Judge Shepard hands down his ruling: Guilty, Death by Execution

[Pandora's_Box]

What is starting to really disturb me is how many people think it was cool how Sheppard murdered those villagers in the explosion - villagers who were only doing what they thought was right to protect their families. I am really disturbed by this. We're those rogue villagers right? I cannot say - I believe they acted out of fear, not out of hatred. I just cannot believe that Sheppard just murdered them....

Cool? Who has said it was cool?

Sheppard made a call to save the villagers. Was he supposed to let everyone die?

[The6thRace]

It's definitely a new direction for the character, I'll grant you that. I don't think they'll just blow this off by never mentioning it again - if they do the writers will have either made a huge mistake (by not realizing what they just made Sheppard do), or missed an opportunity to take the character in a new direction. Either way though, can't look at Sheppard the same way after this episode any more.

[The6thRace]

It may very well be that Sheppard has choosen the lesser of two evils. But do the ends justify the means? After all the past experiences, I'm especially reminded of that episode where Sheppard helped to free a bunch of criminals condemned to the island as 'wraith food'. Although many weren't criminals, Sheppard made a choice that ultimately resulted in some people getting saved, and some people dying. Same scenario here, just the lesser of two evils once again. Its just that this time, Sheppard himself 'pulled the trigger', not the wraith.

[Pandora's_Box]

It's definitely a new direction for the character, I'll grant you that. I don't think they'll just blow this off by never mentioning it again - if they do the writers will have either made a huge mistake (by not realizing what they just made Sheppard do), or missed an opportunity to take the character in a new direction. Either way though, can't look at Sheppard the same way after this episode any more.

Not really so new.

In Miller's Crossing, Sheppard talks Wallace into sacrificing himself to Todd so that Todd could feed and have the energy to save Jeannie.

[The6thRace]

Guess I never really considered that till now. Sheppard is becoming a real threat.

[Pandora's_Box]

Guess I never really considered that till now. Sheppard is becoming a real threat.

Sheppard is a military man entrenched in a war. I may not agree with some of the actions taken by the Atlanteans, but wartime is hardly the time and place to hold super fast to a strictly black and white moral code.

And I don't say this to suggest that war makes everyone immoral, but I do mean to say that it becomes a lot harder to decided whom to save and when to save them when you're faced with hundreds of lives begging for safety from every direction.

Easy, it is not.

[dasNdanger]

Not really so new.

In Miller's Crossing, Sheppard talks Wallace into sacrificing himself to Todd so that Todd could feed and have the energy to save Jeannie.

That was much different - he explained the situation to Wallace, and Wallace decided for himself to sacrifice his life for the greater good. Sure, Sheppard laid the guilt treatment on him, but in the end, it WAS Wallace's decision.

In this episode, Sheppard lured them into a trap, and blew them up. Blew up men who thought they were doing the right thing to save their families. I call that a terrorist.

das

[The6thRace]

Looking at his actions from afar, I guess I may seem like a 'Mister Woolsey', judging the original SG-1 team of their actions without having actually experienced anything for myself. I'm sure I'd react much worse in that kind of situation simply out of fear or necessity to survive. Things can't always go smoothly. But the fact remains, Sheppards actions are well past anything the original SG-1 team did (they simply defied orders or copped an attitude at times).

It still doesn't change the fact though that his actions are morally wrong, despite whatever justification. And we're not talking about some obscure moral issue here, he has permanently ended the lives of several people purposely. People who while, some may say they deserved, and may be out of necessity, still had the right to live just like any others. They needed to pay for their crimes, but not like that.

[TragicComedy]

I'm not disagreeing with what anyone else has written here. Just bringing out a point no one else has mentioned.

Teyla and Ronon both went along with this plan without raising a single objection that I recall. So Sheppard came up with the idea and he pulled the trigger, but Teyla and Ronon have to live with that on their conscience just as much as he does.

[DragonLadyK]

As I've said MANY times before, the humans are no better than Wraith - only, Wraith must 'feed in order to live'. Big difference between killing someone because you can, and killing because you have to.

Sheppard is also responsible for the blood on the hands of the village's leader, poor guy...you could see it in his eyes...his guilt will get the better of him.

I found this to be a very morally questionable episode, on many levels.

I know enough Vets to know that that will haunt Sheppard forever, even if he'd rather die than show it perhaps. Furthermore, I know enough Vets to know that for Sheppard, after having been in a constant war-zone for five years, not to have put the needs of the many above the needs of the few and accepted the collateral damage would have been a laughable fantasy.

War isn't fair, it isn't pretty, people die even though they never asked for it -- that's why Sheridan said that war "is all Hell." It's inherently morally questionable -- that's why it should be avoided.

And before you put the Wraith on a pedestal, remember that not once in the 10,000 years since the end of the war have we seen the Wraith make any attempt to get off sentient food, much less succeed. Even Todd admits that after the Lanteans came up with a peaceful resolution to the war -- making it so Wraith no longer have to "kill to live" -- the general Wraith population possibly won't accept it.

The Wraith are happy to eat off humans, perfectly content to feed off food that can talk back -- indeed, it is a key portion of their identity. There are no vegitarian Wraith, no PETH.

That makes them worse than the Lanteans, because the Lanteans would be fine with peace if the Wraith would back off (and that includes not switching up feeding for slavery).

Dragonlady

[TragicComedy]

And another thing - you become a judge anytime you take a life. Wraith, human, Jaffa, whatever. In any war, you choose a side and you fight against those who oppose you. You may not know them from Adam but they are your enemy for whatever reason.

In SG-1's case, how many Jaffa did they kill that might have been reasoned with and might have become part of the Free Jaffa Nation?

Wraith feed to live. It's a necessity. Yet they are killed for being who they are.

Sheppard had chosen a side. To protect those people at all costs. Jarvis/Jervis whatever went against that plan. Did he deserve a trial? Yes. Did he willingly lead the Wraith to kill innocent people? Yes. You may look at Jervis' death as innocent because he wasn't aware what he was walking into, but neither would the people have been had they been in the cave like Jervis thought.

Still not saying that what Sheppard did was morally correct, but really, when it comes down to it - not a lot of it ever is.

[dasNdanger]

I know enough Vets to know that that will haunt Sheppard forever, even if he'd rather die than show it perhaps. Furthermore, I know enough Vets to know that for Sheppard, after having been in a constant war-zone for five years, not to have put the needs of the many above the needs of the few and accepted the collateral damage would have been a laughable fantasy.

War isn't fair, it isn't pretty, people die even though they never asked for it -- that's why Sheridan said that war "is all Hell." It's inherently morally questionable -- that's why it should be avoided.

And before you put the Wraith on a pedestal, remember that not once in the 10,000 years since the end of the war have we seen the Wraith make any attempt to get off sentient food, much less succeed. Even Todd admits that after the Lanteans came up with a peaceful resolution to the war -- making it so Wraith no longer have to "kill to live" -- the general Wraith population possibly won't accept it.

The Wraith are happy to eat off humans, perfectly content to feed off food that can talk back -- indeed, it is a key portion of their identity. There are no vegitarian Wraith, no PETH.

That makes them worse than the Lanteans, because the Lanteans would be fine with peace if the Wraith would back off (and that includes not switching up feeding for slavery).

Dragonlady

Have you ever known starvation? It's very hard to say how you would feel when you REALLY need to eat in order to live. We know of humans resorting to cannibalism - even to eating their own CHILDREN - in order to survive.

So, no - what the Wraith do is not worse than the Lanteans. They are like tigers or sharks - a predatory species that must prey on another to survive. The Lanteans, on the other hand, have a choice - like, for one, they can go back home to earth and let the Wraith live, and feed, in peace.

@ TragicComedy - that's because Teyla and Ronon hate the Wraith. They kill Wraith out of hate and prejudice. Nice qualities, eh? Even Queen Teyla took advantage of her position to kill Wraith out of hatred right before Todd's eyes, knowing he could do nothing to stop her. The humans are driven by hate - the Wraith by a need to feed.

Perhaps this is why the Wraith often come across as innocent to me (innocent, as in naive...not as in without guilt). They are just doing what nature dictates, they are feeding to survive. On the other hand, humans - out of sheer hatred for the species - are constantly looking for ways to kill them.

Maybe this is what disturbs me the most - Wraith killing for food is 'unjustified' according to this show, while humans killing out of hate and prejudice is justified, because they're the heroes.

das

[TragicComedy]

Okay. Woah, das. I wasn't actually talking about the Wraith with Teyla and Ronon. I was talking about the humans they killed. But okay.

I can understand the whole maybe the Wraith aren't wholly evil thing and the whole identity crisis if they were to go along with Keller's gene therapy but I think that's a discussion for another board.

[Pandora's_Box]

Have you ever known starvation? It's very hard to say how you would feel when you REALLY need to eat in order to live. We know of humans resorting to cannibalism - even to eating their own CHILDREN - in order to survive.

That? Was a pleasant image. Thank you for that.

So, no - what the Wraith do is not worse than the Lanteans. They are like tigers or sharks - a predatory species that must prey on another to survive. The Lanteans, on the other hand, have a choice - like, for one, they can go back home to earth and let the Wraith live, and feed, in peace.

And cull and kill and feed; terrorize countless generations of humans into living in fear. Forced to live (for the most part) as nomadic tribes teaching their children how to protect themselves at all hours of the day, to always be on guard and on the lookout for Wrath darts.

Taking Runners, forcing these people to run for their lives; hunted for sport and never able to rejoin humanity for fear of bringing certain death upon them.

Destroying most civilizations before they have the chance to develop technologies that could help prolong life, eliminate diseases similar to those we've all but wiped out on Earth because we've had the chance to.

Sounds like brilliant fun! I want to live there.

@ TragicComedy - that's because Teyla and Ronon hate the Wraith. They kill Wraith out of hate and prejudice. Nice qualities, eh? Even Queen Teyla took advantage of her position to kill Wraith out of hatred right before Todd's eyes, knowing he could do nothing to stop her. The humans are driven by hate - the Wraith by a need to feed.

And you know what both species are ultimately driven by? The need for survival.

Teyla and Ronon hate the Wraith, not because they're people consumed by evil and malicious thoughts, but because of everything they have suffered at the hands of the Wraith.

Does no one think it's sad that growing to die of old age is such a rare occurrence that the Athosians have a special ceremony to commemorate it?

Ronon's entire civilization (or near enough) was wiped out because they dared to fight for their right to live free of the Wraith? Free from a life lived in fear?

Perhaps this is why the Wraith often come across as innocent to me (innocent, as in naive...not as in without guilt). They are just doing what nature dictates, they are feeding to survive. On the other hand, humans - out of sheer hatred for the species - are constantly looking for ways to kill them.

Over 10 000 years they had to find a solution and nada. Zip. Zilch.

The only other instance of someone attempting to find an alternate food source (and he did this not out of hate and prejudice, but out of love) was also a human.

The Wraith have done nothing to attempt to discover a universally acceptable solution to this problem. And they have to know it is a problem because the humans from Earth are not the first humans to fight them over this.

The Wraith simply refused to change. And killed everyone that stood in their way.

Maybe this is what disturbs me the most - Wraith killing for food is 'unjustified' according to this show, while humans killing out of hate and prejudice is justified, because they're the heroes.

We humans were created, have evolved, what ever manner of creation you subscribe to, with the physiology determining that we eat meat.

Our body acquires certain minerals, vitamins, proteins, from this meat that it can get from nowhere else. And yet, there are some of us that have forgone eating meat for whatever reason. Some claim they just don't like it. Others refuse because of the horrible conditions of some animals farms.

The point is, if we had the decency to defeat our physiology, why not the Wraith?

[Ruffles]

The main thing that irks me is that the village leader specifically told them to bring the wraith to the cave. In other words, they are now following the orders of their village leader. And while the leader played a part in this, it was without a doubt Sheppard who planned it out. They were deliberately misled and USED and were murdered by John Sheppard. They were criminals who never had a trial. Criminals who surrendered without resistance. And Sheppard murdered them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not getting worked up over this or anything, its just a television show. I just hope people see the moral implications of this. I wonder how many people will try to justify Sheppards criminal actions.

Sheppard used their nature against them. These men had decided to hand over innocents to the aggressors to protect themselves. Where have I seen that before? Oh, yeah. Nazi Germany.

The Wraith were going to kill/experiment on the Balarians. Jervis and his men were going to not just turn their backs and let it happen but were going to hand them over willingly.

Sheppard laid out his plan, and the village leader agreed. He DID NOT force those men to do anything. The leader left the keys and walked away. Jervis could have easily taken his family to the mines or hidden in the woods or done any number of things including telling the Wraith where the mines were and not gone in.

Did Sheppard knowingly kill those men? Yes. Was there another choice? I don't know. But don't make them out to be innocent victims in this. They were collaborating with Wraith.

That was much different - he explained the situation to Wallace, and Wallace decided for himself to sacrifice his life for the greater good. Sure, Sheppard laid the guilt treatment on him, but in the end, it WAS Wallace's decision.

In this episode, Sheppard lured them into a trap, and blew them up. Blew up men who thought they were doing the right thing to save their families. I call that a terrorist.

das

Lured? I didn't see Sheppard "luring" anyone. He bet on their cowardice and fear, and he was right. Trying to save their families? Saving their families would have consisted of protecting them by hiding from the Wraith, escaping somehow, not handing over people to be executed.