Todd - He did wrong, but so did we

[naamiaiset]

He didn't care that some Wraith could be saved, at all. He just killed them all off because he didn't feel like he could be arsed.

They only got loose after John decreed they all had to die.

John made the decision to off them all and not even attempt to help anyone (besides Todd, because they needed him) before that happened.

In this respect, Todd isn't completely free of blame either. He could have taken it upon himself to release his crew, instead of seeking/waiting for Sheppard's approval. Although, if he had, who knows how Sheppard would have reacted. Provided Todd's crew followed his orders though (aka, not to harm the team), there really wouldn't have been much Sheppard could have protested to. If it was Sheppard's own team trapped, he wouldn't have hesitated doing anything to help them. It kind of surprised me a little that Todd didn't do the same actually.

[randomguy]

the problem with most of your arguments is that you are making it simply a numbers game, you are asking would you kill 12 to save 1000 or would you be willing to sacrifice the 12. Let me ask you this, how many people would you be willing to kill to protect your own family? While the people on the hive werent sheppards family per say, that is the mentality of the military, to protect their own, this is why they do things like send out rescue missions, putting the lives of many men on the line, to save a downed pilot or stranded patrol or anything of the sort. The wraith drones that woke up provided a direct threat to the safety of the team which had to be dealt with.

[FallenAngelII]

In this respect, Todd isn't completely free of blame either. He could have taken it upon himself to release his crew, instead of seeking/waiting for Sheppard's approval.

Yeah, I'm sure John would've loved that and not have shot him on sight.

And he was kinda occupied with trying to save everyone's lives. He had no reason to release his crew from stasis. For one thing, it'd only be needlessly risking their lives. There was nothing they could do to help (we're assuming) and every second they're out of stasis is a second during which the cancerous disease is given a chance to grow and kill them.

So it would make absolutely no sense to release them from stasis. Todd was actually protecting them by not releasing them. He had no way of knowing John would condemn them all to death.

It kind of surprised me a little that Todd didn't do the same actually.

Cancerous disease slowly killing them off one of by one unless they are in stasis...

the problem with most of your arguments is that you are making it simply a numbers game, you are asking would you kill 12 to save 1000 or would you be willing to sacrifice the 12. Let me ask you this, how many people would you be willing to kill to protect your own family? While the people on the hive werent sheppards family per say, that is the mentality of the military, to protect their own, this is why they do things like send out rescue missions, putting the lives of many men on the line, to save a downed pilot or stranded patrol or anything of the sort. The wraith drones that woke up provided a direct threat to the safety of the team which had to be dealt with.

The problem is even with the lock in place to suffocate any Wraith whose stasis pod lost power, they still had the ability to walk around and save those who weren't mindless drones.

They didn't.

Tell me, if you had to kill off 1000 people but 12 of them could be saved at no risk to yourself (Todd must have told his hive to not hurt any humans trying to help them), would you not? And if so, would you be able to defend yourself for your indifference when people criticize you for it?

[naamiaiset]

Yeah, I'm sure John would've loved that and not have shot him on sight.

That's why I said "who knows how Sheppard would have reacted".

And he was kinda occupied with trying to save everyone's lives. He had no reason to release his crew from stasis. For one thing, it'd only be needlessly risking their lives. There was nothing they could do to help (we're assuming) and every second they're out of stasis is a second during which the cancerous disease is given a chance to grow and kill them.

So it would make absolutely no sense to release them from stasis. Todd was actually protecting them by not releasing them. He had no way of knowing John would condemn them all to death.

Cancerous disease slowly killing them off one of by one unless they are in stasis...

The disease was afflicting Todd also and he was able-bodied, for the most part. Had he released his crew (minus warriors), they could've gone to the planet at the end - which yes, would have presented a problem, Atlantis would not have welcomed hundreds of wraith at their doorstep. If nothing else, letting his crew out could've been a precautionary measure. He knew the hull, life support, so on, was malfunctioning.

There are other hives in the alliance he/his crew could have boarded afterwards and went to the planet in. Todd has joined new hives before. The welfare of his crew was one of his primary concerns and their risk from the disease out of stasis was the same as his. At least if they were free, they wouldn't have been stationary targets for Sheppard... and if Todd gave the order, the team wouldn't have been in danger from them either.

[GoSpikey]

In this respect, Todd isn't completely free of blame either. He could have taken it upon himself to release his crew, instead of seeking/waiting for Sheppard's approval. Although, if he had, who knows how Sheppard would have reacted. Provided Todd's crew followed his orders though (aka, not to harm the team), there really wouldn't have been much Sheppard could have protested to. If it was Sheppard's own team trapped, he wouldn't have hesitated doing anything to help them. It kind of surprised me a little that Todd didn't do the same actually.

Another thing to bring up in that regard...

Todd was awake when those Warriors were free, right? If they are just primitive beasts that go for the jugular with their teeth when they aren't being mentally controlled, then why doesn't Todd say they have to stop doing that and behave?

Unless they weren't listening post-transformation. But then Todd had to have noticed that, before turning the entire Warriors...

So, there was probably not that much wrong with the Warriors before they went into the pods. Then why, when they get out, does Todd not mentally control them and tells them to stand down, even though they are possibly hungry. Or if they're not hungry, then they just attack because they can.

Some slip ups in that ep, or what?

[naamiaiset]

Another thing to bring up in that regard...

Todd was awake when those Warriors were free, right? If they are just primitive beasts that go for the jugular with their teeth when they aren't being mentally controlled, then why doesn't Todd say they have to stop doing that and behave?

Maybe Todd was too weak mentally? That theory loses steam at the end though when it seems like he's mentally flying the ship (even if Mallozzi says he isn't.)

[GoSpikey]

Yeah... I get that the guy might have been in pain, because who knows how many tumors he had, and where, and he was also busy with Keller, but why the *cough* didn't they ask him to spank the Warriors for a moment, there...

And it's impossible that he didn't have to somewhat mentally control it, even what Mallozzi says. Chris played it like that, and Teyla always does, too. I get that they have other projects to look forward to, and that writing an SGA movie, and having written those final episodes might have been more of a chore than something fun, but suddenly saying that there's practically nothing mental about it is just wrong, imo.

Then why is there a conscious being creating the ship? The prettiest explanation is saying that a conscious being is fixing the ship when it is damaged, and that it also perhaps creates the pathway that allows the Wraith to communicate with each other.

And if it's Todd's Hive ship, how can the team put him in jail? Don't the doors also open mentally, or something? I don't know if that's ever been shown, I remember only manual door controls, but if you have a living ship, then it would be neat to have it done mentally, so the entity will listen to the residents of the Hive, or facility, when they say to open up the door. That would have been nice.

It would be good to someday hear the complete story what they came up with, for the ships, the Wraith, and all the rest, but I doubt it'll satisfy us.

[naamiaiset]

And it's impossible that he didn't have to somewhat mentally control it, even what Mallozzi says. Chris played it like that, and Teyla always does, too. I get that they have other projects to look forward to, and that writing an SGA movie, and having written those final episodes might have been more of a chore than something fun, but suddenly saying that there's practically nothing mental about it is just wrong, imo.

I agree, but it's nothing new for the writers to change their minds from one episode to the next.

And if it's Todd's Hive ship, how can the team put him in jail? Don't the doors also open mentally, or something? I don't know if that's ever been shown, I remember only manual door controls, but if you have a living ship, then it would be neat to have it done mentally, so the entity will listen to the residents of the Hive, or facility, when they say to open up the door. That would have been nice.

It's been shown that warriors can mentally open the prisons, so normal wraith should be able to. I don't think Todd was too worried about escape at that point, though.

[Infinite-Possibilities]

Perhaps they jammed the door? I don't know. Or did they put guards near him? I do not remember.

[Laura Dove]

Good point. I did forget about that one, but at the same time it was more of a payback for Shepperd letting him take his life. The Wraith do highly value honor, and it was the honorable thing to do since they needed each other to escape.

Then why should Todd be grateful when Sheppard merely lets him go at the end of "Infection"? How is it not merely a payback, and even less honourable than Todd's one? In "Common Ground", Sheppard's best interest is to free Todd to help with his own escape. Then Todd puts himself in personal danger to save his very life. In "Infection", Todd sacrifices his chance at a quick and painless death to save the lives of Sheppard's entire crew. Then Sheppard merely lets him go, with a good probability Todd will die anyway.

And that was all before Atlantis had 2 304s with Asgard uber beams and a full complement of drones to defend them . If Atlantis had that during The Siege then I think there would have been a far different outcome.

3 hives are enough to destroy one 304 with über-beams in "The Last Man", and we also know from "Be All My Sins Remember'd" that hives can withstand a good amount of drones.

He was bringing to light the difficultly of administering the treatment. At no time did he say the reason he was considering it was to save humans. During that same sequence he acknowledged the benefits of the drug to the Wraith. If it didn't benefit himself he wouldn't have even considered it. Don't tell me to back up my conclusions with quotes if you're going to pull them out of context.

What he said was that it would be easy to use the drug for the benefit of wraith, yes, but only by administering it only to those whose lives were expected to be short anyway. However, converting all wraith would not be for their benefit but for the benefit of humans, hence the difficulty to convince the others. The bottom line being that renouncing to their natural diet would mean the death of their civilisation ("what would we do, who would we be?")

How is it out of context?

How is he a hypocrite? His ideals are to protect humans, Wraith be damned. Has he ever said something to the contrary?

Condemning other people for doing the same you, yourself, do, is hypocrisy. Sheppard condemns Todd for protecting his kind, just as Sheppard himself does.

They are both military commanders with ethics, both keep their word etc etc. There is nothing wrong with their word or loyalty, however they do think strategically as any good military man or wraith does.

The way I view it, Todd and Shep are the exact same character, the only difference being that one has long white hair and a green complexion.
They are both ruthless, loyal, proud and have a sense of humor.

That's kind of our point: Both do the same. Then why is it "evil" from Todd and "good" from Sheppard? Why should Todd be punished for it by death while Sheppard should be admired?

In this respect, Todd isn't completely free of blame either. He could have taken it upon himself to release his crew, instead of seeking/waiting for Sheppard's approval.

AFAIK, Todd didn't know his crew was in danger to begin with? To him, they were better off safely in stasis than running around with a progressing cancer. That was the point of hibernation to begin with.

Sheppard never mentioned neither the man-eating warriors neither the recurring power shortages and the lock command. Admittedly, Todd might have noticed the power shortages when he ran his diagnostic on the ship, but I'm not sure he realised what was going on with his released uncontrolled warriors.

About the control of warriors, maybe it need to be done actively, and Todd was never aware that some of them were awake?

[naamiaiset]

AFAIK, Todd didn't know his crew was in danger to begin with? To him, they were better off safely in stasis than running around with a progressing cancer. That was the point of hibernation to begin with.

Todd knew life support was unstable and said the ship would be uninhabitable. Best case scenario, he could've let out his crew, reached the planet (can assume they would've been all right for the three days travel) and may have reversed the disease. Worst case scenario, they die outside of stasis just as they would in stasis in a disintegrating hive.

And even if the ship broke apart, the crew/team would've probably been in the front part of the ship and landed safely. What to do after that... that would've been tricky.

[Laura Dove]

Todd knew life support was unstable and said the ship would be uninhabitable. Best case scenario, he could've let out his crew, reached the planet (can assume they would've been all right for the three days travel) and may have reversed the disease. Worst case scenario, they die outside of stasis just as they would in stasis in a disintegrating hive.

Apparently his estimations were VERY optimistic about the state of the hive, because he thought they had 4 days before it would become uninhabitable, while it broke within hours or something. He probably thought any defective pod would simply release its occupant. What is weird is that he didn't realise the warriors would be a danger for Sheppard's team (even if he didn't care about them, he should have guessed they would take drastic measures). Either he didn't believe they would encounter uncontrolled warriors, or he was simply too sick and weak to think properly about everything like he usually does.

[StarOcean]

Maybe Todd was too weak mentally? That theory loses steam at the end though when it seems like he's mentally flying the ship (even if Mallozzi says he isn't.)

Wait. What?! You sure it wasn't sarcasm? That doesn't make sense.

Either he didn't believe they would encounter uncontrolled warriors, or he was simply too sick and weak to think properly about everything like he usually does.

He's been doing that since The Queen. I think maybe the writers realized that he was making our heroes look bad.

[Laura Dove]

He's been doing that since The Queen. I think maybe the writers realized that he was making our heroes look bad.

Or maybe it was sheer luck the writers managed to create a character more intelligent than themselves. (Or they know perfectly well he's making stupid decisions, but don't care any more because an intelligent character is less shiny than the love story of Rodney McKay and Jennifer Keller. )

[StarOcean]

Or maybe it was sheer luck the writers managed to create a character more intelligent than themselves. (Or they know perfectly well he's making stupid decisions, but don't care any more because an intelligent character is less shiny than the love story of Rodney McKay and Jennifer Keller. )

I actually think that a lot of the quality stuff is by accident and the actors are good enough to pounce on it when they see it.

And yeah. Characters making stupid decisions is an easy way to create drama. Except not. Simply by the fact of knowing it's a stupid decision.

Speaking of McKeller... I didn't like that scene between them. It seemed so... I dunno. High school? Can't figure out what rubbed me wrong.