Carson: From healer, to bringer of death

[prion]

If Carson had done what the wraith wanted, they would kill every single plague survivor, then happily nosh their way through the galaxy without a worry about 'food poisoning.' Carson stated that he wasn't going to be complicit in that kind of action, so instead offered himself up, knowing that he would be poison to the wraith.

the whole episode was rife with morally questionable choices, and our heroes made them, for better or worse.

[Earthgate Ricky]

If Carson had done what the wraith wanted, they would kill every single plague survivor, then happily nosh their way through the galaxy without a worry about 'food poisoning.' Carson stated that he wasn't going to be complicit in that kind of action, so instead offered himself up, knowing that he would be poison to the wraith.

the whole episode was rife with morally questionable choices, and our heroes made them, for better or worse.

Amen!

[Quadhelix]

I'd also like to point out that at no point in the 10,000 years since the Ancients left have the Wraith made any attempt, much less succeeded, to get off sentient feed -- even with pet Wraith Worshippers to chat with and humans smart enough to kill them or blow them up. Todd is the most level-headed Wraith around and even he admitted that getting the general Wraith population to accept non-sentient food would be difficult even with possible starvation on the line.

The Wraith are happy with the status quo, which disolves the "physiology dictates." Their actions are a choice, unfortuneately a choice that makes war inevitable.

It simply might not have occurred to the Wraith that they could adapt themselves to stop feeding on humans.

As such, I am willing to accept the argument that the Wraith have a "biological imperative" (the need to eat) to kill humans, at least for the purpose of food.

However, such a biological imperative on the part of the Wraith implies a biological imperative on the part of the humans to exterminate every last Wraith in existence, from the oldest Queen to the smallest infant. Indeed, many prey animals such as the Rhinoceros, Triceratops, Stegosaurus, Ankylosaurus, and Pachycephalosaurus have had weapons built into their body to turn the fight against their attackers.


The very fact that Carson's "anti-Wraith retrovirus" turned the Wraith into humans instead of killing them showed that the Hippocratic Oath is, indeed, a defining aspect of his character, that he would go so far as to apply it to something that would eat him (in a very sadistic fashion, I might add).

[Todds worshipper]

We can go on and on about this - from the humans kidnapping and poisoning Steve, to murdering Bob in a cell, to holding Todd captive - a Wraith who offered his trust - until he nearly starved to death. The humans have been extremely cold-blooded and heartless to the Wraith, another sentient species, and NOT out of necessity, but because they feel they have the right to judge the inhabitants of a galaxy they have just invaded. They have deceived the Wraith, they have tortured them, they have experimented on them, they have slaughtered them - male, female and child - though unprovoked (The Hive, for instance - a classic case where the humans attacked Wraith without cause, but out of hate and prejudice). Sure, the Wraith feed - and kill - in order to sustain themselves, but the humans, especially the Lanteans, kill just because they have set themselves up as judge, jury and executioner....

....Oh, lemme see. ALL of the humans could have hidden in the caves (seems the Wraith are clueless about caves), while Shep and Co. lured the Wraith away from the gate. Many ways they could have done this...including making it appear that the villagers had travelled to point A...say, by setting up a fake campsite...so that while some went to investigate, the Lanteans could have taken out those at the gate and evacuated the humans. That is just one simple option.

There were options for everyone here, except - maybe - the Wraith...seeing as they still have that pesky need to feed thing going on.


das

I completely agree with das (and not just because of my love for Todd). The Atlantians went from wanting to help the wraith change their ways (which was a promising way to curb their eating habits without exterminating their species) to "oh bugger it, let's slaughter them all" a few days later. In reality, if humans like that were in charge on our planet, the nightly news would be a million times more gruesome than it already is.

[Jackie]

If cows, pigs and chickens suddenly developed to the point where they could talk to us, rationalize that they were going to die to feed us, make weapons and shoot back in effort to save themselves, how would we react?

Would we continue to keep them in pens and butcher them accordingly? Our food service industry would be turned on its head. Not everyone would just gladly become vegetarians--even though we can live without meat.

With our own scientific knowledge, I think we would start creating artificial meat to be honest. While other people would still insist on eating the real deal. We could be in for a civil war if our food supply was disturbed in any way, shape or form.

Of course, if livestock could talk we would have a new meaning to "animal rights."

Humans are hypocrites but at the same time, we are far more adaptive than the wraith. The ability to adapt is key to any species survival. If a species doesn't adapt it will die out! Rule of nature.

If the wraith cannot adapt and find an "alternate food source" now their food source has been cut short they will simply die out.

I always liked how layered the wraith are in character but it always dumbfounded me that they couldn't follow the basic laws of nature...even with spaceships and advanced tech. Their food chain has now changed and they will either die or adapt.

[Pandora's_Box]

It simply might not have occurred to the Wraith that they could adapt themselves to stop feeding on humans.

So for all their tech and scientific advancements, they're either just plain stupid or they're evil enough that they don't care that their food is talking back and asking for mercy.

As such, I am willing to accept the argument that the Wraith have a "biological imperative" (the need to eat) to kill humans, at least for the purpose of food.

However, such a biological imperative on the part of the Wraith implies a biological imperative on the part of the humans to exterminate every last Wraith in existence, from the oldest Queen to the smallest infant. Indeed, many prey animals such as the Rhinoceros, Triceratops, Stegosaurus, Ankylosaurus, and Pachycephalosaurus have had weapons built into their body to turn the fight against their attackers.

And such is the cycle of life and the way of it. So to rail against the humans for fighting for their own survival (and the fact that they're willing to do whatever it takes) is odd to me. Especially when we're talking about biological imperatives and nature.

No prey animal takes its death lying down. The vast majority of them do have defenses and have been known to fight back and take down their predators. Why not humans?

The very fact that Carson's "anti-Wraith retrovirus" turned the Wraith into humans instead of killing them showed that the Hippocratic Oath is, indeed, a defining aspect of his character, that he would go so far as to apply it to something that would eat him (in a very sadistic fashion, I might add).

Some would argue that to be the same thing. That turning then into humans did, effectively, kill them.

I completely agree with das (and not just because of my love for Todd). The Atlantians went from wanting to help the wraith change their ways (which was a promising way to curb their eating habits without exterminating their species) to "oh bugger it, let's slaughter them all" a few days later. In reality, if humans like that were in charge on our planet, the nightly news would be a million times more gruesome than it already is.

So if a particular species had been killing your people for about 10 000 years, you'd be able to let go of all suspicions against them? All belief that this may all be a plot to divert your efforts and energies away from the war so they may take you by surprise?

Point me in the direction of whatever galaxy you're from because it sounds like it's populated by saints.

Would we continue to keep them in pens and butcher them accordingly? Our food service industry would be turned on its head. Not everyone would just gladly become vegetarians--even though we can live without meat.

That's the funny thing. We actually can't.

There are fats and proteins etc... only available through the meat that our bodies need in order to function properly. There are countless studies pointing out the dangers to the human body of starving it of these nutrients. And to an extent, we've overcome that obstacle with supplements and modified foods.

So if we can do that, and our food doesn't talk, then what was stopping the Wraith?

I always liked how layered the wraith are in character but it always dumbfounded me that they couldn't follow the basic laws of nature...even with spaceships and advanced tech. Their food chain has now changed and they will either die or adapt.

Well said!

[Thunderbird 2]

I am beyond the point of debating the actions of either Dr Beckett, or Clone Carson. Although the fact thety are two different people makes a difference. For the record, - its my opinion that both versions of the character have broken the oath! Dr Beckett by intention. (The retrovirus) Clone Carson (from what I have read) through coertionan, programming by Michael, and circumstance.


However for those interested, here is a link to Wiki's entry on the Hypocratic Oath.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocratic_oath

[Celesto]

for me it s totally understanding. Carson was catched by Michael quiet a long time. Who knows what he did to Carson (the the Clone ). I would be kind of nerved of a Wraith. But maybe they bring light in the dark, why he himself gave the virus. I mean, there s still no solution for keeping Carson as Clone alive anyway. I hope they solve the problem before the Season 5 Finale.

[garhkal]

What got me, was he had no issues making the retrovirus, no issues working on michael, and no issues working on the hoffan drug knowing what it was able to do, but he has issues now... seems strange.

[Ouroboros]

I am beyond the point of debating the actions of either Dr Beckett, or Clone Carson. Although the fact thety are two different people makes a difference. For the record, - its my opinion that both versions of the character have broken the oath! Dr Beckett by intention. (The retrovirus) Clone Carson (from what I have read) through coertionan, programming by Michael, and circumstance.


However for those interested, here is a link to Wiki's entry on the Hypocratic Oath.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocratic_oath

I swear by Apollo, Asclepius, Hygieia, and Panacea, and I take to witness all the gods, all the goddesses, to keep according to my ability and my judgment, the following Oath.[/quote]

To consider dear to me, as my parents, him who taught me this art; to live in common with him and, if necessary, to share my goods with him; To look upon his children as my own brothers, to teach them this art.

I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone.

I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion.

But I will preserve the purity of my life and my arts.

I will not cut for stone, even for patients in whom the disease is manifest; I will leave this operation to be performed by practitioners, specialists in this art.

In every house where I come I will enter only for the good of my patients, keeping myself far from all intentional ill-doing and all seduction and especially from the pleasures of love with women or with men, be they free or slaves.

All that may come to my knowledge in the exercise of my profession or in daily commerce with men, which ought not to be spread abroad, I will keep secret and will never reveal.

If I keep this oath faithfully, may I enjoy my life and practice my art, respected by all men and in all times; but if I swerve from it or violate it, may the reverse be my lot.

Maybe he thought they said hypocritic oath?

[dasNdanger]

I am beyond the point of debating the actions of either Dr Beckett, or Clone Carson. Although the fact thety are two different people makes a difference. For the record, - its my opinion that both versions of the character have broken the oath! Dr Beckett by intention. (The retrovirus) Clone Carson (from what I have read) through coertionan, programming by Michael, and circumstance.


However for those interested, here is a link to Wiki's entry on the Hypocratic Oath.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocratic_oath

Thank you for posting that.

What got me, was he had no issues making the retrovirus, no issues working on michael, and no issues working on the hoffan drug knowing what it was able to do, but he has issues now... seems strange.

Exactly.

Maybe he thought they said hypocritic oath?

LOL! Too true, too true!

das

[JadedWraith]

yes provided they can pay for treatment or make a contribution to society.

good is subjective.
by helping those people you may save lives - a "good" thing, but you also fail to eliminate the weak genes that caused the weakness in the first place and ultimately continue this cycle of pain and misery - bad.
virtually all "good" things are tied with "bad" consequences in some form.

doing the most "good" won't always lead to the best outcome. you have to aim for balance. this is what nature is all about.

Any bad gene can turn into a good gene if environmental conditions change. That’s the main error of eugenics. One weakness may be your strong point in different circumstances. If you take variety out of the gene pool, the species won't survive. And nature finds its way to balance with many ripples.

As for Carson’s actions, well, although I call Atlantis the land of the ethically challenged (e.g Misbegotten), this time I don't have much of a problem with them. It was reasonable to try to preserve the legacy of the Hoffan drug to the humans, as it was justified for the wraith to try to counter act it. Survival vs survival. No one was innocent and no one was a true villain.

[FallenAngelII]

das, I think you're just too biased of a Wraith-lover. They are at war, the Wraith are their enemy. The medical data was not going to be used for anything other than to hunt down every living survivor of "the Plague" and then kill them.

What possible use could that research have had? All it did was allow you to detect whether or not they had been subjected to the "plague".

There have been plenty of healers throughout the ages who at the same time have been warriors. Also, I do not think this is the first time Carson has fired a gun (I could be wrong).

They are at war and this was a combat situation. This Hive was clearly hostile and out to kill innocent people. They probably already had (the Belarans they captured). What Carson did was not optimal, but it was not wrong, either.

Contrary to popular belief, the Hippocratic Oath also does not state that doctors cannot do any harm whatsoever, just that they can't using their medical knowledge.

[Silverwings]

Interesting. I never noticed the abortion bit before.

Also, when one's life (or say, thousands of others) are on the line, who exactly does "do no harm" apply to? Is it a numbers game?

Edit: This is interesting:

Contrary to popular belief, the Hippocratic Oath also does not state that doctors cannot do any harm whatsoever, just that they can't using their medical knowledge.

So Keller shooting the Genii punk in Missing was OK, since she doesn't use guns for surgery? That seems a bit... semantic to me, but sure, I'll roll with it. Self-defense or standing in the defense of others would seem to me to be a higher moral obligation than the H. oath.

[Jill_Ion]

While we're talking about Hippocratic Oaths, let's remember that the Commander was trying to force Carson to harm his own patients by working on a way to overcome the Hoffan drug.

If Carson had completed the work and turned it over to the Commander, Carson's patients would've been killed. Carson and Rodney would've been killed. Based upon past actions by other Wraith, the entire village would've been wiped out, thereby also taking out the Team. Then, the Commander would've taken the research and killed anyone who had survived the Hoffan Plague.

Then, the Commander and his Hive would've continued their traditional feeding process on humans.

I also want to point out that Daniel and Rodney had no choice about activating the Attero device. They were forced to do it. They asked for more time to figure out the negative side effects of the Attero device, but were not allowed by the Badsgard.

Finally, Carson and Rodney were stunned, kidnapped, and forced to work on the research against their will. Not only their lives were threatened - the lives of 700+ people on the planet were threatened unless they cooperated. The Commander was the enemy. Carson and Rodney were under no obligation to cooperate with him.

The Commander would not have let them go upon completing the research. No help from Atlantis or the planet was coming. Rodney and Carson had to save their own lives. To save their lives, Carson and Rodney needed weapons and to take out the Commander, so the Hive would be without a leader and possibly hesitate in their attack on the planet. Also, they needed to kill the Commander as he was driving the research (y'know, the research that would cost the lives of thousands?). The Commander would not stop even if they asked nicely.

Like the Wraith. Love the Wraith. Sympathize with the Wraith. Bake them baby cakes. That's all cool.

But this Wraith - the Commander - was the enemy. Carson used the best weapon he had to defend himself, Rodney, the Team, 700+ villagers, his patients, and thousands of lives on other planets.