I see John's "Only my friends matter"-mentality is still alive and well...

[Becky S.]

I'm just guessing since we know nothing about John's mother, but my impression was that he didn't want her to risk her life in fear that her son would grow up without his mother. Perhaps that's what happened to John himself and he's afraid of it happening to Torrin. Many men are afraid of turning out like their father and I could easily see John believing he had to help raise Torrin if Teyla died and being afraid of being like his father.

Not that he wouldn't be involved with Torrin of Teyla didn't die, just more involved if she did. Just a thought.

[Pandora's_Box]

It's a sound sentiment in theory; valuing the lives of the many or lives of the few or the one individual. And while we expect it from our heroes, because the very word hero implies something greater than ourselves, someone more noble and courageous and capable of doing things we aren't, I think it's a lot more realistic to see John voicing his concerns about Teyla taking on this mission.

Above all, he is her friend. She is not military, so aside from the fact that she is on his team, she is not there because she was assigned a post, she took that position because from the very first moment they met, she saw something in John that made her trust him and want to help him.

I would expect a decent person (as we've come to see John) would show her the same decency and extend the same courtesies to her.

Teyla is very much a mother hen. She does things for others, often even at her own expense. She needs someone to take a step back and watch her back for a change. John was that person here.

I didn't for a minute think that he would have scraped the mission, but I do think he wanted her to realize the full implications of her decision.

[Lt. Col. Anonymous]

I have to agree with FAII, I understand that it's in John's character, hell it's human nature, but its ridiculous. For all John knew if the mission went successfully millions of lives would have been saved, but because Teyla was going it was suddenly to dangerous. I understand that he was worried but he could have just said he was worried and didn't want her to go, instead of trying to get her to not go.

[AutumnDream]

Hey, who cares about Pegasus if you have to risk the life of someone you know, right? I'm so tired of this "Oh noes! It's a friend! Fight to the death!"-mentality. If it's some unknown person, then it's "Meh. We'll try.". If it's a friend, well, that changes everything.

Isn't he supposed to be a hero. I mean, this is the future of Pegasus we're talking about. And suddenly, because Teyla will be risking her life, John's all "You can't do this!".

That's actually a really great character flaw. Unfortunately the writers don't realize it's a flaw and portray it as a virtue in all cases, never once creating a scenario in which his mentality has dire consequences.

[Pandora's_Box]

Or maybe, he was being responsible and was making sure that she wanted to go through with it. Kind of like a doctor giving the patient all the facts before they make a medical decision so that it can be an informed one.

He doesn't try to talk her out of it. He's trying to make sure she's both committed to the plan and in full awareness of what it implies.

The convo, for your consideration...

SHEPPARD: This is crazy.
TEYLA: Believe me, this is not a decision I am taking lightly.
SHEPPARD: But d'you realise what he's asking you to do?
TEYLA: Doctor Keller assures me that the procedure is completely reversible and will have no lasting ill effects.
SHEPPARD: I'm not talking about the procedure.
TEYLA: I know.
SHEPPARD: Look, even if this works, even if all the Wraith stop feeding, you think they're gonna become nice and friendly overnight?
No. They're gonna have a massive technological advantage.
TEYLA: You're suggesting they will enslave the people of this galaxy rather than feed on them.
SHEPPARD: We've seen the same thing happen in *our* galaxy.
TEYLA: You didn't voice this objection before.
SHEPPARD: Nobody was asking *you* to risk your life.
TEYLA: My Wraith D.N.A. makes me the only possible candidate. Anyone else would be detected by the Queen immediately.
SHEPPARD: Well, that's fine, but-but my question is: why now? The Wraith are busy killing each other – why don't we just sit back and watch?
TEYLA: Eventually one faction will emerge victorious and then everything will go back to the way it was.
SHEPPARD: But maybe not for a while, so we can afford to wait.
TEYLA: And if Todd's alliance is destroyed? We may never have another opportunity like this again. I admit, this may not solve the Wraith problem once and for all, but there are people alive today who will be culled in the coming weeks and months, and if I can save even *some* of them, I have to try – if not for myself, then for my son.

[Ethell]

TEYLA: You're suggesting they will enslave the people of this galaxy rather than feed on them.
SHEPPARD: We've seen the same thing happen in *our* galaxy.
TEYLA: You didn't voice this objection before.
SHEPPARD: Nobody was asking *you* to risk your life.

I think this part is the key point.

John had doubts about this before, he wasn't sure if it would exactly benefit to the people of the Pegasus galaxy, but he thought 'Hey, it can't hurt to try.'

But now that someone of Atlantis has been personally involved in this, and would be at great personal risk (alone in a ship surrounded by Wraith, with only Todd's word that the plan has a chance to work? Yep, great risk), he is obviously voicing these doubts and reconsidering their options: It's possible the plan won't benefit anyone, and that Teyla will be killed in the process.

I think what John's doing is only making her aware that it might not work, and that she doesn't have to do it. He's reminding her of her free will in this matter.

[Mitchell82]

Hey, who cares about Pegasus if you have to risk the life of someone you know, right? I'm so tired of this "Oh noes! It's a friend! Fight to the death!"-mentality. If it's some unknown person, then it's "Meh. We'll try.". If it's a friend, well, that changes everything.

Isn't he supposed to be a hero. I mean, this is the future of Pegasus we're talking about. And suddenly, because Teyla will be risking her life, John's all "You can't do this!".

Gee is there anything you don't **tch and moan about? It's human nature to be more concerned about the life of a friend than someone you don't know. John never once suggested that her life was more important than millions just that she shouldn't be so hasty.

[Jeff O'Connor]

I call to the stand one of General George Hammond's shining moments in the Season Seven SG-1 episode, 'Heroes, Part II.'

HAMMOND: "You try to tell yourself that every man and woman under your command means the same to you. Each has to be equally valuable if you're going to make the kind of decisions that affect their lives the way I have to. But you can't help it. You get closer to some people. You never want to lose anyone."

Now John Sheppard is younger, and despite having done some downright extraordinary things, still the less experienced of two men. His method of conveying such feelings is thus dampened by that youthful and downright Sheppard-esque way of presenting himself; instead of being so deep, he's simplistic in his decree that those closest to him be extra specially careful.

Hammond is older, more sensible -- and beyond all else, a General; his descriptions, viewpoints, are all going to be different and more seasoned. Sheppard isn't there, not to that level, but he's going through the same very human dilemma on a separate scale whenever he says things like he does.

John Sheppard doesn't want to lose anyone, and John Sheppard wouldn't want to throw the galaxy away because of one person's lack of willpower. But I have no doubt that George Hammond would tell Samantha Carter the same thing if such a happening took place during his seven-year run with her under his command -- you're important to me, we're closer than I am with mostly the rest of this base, and I'll be damned if you don't get a vote on this.

To err is human, topic creator. To get closer to someone than someone else is also human and both are relatively unavoidable. Sheppard might not be ideal for all this, and I won't argue that the writers could be going at it somewhat incorrectly and trying to make the audience sit back and say 'wow, he's so thoughtful' from the way we were given the perspective, and we always are. But at the end of the day, I'm sorry, but it's unrealistic to imagine a man like Sheppard or really virtually any other commanding officer we've seen not feel and express themselves the way he did in 'The Queen', because it is a big step to ask someone to do what Teyla Emmagan had to do, regardless of future implications.

In fact, I bet it could have been Soldier #383 and Sheppard would have had that conversation, albeit to a less heated extent. (See the Hammond explanation, of course.) But that's another nutshell -- John is blatantly caring like that. While it can be a fault, it can, too, be a strength. He has that mentality.

[Linzi]

Or maybe, he was being responsible and was making sure that she wanted to go through with it. Kind of like a doctor giving the patient all the facts before they make a medical decision so that it can be an informed one.

He doesn't try to talk her out of it. He's trying to make sure she's both committed to the plan and in full awareness of what it implies.

The convo, for your consideration...

Thank you for posting that part of the transcript. I was going to do it yesterday, but ran out of time.

It's clear from the dialogue, that Sheppard actually isn't trying to persuade Teyla not to go on the mission; he's pointing out to her the possible pitfalls of it, and asking her if she's sure she wants to do it, because he has doubts and concerns for her safety.

Surely ANY good commanding officer, and he's her team leader or manager here, AND good friend would point out the cons of a risky and dangerous mission to a team member and good friend. Sheppard looks out for his team. He'd have said the same to Rodney or Ronon or anyone under his command, I think. And it's quite right he should, I think.

[Karhedron]

I don't really have a problem with Sheppard trying to talk Teyla out of this mission.
What bothers me more about that episode was the bad writing for Teyla to give John his heroic moment.
She couldn't have known he would show up in his Puddlejumper...and if he wouldn't have the hive she was on would have been blown to tiny bits.
Getting even with Todd and killing some Wraiths is one thing.. but what she pulled of there was somewhat stupid.
Of course it helped to give the much needed "Shep-saves-the day"-scenario.

Trying to talk her out of this just showed two things for me :
1.) he cares for his friends and is a rather protective person
2.) he thinks a lot as long as it involves others. He obviously can't trust others to do the right thing and rather wants to do it himself. I have no doubt whatsoever that , if the circumstances would have allowed HIM to infiltrate the hive, he would have been on his way long before any of his friends could have talked to him like that

[flynn19]

Kirk: "Sometimes, the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many".

Choosing a loved one over a stranger is a human trait. Humans are not a particularly benevolent race.

Considering the risks of any situation is wise. But there isn't a decent human being alive who wouldn't rosk everything and everyone to rescue a captured friend or loved one.

Flynn 24

[Laura Dove]

That's actually a really great character flaw. Unfortunately the writers don't realize it's a flaw and portray it as a virtue in all cases, never once creating a scenario in which his mentality has dire consequences.

Very well said. It's a very human flaw, but it's still a flaw.

[FallenAngelII]

Here's another one for you:

Mission goes poorly, Teyla is compromised.

Suddenly Atlantis is in pretty signifigant danger once again from the Wraith. They already made one close pass at Earth last year, they know we're still around...do we really want to incite them further?

How would Atlantis randomly be put at more danger than before? It's not like they'll know Teyla is from Atlantis.

You're risking millions in the Pegasus if Teyla doesn't go, but you are directly risking even more on Earth if she does. I can't imagine how that plan ever got Woolsey's and the IOA's approval. It was basically walking Teyla into a Wraith hive and asking for her to be captured.

With this logic, Atlantis should never go near the Wraith since they'd be risking Earth every single time.

Or maybe, he was being responsible and was making sure that she wanted to go through with it. Kind of like a doctor giving the patient all the facts before they make a medical decision so that it can be an informed one.

Go and re-watch the initial part of the conversation. That was not making sure of it, that was actively trying to talk her out of it.

Stuff.

But that's exactly my point. No objections, at all, 'til Teyla would be put at risk and then it's all "Don't do it! It might not work! Wah wah wah!". Well what if it does work? Millions of lives saved (at least from death).

Gee is there anything you don't **tch and moan about? It's human nature to be more concerned about the life of a friend than someone you don't know. John never once suggested that her life was more important than millions just that she shouldn't be so hasty.

Yes, life would be better if no one ever complained about anything and loved Stargate Atlantis unconditionally. It's human nature to be more concerned and care more about the life if one close to you. It's a great character flaw to be prepared to disregard the lives of millions for the life of one just because they're a friend.

I don't know why so many people are forgetting what was actually said. John didn't just want to inform her or anything, the beginning of the conversation was a blatant attempt to talk her out of it. That or the writers just wrote it badly.

I call to the stand one of General George Hammond's shining moments in the Season Seven SG-1 episode, 'Heroes, Part II.'

Yes, but General Hammond would never endanger the lives of millions or even many for the lives of one or a few, now would he? In fact, I remember him ordering people not to go on rescue missions several times because of this.

Caring about certain people more is OK. It really is, there's nothing wrong with it. I value the lives of my friends over the lives of, say, some random Koreans. But, the lives of millions Koreans vs. my friends'? Heck, my life vs. millions of Koreans? I wouldn't hesitate to save the Koreans.

[Linzi]

Go and re-watch the initial part of the conversation. That was not making sure of it, that was actively trying to talk her out of it.

In YOUR interpretation of the scene, perhaps. But let's look at the actual words said, shall we? And deal with the facts, not opinions of what you think Sheppard was saying.



SHEPPARD: This is crazy.

TEYLA: Believe me, this is not a decision I am taking lightly.

SHEPPARD: But d'you realise what he's asking you to do?

TEYLA: Doctor Keller assures me that the procedure is completely reversible and will have no lasting ill effects.

SHEPPARD: I'm not talking about the procedure.

TEYLA: I know.

SHEPPARD: Look, even if this works, even if all the Wraith stop feeding, you think they're gonna become nice and friendly overnight? No. They're gonna have a massive technological advantage.

TEYLA: You're suggesting they will enslave the people of this galaxy rather than feed on them.

SHEPPARD: We've seen the same thing happen in our galaxy.

TEYLA: You didn't voice this objection before.

SHEPPARD: Nobody was asking you to risk your life.



At no time does Sheppard say Teyla either shouldn't or mustn't participate in the mission , so how is he 'actively' trying to talk her out of the mission? In fact the bolded line above, shows that Sheppard is ensuring Teyla understands what's being asked of her. In other words, he's making sure she knows what the potential risks are.

All the way through he does what any friend would do; he points out it's dangerous, that it might not work, or that the mission could be delayed. Sheppard initially thought the plan was a good idea. But that was when they thought they could persuade Todd to get his wraith to take the gene therapy. No individual would be at risk then. It was potentially a win win situation. Thus nobody would be risking their life.

All of a sudden, the plan has changed, and the new plan as proposed by Todd involved a member of his team risking her life, for a plan which nobody knows for sure will work. Even Keller said she couldn't be sure what the treatment would do, because she needed live specimens to test it on. Of course Sheppard makes sure Teyla knows what she's doing. If he was actively trying to persuade her not to go, he'd have said 'Don't do this Teyla.' Or such like. Surely? Thus if one takes Sheppard's words from the dialogue, which is the factual part of that scene, he doesn't ask or tell her not to go ahead. He's merely asking her if it's a wise thing, if she knows what's being asked of her and if it's really necessary to do it now. Any friend or team leader would do that in that position.

You have no facts for your assertation here; merely your interpretation from what you believe Sheppard was saying. The dialogue quoted here doesn't quite agree with those assertations.

I think it's fair to say, some might think perhaps Sheppard might have hoped Teyla would decide not to do it, but if he was actively trying to persuade her not to go, surely Sheppard would have actually tried to talk her out of going? He doesn't. He points out the dangers of the mission, and asks if it's worth it at this time, yes. But I feel if Sheppard actively hadn't wanted her to go, his words would have been stronger and more blatant. IE, 'Don't go. You can't go. I'm not happy about you going'. He said none of those things and accepted her decision very quickly.

[FallenAngelII]

How about him disregarding Teyla stating that she realizes what she's about to do? How about him bombarding her with "It might not work. You might die. Blah blah blah!", stuff that's all common sense?

How about this part:
SHEPPARD: Look, even if this works, even if all the Wraith stop feeding, you think they're gonna become nice and friendly overnight? No. They're gonna have a massive technological advantage.

Suddenly, this plan isn't good at all. Suddenly, maybe they shouldn't even do it since it might not be a solution at all, it might make things work. Yet John didn't voice any of these objections prior to this (as Teyla noted).

How come? How come there wasn't a problem with the Wraith maybe enslaving people 'til Teyla's life was on the line?

Then there's this:
SHEPPARD: Well, that's fine, but-but my question is: why now? The Wraith are busy killing each other -- why don't we just sit back and watch?

John is blatantly trying to talk Teyla out of it. "Let's sit back and watch. This plan which was viable before isn't viable anymore 'cause you're involved now!".

How about the fact that John had a long conversation where he kept saying "This plan might fail. Let's wait or not do it at all!"?