"-mentality. If it's some unknown person, then it's "Meh. We'll try.". If it's a friend, well, that changes everything.

Isn't he supposed to be a hero. I mean, this is the future of Pegasus we're talking about. And suddenly, because Teyla will be risking her life, John's all "You can't do this!".

What was your opinion on O'neill's similar qualities, in that he would never leave people behind? no matter what...

[Ethell]

Wait... so what is your argument? Aren't you just backing up my point? He only started caring because Teyla's life was now in danger?

If you'd quoted the rest of it, you might see what my point is (I thought I'd been clear...), although I doubt it because no matter how I rephrase it it doesn't seem to come across. Blame it on the fact that I'm non English and I don't express myself correctly, I guess.

Ummm... no? Because that's hypocrisy. It's OK the other times... but not now, magically?

Um yes, I think in Atlantis, missions are considered one by one, and it's decided individually for each if they're worth risking the lives of their people. In most cases, because Sheppard knows there are things more important than their lives, he's willing to take the risk along with his friends and go on missions. In other, separate mission, they analyze the situation and decide it's not. How is that hypocrisy?

"Rising (part 2)" comes to mind. That was literally them going in blind. For a more recent example:
"The Shrine" - Hey, let's risk the lives of the Military, Medical and Science department leaders for a chance to say goodbye on the hope that a smokescreen will shield you from the ship sensors of two hives.

It's been some time since I've watched season 1, so I'll have to go back to it and see what you're talking about. And as for The Shrine, I don't think it has anything to do with what we were talking about, because I was asking you when did he send Red Shirts in dangerous mission without caring about their lives, in response to your post saying he wouldn't care if it wasn't Teyla's life on the line. And the team in The Shrine has no Red Shirts in it.

[jcjoeyfreak]

Wait, wot? This is John Sheppard we're talking about here. He's lost more people he's cared about than I can count. They all died. Dead. Gone forever. At least the ones not named Carson Beckett anyway. And with the onslaught of season four, how else is that poor man going to react to a valued team member/friend wanting to go off on a dangerous mission? Especially with John's mentality of 'I have to do all the crazy dangerous stuff! You stay here and stay safe!'. Honestly, I have no idea how John's not in the loony bin at this point. I'm thinking his little core group of friends is the only thing that keeps his brain functioning these days. So yeah, it's understandable John is reluctant. I think he should be able to express his worries and concerns, especially being the leader and all. Or should he just STFU and let his people do whatever? Hrm. Maybe we should kick him to snap him out of it. Damn hero! Be a hero! What else ya good for?

If I had to choose. The world or my friend... well, I hope I'd be noble enough to choose my friend. It's a personal choice. And in my opinion both choices are okay and valid. Neither is the bad option. How can saving anyone be bad? Either choice, you have live with the consequences. It's up to the person in question which consequence they're willing to live and deal with. And I think we all know what would kill John the most at this point in his life. Sometimes the answers are clear, sometimes they're not. And hey, people change, situations change, it'd be silly to think one answer will be the right answer every time. Come on now.

And um, we're all human here. John Sheppard is human. Plz to be remembering.

This is an interesting topic.