"Guilty or Innocent?"

[Pitry]

I think the expedition is not guilty, but Sheppard is most definitely guilty of all charges and deserves to be severely and horribly punished

...And get thoroughly whumped in the process?

[jelgate]

^You have discovered Linzi's plan.

[StarOcean]

You're trying to treat them like people that just happen to be programmed. They're not. They are their programming, everything they are and do is because of their programming, you can't separate the two.

I think it doesn't really matter what the Asurans are.

Atlantis is responsible for the Asurans's actions and for the deaths of all those people by them.

If they are a program, Atlantis essentially let loose a highly advanced weapon capable of advance decision making on par with sentient beings.

If they are a sentient race of beings, Atlantis essentially brainwashed beings into being weapons against a specific target. And sentient beings, people, can make strategic decisions.

In both these cases, Atlantis was criminal, incompetent, and irresponsible because they basically unleashed a living weapon that they had no control over. They forced entities capable of advance thinking into an existence that revolves around destroying Wraith. And if that's the Asuran's function, why wouldn't they destroy the Wraith food supply? The Wraith's destruction is the driving command that their decision making has to be based on. It's their primary objective, everything else is unimportant. It would be the same if it was a biological pathogen that Atlantis released, which then mutated into affecting humans.

[MIZA]

i believe in a way they are guilty because they really did wake the wraith and what Teyla said is right it did make a difference them coming here , but it also gave them a chance to fight


if they never came the wraith would have been doing this to them over , over forever they children and generations ahead of them would have been threatened everyday of the wraith waking and culling them , so in a way it is also a blessing they are making it so that the wraith and other never have to experience this or them ever again

[ciannwn]

Uh, loads of animals are sentient, any biologist will tell you that.

So how does a non-human animal think subjectively? Is a dolphin's thought processes identical to a human's?

As far as Buddhists telling people that all animals are sentient, that isn't a difference in definition, it's just ignorance.

A definition of sentient.

http://medical.merriam-webster.com/medical/sentiently

responsive to or conscious of sense impressions

Definitions of sentience.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sentience

1. The quality or state of being sentient; consciousness.
2. Feeling as distinguished from perception or thought.

Further down this page.

3. sentience - the readiness to perceive sensations; elementary or undifferentiated consciousness; "gave sentience to slugs and newts"- Richard Eberhart

Any creature which can respond to sense impressions is sentient according to one meaning of the word. A concept of self and an ability to think either objectively or subjectively isn't required from this point of view.

Buddhists defined sentience in the Buddhist way long before Western philosophers and scientists came up with their own definitions. The Buddhist concept is correct in relation to Buddhism but a Buddhist biologist would use the scientific definition while at work because the word has a different meaning in the biological sciences.

Sentient is a word with a clear definition, aliens would either consider us sentient, or the concept of sentience isn't the one they are using at all.

Sentient is a human word which humans gave a meaning to. It is based on the question of what is awareness and it's defined according to the human concept of awareness. An alien species would have it's own concept of awareness and might even have a word which is their equivalent of sentient but there's no guarantee that we would qualify as aware according to their concept of it. Taking a sci-fi flight of fancy here, what if an alien species was telepathic and included telepathy in their definition of sentience/awareness? Humans wouldn't fit their concept because we aren't telepaths.

The Asurans are A.I.'s which brings us to a popular theme of science fiction and real world philosophical issues because there's research going on now to create intelligent machines. This website has an interesting opening line -

http://library.thinkquest.org/2705/

Artificial Intelligence (AI) is the area of computer science focusing on creating machines that can engage on behaviors that humans consider intelligent.

Humans are the ones who are defining what qualifies as intelligent in a machine and we base these qualifications on us because we've decided that we're intelligent. In the Stargate universe the Nox pointed out that the human way of being isn't the only one and that could apply to intelligence/sentience as well.

[StarOcean]

i believe in a way they are guilty because they really did wake the wraith and what Teyla said is right it did make a difference them coming here , but it also gave them a chance to fight

I don't think they should be blamed for waking the Wraith. It was self-defense and there was really no way they could have come to the possible reasoning that killing the Caretaker would waken every Wraith. I don't believe any Pegasus humans knew that killing a particular Wraith would have woken them early. That accusation was unreasonable and all it did was make the Coalition look stupid.

Teyla did have a good point in that they did give hope. But that's not the issue. The issue is that they've also caused a lot of deaths which they haven't made reparations for beyond trying to stop the problems they caused. And Teyla appears to avoid exploring an issue that would cause conflict between her team, trying side-stepped the issue, thus not encouraging the Tau'ri to confront their shortcomings and to change.

It also worth noting that Atlantis have not admitted to the Pegasus natives that they're the cause of all these deaths until this farce of a trial. It's a cover-up, and Teyla and Ronon must feel bad about being part of it.

Also, the issue that Teyla, Ronon, SGC, or anyone, should have also brought up is that they have continued to make the same mistakes. The activation of the Attero device being the latest one. I'm actually still hoping that Woolsey will finally call them on it, since Teyla isn't given much to do.

if they never came the wraith would have been doing this to them over , over forever they children and generations ahead of them would have been threatened everyday of the wraith waking and culling them , so in a way it is also a blessing they are making it so that the wraith and other never have to experience this or them ever again

I don't think it would have been forever. There's the Traverlers and the Genii. Both who are still technologically evolving. And the Travellers do have tech that lets them use Ancient devices.

It's a mixed blessing. But sometimes I wonder if there will be anyone left to save. It would be ironic if all that's left of the Pegasus natives are the Wraith.

[NoobTau'ri]

We don't know if they're sentient or not, though I think you misunderstand what it is anyway. It's got nothing to do with intelligence, it's about being able to think subjectively, and it's impossible to know whether they do or not. McKay doesn't think so...

McKAY: “Death.” It can’t die – it’s not alive! It’s a programme! I mean, its consciousness is just a bunch of ones and zeroes. I mean, you can call it “she” all you want but it’s still just a thing. It’s a prop – it’s a really advanced radio-controlled weapon. I mean, you don’t feel sorry for your bullets, do you, your bombs?

McKay shows his doubts about his own reasoning when he asks Fran if "she" is really ok with being annihilated to fullfil their plan of destroying the Asurans. This means that sentience is partly subjective and hard to define.

The brilliant mathematician, Allan Turing, deviced a test to determine whether a machine has achieved sentience called the "Turing Test". This involves the machine trying to convince a Human that it is a Human Being without the person actualy knowing that (s)he is talking to a machine. If the machine passes the test, then it is sentient because the ultimate definition of sentience is the capacity to empathize, and only a machine that has achieved a very high level of this quality could fool a Human Being into believing that it is Human.

The Asurans passed the Turing test because the Atlantis Expedition thought they were Humans until the Asurans started to put their fingers inside their brains. If the Asurans had failed the test, the Atlantis expedition wouldn't have required the Asurans to do something that is impossible for Human Beings - stuicking fingers inside brains - to find out that they were machines and not Humans.

[Lythisrose]

I think the expedition is not guilty, but Sheppard is most definitely guilty of all charges and deserves to be severely and horribly punished

Never hire a whumper as your defense attorney

[akren]

Yes, they are. However, I think a more suitable reference would be the scientists who first split the atom. No, they cannot be held responsible for the actions of those whose work lead to death and destruction.

The opinions here calling negligence are off base.

The expedition was attacked by the Wraith. Soldiers were captured and tortured. The military had every right to engage the Wraith to rescue their comrades. The awakening was coincidental. They are innocent.

The Asurans were created with a code instructing them to attack the Wraith. It's been stated that they were cast aside because they turned on the Ancients, not because they were attacking the Wraith by killing humans. All McKay did was activate the code. He had no way of knowing the particulars of the code and how the replicators would evolve to manipulate that code. Again, the expedition is innocent.

Michael is a sentient being. While the expedition violated his "human rights" by experimenting on him, he made the decision to cause mayhem throughout the galaxy. Nothing the expedition did to him made him do anything outside of his will once he escaped. The expedition cannot be held responsible for his actions.

It was brought up that the expedition acted unilaterally in affairs that affected the whole galaxy. There really isn't a defense for this. It's simple arrogance.

McKay should have been personally brought up on charges for destroying a solar system.

I would guitly on some charges (unilaterial decisions effecting the Pegasus Galaxy as a whole, geno/xenocide), but not on others (waking the Wraith was something they couldn't forseen or didn't know would happen); overall I agree with the above thou.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Guilty but they did everything they did with the best intentions and saved countless lives in the process.

[Finger13]

But here's the thing, sweet cheeks. I agree with you that the Asurans going to war with us was their fault. An unprovoked act of war.

However, if it weren't for McKay tampering with their base code and activating the dormant command to attack the Wraith, the Asuran's war would be against the Atlantis expedition only. It was McKay with the approval of Weir and Sheppard who reactivated the code, which made the Asurans attack and destroy Human populations as a tactic to defeat the Wraith. So the Atlantis expedition is guilty by proxy of annihilating countless Human worlds.

Why is the destruction of Asuras such a controversial topic?

It's absolutely no different than saying that we were wrong in using the Dakara weapon to destroy the replicators in SG-1, which we weren't. There is no difference between the Pegasus Replicators and the Ida/MW Replicators, except for the fact that the Ida/MW Replicators were far more machine-like in their appearances. So just because they looked human, flew in Ancient ships and built cities means that they were more justified in living than the other Replicators? I hardly think so.

Just because it was a more violent solution than simply unleashing a wave through every stargate, it was still actually far less destructive than the demise of the MW Replicators. So...

[StarOcean]

The Asurans were created with a code instructing them to attack the Wraith. It's been stated that they were cast aside because they turned on the Ancients, not because they were attacking the Wraith by killing humans.

I'm remembering this differently... The Asurans wanted the code that made them attack the Wraith turned off. And the Ancients didn't like that the Asurans weren't performing as they wanted, so they decided to destroy the Asurans. Which caused the Asurans to turn on *them.* And that's when it became a battle between Ancients and Asurans.

Michael is a sentient being. While the expedition violated his "human rights" by experimenting on him, he made the decision to cause mayhem throughout the galaxy. Nothing the expedition did to him made him do anything outside of his will once he escaped. The expedition cannot be held responsible for his actions.

Didn't Michael become crazy because of what the Lanteans did to him? The "lost sight of reason and torn to pieces by inner pain" type of insane. Though it seems like the show isn't supporting this character development anymore so that the Lanteans can wash their hands of him.

This episode really felt like keeping the Lantean's hands clean and to pay lip service to fans who are pointing out that the cast aren't behaving heroically.

[Linzi]

...And get thoroughly whumped in the process?

Well, it's all about character development, and Sheppard NEVER gets enough of that, and I do like to see justice being served, and come on, Shep's asking for it, really...

You have discovered Linzi's plan.

Well, I thought it was quite a good plan really. Ok, so a bit obvious, but that's me ...

Never hire a whumper as your defense attorney

Absolutely. Unless you want to find yourself whumped after being proven guilty - but only if your name happens to be John Sheppard.

On a serious note, I actually felt the expedition was both guilty and innocent of the charges. Yes, they have inadvertently made some things worse with their interference, BUT, they're also actively fighting the wraith, trying to lessen their grip on the galaxy, and have helped many of the indigenous Pegasus Galaxy's population. I just wish this episode had been more gritty. It all seemed a little superficial to me.

[StarOcean]

On a serious note, I actually felt the expedition was both guilty and innocent of the charges. Yes, they have inadvertently made some things worse with their interference, BUT, they're also actively fighting the wraith, trying to lessen their grip on the galaxy, and have helped many of the indigenous Pegasus Galaxy's population. I just wish this episode had been more gritty. It all seemed a little superficial to me.

Wait. Have the expedition been actively fighting the Wraith beyond researching and using Easy Kill All Switch? Easy Kill All Switch being things such as the Hoff drug, retrovirus, Replicators, and the Attero device.

It feels like every time the expedition kill Wraiths, it was due to an unanticipated encounter. Like they would be searching for Ancient tech and they accidentally meet Wraiths. So to survive, they had to kill them. They aren't actually going out fighting. Off the top of my head, the only time I can remember them taking the battle to the Wraith was when Ford forced Sheppard to help him destroy a hive.

[aretood2]

I think that there was enough for a trial. I also think that they are not guilty of most charges.

The real crime is their stupidity. How can they think that they could control replicators when the Ancients and Asgard and the SGC couldn't? That has to be criminal. It is like flipping the switch to a bomb with a sign saying
"Warning flipping this switch can cause the death off many, but has a very very very very very low chance of giving you a reward."

About the Asurans being sentient...I don't think that they were. I believe don't believe that seeming sentient is just enough. If you rely on Alien programing then you aren't sentient. The Asurans rely on alien programing.