Do you think that it is wrong how we treat the Wraith in the series?

[FallenAngelII]

Lack of power. They need ZPMs to clone people in any significant quantities, hence why Todd stole one from the Asurans.

To clone more Wraith. He didn't clone a single human, despite being short on food.

Tell me, if Todd is so smart, why didn't he clone some humans which were safe for consumption? There has been zero indication of the machine being able to mass clone humans.

I also noticed how you conveniently didn't address a single one of the issues I raised against your case.

[ciannwn]

But they don't. So either they are complete idiots with a death wish or it doesn't work. Or the show has bad writers. Take your pick.

I pick bad writers who just throw in anything which suits a particular story even if it doesn't make sense when added to what's gone before. The Travellers are an example of this.

http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s4/405.shtml

But the problem with Atlantis in the Pegasus Galaxy is we said that whenever a race would get technologically advanced the Wraith would come in and wipe them out. So there was never opportunity for a race to reach that level.

"So we decided, actually there is a way: We'll just put them in ships. And so there's an armada of ships that go from planet to planet.

All that we got in the way of Traveller history is that they used to have the resources to build new ships but don't any more. When did these people become a space faring race? How did they manage to build ships without the Wraith noticing their shipyards? I doubt if we'll ever get the answers to such questions because TPTB just wanted a technologically advanced race and didn't bother working out the details.

[Crazedwraith]

To clone more Wraith. He didn't clone a single human, despite being short on food.

When has Todd been shown to be lacking in food? He wanted to grow a super duper new army. He must have had a way too feed them.

Tell me, if Todd is so smart, why didn't he clone some humans which were safe for consumption? There has been zero indication of the machine being able to mass clone humans.

Stargate villains behaving stupidly? Say it ain't so.

I also noticed how you conveniently didn't address a single one of the issues I raised against your case.

What issues? You basically said "They haven't so they can't" to which I provided a reason why they couldn't lack of power.

Also you citied a lack of prove the device can clone humans. We know human cloning is well within Wraith capabillities. To the extent they can magically give clones all the memories of the original. Ref: The Kindred.

[Ouroboros]

Yes, but deers and cows are not sentient whilst Humans are. I don't eat meat because the Human digestive system was not designed to handle it properly, but even if meat were perfectly ok for Human physiology I'm still not sure I would eat meat. If I absolutely had to kill sentients to survive, I would committ suicide as I wouldn't be able to live with myself. If people with conscience refuse to eat even non-sentients, then imagine how they would feel about eating sentients?

Their species evolved to prey on humans and apparently humans alone so it was never really a matter of choice for them the way it is for vegetarian humans. That's the reason why psychologically they can't view humans as equals and likely don't even have the same sort of concept of sentient/non sentient that humans do. That concept itself is entirely a human invention used to elevate ourselves above the animals we eat/exploit for our needs. I have no doubt that their society has created something similar. Something which morally places Wraith above humans the same way we place ourselves above other animals. They could even use the same sort of logic if they wanted to. Most of the "we're sentient they're not" type of reasoning for viewing humans as superior to animals centers around intelligence and societal achievements. They could likewise point to their own technological and physical superiority to justify themselves as having the same right to abuse and consume humans as we do to abuse and consume animals. The easier way to do it would be to point to their immortality though. A human is going to die anyway, so what does it matter if he dies a few years sooner to feed a Wraith who'll live forever so long as he's fed? I'm not presenting these as my own viewpoints here but this is the sort of things they could easily come up with to justify their behaviour much the same way we do our behaviour toward animals. We created the concept of sentient/non sentient and then assigned this quality of sentience that we've decided we have and they don't supreme value in order to elevate ourselves as superior to them.

How is this noble? They allow Humans to breed again only so that they can be killed again. Those Humans of Pegasus are born only so that they can sustain the Wraith. And they lived in peace with one another? Lmao...what about the terror they inflict on Humans? It is incredible that they in 10,000 years never attempted to find a "Humane" substitute for Humans, even though there are some Wraiths, like the keeper and her cronies, that were awake at all times.

You're looking at it from the perspective of prey interaction still. They're never going to be nice to their prey. Empathising with the prey is anathema to the survival of any predator. I brought up their interactions with each other because if we could see that in addition to being brutal and dickish to humans they were also brutal and dickish to each other then that would suggest that they're just brutal dicks in general. We don't really see that though, not until very recetly in some isolated cases, so it shows us that their behaviour has more to do with the fact that they simply don't regard humans as equal, which is udnerstandable given the consequences of doing so to their survival. Since this has a very clear and obvious reasoning behind it, dehumanizing and abusing the prey makes it far easier to kill them on a regular basis which is what's needed for survival, it offers a better explanation for their behaviour than just "they're evil". We can see from their interactions with each other, where the whole predator/prey pressure isn't an issue, that if they didn't need to eat humans to survive they'd likely be a largely benign and peaceful species that was remarkably good at cooperating with each other. It's not some fundamental part of their nature to be abusive dicks to everyone in other words, it's just the inevitable result of having to regularly kill people in order to live that causes them to, predictably, be dicks to those said people.

During the 1930s and WWII, the Nazi Germans had an extremely low rate of crime of German against German, and yet they were rounding up and gasing Jews. I don't think the way Wraith treat each other make up for the way they treat Humans; it actually makes them more odious in my eyes, in the same way that a racist treating his kin kindly while discriminating against those not of his race makes him even more odious.

In neither of those cases though are the abuses of the abuser fundamentally necessary to their basic survival the way it is for the Wraith. Nazi's and racists aren't each confronted with a painful and inevitable personal death by starvation if they decide to not act racist and/or not kill people. They do those things because they choose to not because they have to.

[FallenAngelII]

When has Todd been shown to be lacking in food? He wanted to grow a super duper new army. He must have had a way too feed them.

Because the Wraith in general were suffering from a lack of food? Why would Todd magically be special?

Stargate villains behaving stupidly? Say it ain't so.

Todd is not a villain. He's kinda an anti-hero.

What issues? You basically said "They haven't so they can't" to which I provided a reason why they couldn't lack of power.

* Did you see how that cloning facility worked? It wasn't "Stick some DNA into it and watch it go".
* We know they have scientists working on ways to "improve" the feeding process. If cloning was viable, they probably would've been doing it, especially now when they are starving.
* The PTB just leave too many plot holes. The Wraith are not stupid (unless they are facing the Atlantis expedition in battle, then all bets are off). There's no reason not to clone their livestock, especially at the current moment, when they are starving and dying.

Even if takes a lot of energy, if humans can build Nahquadah generators, I'm perfectly confident the Wraith can build energy sources of the same level (or better). It might not be enough to constantly churn out humans, but why not clone at least a few now that your food supply is tainted and feeding could result in death?

If it's possible, why not head for a cloning facility and clone just a few safe clones for at least the Queen and Hive leaders to feed on without fear of death?

Also you citied a lack of prove the device can clone humans. We know human cloning is well within Wraith capabillities. To the extent they can magically give clones all the memories of the original. Ref: The Kindred.

We know Michael can do it. Also, did you happen to notice how clone!Carson was dying without constant dosage of some drug? Who knows kind of side effects that would have on him as a food source (if he hadn't received the Hoffan inoculation).

Michael is also able to create Evil Hybrids. All Wraith must be capable of this, right? Hey, Apophis had a personal shield. Pray tell, why didn't all Goa'uld have this? Just because one member of a race comes up with something doesn't mean all members of that race can do it.

Because it requires a lot of research to perfect human cloning. Maybe they put down research into it but deemed in unviable... especially since the best Michael could do was a clone that would die on its own within weeks without a constant dosage of drugs.

[Crazedwraith]

Because the Wraith in general were suffering from a lack of food? Why would Todd magically be special?

There's not enough food to go around all the hives yes but there's never been any indication Todd's Alliance is going short in the food department. They're presumably hanging on to enough territory to feed themselves, while other hives are going hungry because they can't challenge the Alliance for food.

Todd is not a villain. He's kinda an anti-hero.

Indeed but we're not talking about Todd as an individual but of the wraith as a species and about the claim that the wraith aren't evil, they're just trying to feed.

* Did you see how that cloning facility worked? It wasn't "Stick some DNA into it and watch it go".
* We know they have scientists working on ways to "improve" the feeding process. If cloning was viable, they probably would've been doing it, especially now when they are starving.
* The PTB just leave too many plot holes. The Wraith are not stupid (unless they are facing the Atlantis expedition in battle, then all bets are off). There's no reason not to clone their livestock, especially at the current moment, when they are starving and dying.

Except for that nagging lack of power.

Even if takes a lot of energy, if humans can build Nahquadah generators, I'm perfectly confident the Wraith can build energy sources of the same level (or better). It might not be enough to constantly churn out humans, but why not clone at least a few now that your food supply is tainted and feeding could result in death?

If it's possible, why not head for a cloning facility and clone just a few safe clones for at least the Queen and Hive leaders to feed on without fear of death?

Possibly, but then the facillities they have are set up to clone huge batches at once, for which they need a ZPM level power source. They may not be able to churn out smaller batches the device might have an initialisation energy so high you need a ZPM to even get the thing running.

We know Michael can do it. Also, did you happen to notice how clone!Carson was dying without constant dosage of some drug? Who knows kind of side effects that would have on him as a food source (if he hadn't received the Hoffan inoculation).

Micheal can do it,. Micheal who is a wraith, working entirely off a base of wraith knowledge and technology. Where he going to magically learn to clone humans when he gets chucked out of the Wraith collective and is scrounging a living for himself?

Micheal who had bugger all in the way resources, managed to do it. Why would it be so hard for a wraith with the full resources of an entire hive to do?

Michael is also able to create Evil Hybrids. All Wraith must be capable of this, right?

Why not? The Wraith have the whole racial purity thing going; they just don't want to make hybrids. They're not incapable of it.

Because it requires a lot of research to perfect human cloning. Maybe they put down research into it but deemed in unviable... especially since the best Michael could do was a clone that would die on its own within weeks without a constant dosage of drugs.

[FallenAngelII]

There's not enough food to go around all the hives yes but there's never been any indication Todd's Alliance is going short in the food department. They're presumably hanging on to enough territory to feed themselves, while other hives are going hungry because they can't challenge the Alliance for food.

Except he didn't have that alliance when he stole the ZPMs. He was starving just like anyone else.

Except for that nagging lack of power.

To mass produce millions of humans, yes. Not Todd had 3 ZPMs (or however many he stole). What did he do? Not attempt to clone a single human but planning to mass produce even more mouths to feed in order to get an advantage in the civil war.

Also, what about when the Ancient first deserted Pegasus? There were ZPMs coming out of the galaxy's wazoo. There had to be. How else could the Wraith keep mass producing more and more troops and ships to besiege Atlantis?

So once the Ancients were gone, there were lots of Wraith with many ZPMs left to spare (presumably). No human cloning them (that we know of), no human cloning now.

There has been absolutely no mention of the cloning facility being able to clone humans. Why assume they can and that the Wraith just choose not to?

Possibly, but then the facillities they have are set up to clone huge batches at once, for which they need a ZPM level power source.

So the Wraith built themselves a facility which can only clone huge batches and which can only be powered by ZPMs? Great thinking.

They may not be able to churn out smaller batches the device might have an initialisation energy so high you need a ZPM to even get the thing running.

The Wraith can manufacture Hive ships, which require tons of energy to nurture. The Wraith have fly around in space in their Hives indefinitely. So they probably have some very capable power sources.

Micheal can do it,. Micheal who is a wraith, working entirely off a base of wraith knowledge and technology. Where he going to magically learn to clone humans when he gets chucked out of the Wraith collective and is scrounging a living for himself?

Michael put extra time, resources and effort into it. Michael was also most probably a scientist by trade. And he still got an imperfect result. clone!Beckett would die without constant treatment. What would that do the feeding process?

Also, are you saying the Wraith can clone single humans without utilizing huge quantities of energy (at least not huge enough to require ZPMs) but simply choose not to despite civil war and famine?

Micheal who had bugger all in the way resources, managed to do it. Why would it be so hard for a wraith with the full resources of an entire hive to do?

Because maybe he discovered something the others did not.

Why not? The Wraith have the whole racial purity thing going; they just don't want to make hybrids. They're not incapable of it.

Michael's hybrids are better than the Wraith, though. The Wraith don't like half-humans because they view humans are bad. But a Wraith with Wraith strength, powers and without the need to feed? They'd probably be up for that.

Also, why did you not reply to the part where I point out that Michael's human clones are flawed?

I contend that it's not possible that the Wraith can clone humans that are viable for Wraith consumption, yet they choose not to despite a civil war breaking out due to food shortage and famine.

Because that would just be ridiculous.

[Crazedwraith]

I'm going to have to concede that if they could have they probably would have by now. Maybe Carson's clone can't actually sustain wraith as well as ordinary humans. Maybe clones just aren't tasty enough though.

Although here's a thought we know they don't have any problem cloning or eating fellow wraith? Why not make a few extra drones to snack on in emergencies?

[pcat]

There is no proof that Michael's clones are flawed. There is proof that he introduced a flaw to keep carson in line and manageable (if he escapes, he dies).

Just beacuse the conlener was not used for humans, it means the process won't work for humans? I would assume in the being they did not need to clone humans since they were litterally all around ready to be picked and eaten fresh. Once there was a food shortage, they probably could have started cloning humans, but when they had the power required to operate the machine they chose soldiers. who knows, if atlantis had not destroyed it, they may have turned to human cloning to feed the new troops (if todd was in charge, otherwise detroy the current queen would have destroyed the other wriath and taken the feeding grounds)

[garhkal]

They have giant cloning facilities. They could clone their food. Clone a bunch of brain dead humans to eat. All they would have to do to acheive this was negotiate with the Ancient for ZPMs to clone food of themselves. They didn't they attempted genocide on the Ancients instead.

Do we know whether they would even gain any "nutrition" that way?? Would a clone have the necessary life force for consuming?

Their society also seems largely if not completely devoid of any kind of Wraith on Wraith crime that isn't war related.

Very true, but look at them now, and it is like us humans.. Killin one another over resources.

Yes, but deers and cows are not sentient whilst Humans are.

Only cause WE humans deem what is and is not sentient. To wraiths we are not. Same as gou'ald... to them humans are cattle as sheep are to us.

If it's possible, why not head for a cloning facility and clone just a few safe clones for at least the Queen and Hive leaders to feed on without fear of death?

If that was possible, why would they not have already used it so they would not have even had to war with one another over diminishing human supplies... BECAUSE for all we know it is NOT.

There has been absolutely no mention of the cloning facility being able to clone humans. Why assume they can and that the Wraith just choose not to?

Because it is easier to believe they don;t so they remain evil to many.

[FallenAngelII]

Although here's a thought we know they don't have any problem cloning or eating fellow wraith? Why not make a few extra drones to snack on in emergencies?

They have problems with it. Which is why it's so rarely done, only in times of desperate need, like being stranded somewhere.

And who knows? Maybe clones can't sustain them, period? It's a flawed process? Who knows. After all, the grunts are mindless animals under constant mind control.

There is no proof that Michael's clones are flawed. There is proof that he introduced a flaw to keep carson in line and manageable (if he escapes, he dies).

Your definition of "proof" is questionable. What possible irrefutable (or even circumstancial) proof do you have that the flaw wasn't inherent but introduced only to keep Carson in line?

We have proof of the opposite. For one thing, Michael didn't tell Carson about it. If he wanted to use it as a weapon against Carson, he would've told Carson, to prevent any attempts to escape.

Just beacuse the conlener was not used for humans, it means the process won't work for humans?

Read what I said. If it works, why haven't they done it, despite staving to death?

I like it how you love to make leaps of logic and assume the hell out of things and then calling your assumptions "proof".

[pcat]

If Carson knew about the built in limitation, he could have tried to find a way to circumvent it (cure or steal the medicine). Why in the world would michael disclose this. He could always clone another if he escapes and start over.

Cloning: THEY DID NOT HAVE THE ZPM's. when they got them they were stolen by rival wraith and an ARMY of wraith was cloned.

[Lord batchi ball]

Going by that logic it's OK for Wraith to eat humans, then. Humans commit genocide and other atrocities against their own kind. Then there's the wars that humans have fought for thousands of years - evidence goes back to Neolithic times for organised warfare.

http://eserver.org/history/neolithic-war.txt

Finally there have been murders and violent crimes throughout history too.

The Stargate Earth is supposed to be our Earth and we know there are wars on it because Sheppard was in Afghanistan.

That was what I was thinking.

[FallenAngelII]

If Carson knew about the built in limitation, he could have tried to find a way to circumvent it (cure or steal the medicine). Why in the world would michael disclose this. He could always clone another if he escapes and start over.

Cloning: THEY DID NOT HAVE THE ZPM's. when they got them they were stolen by rival wraith and an ARMY of wraith was cloned.

Michael seems perfectly capable of cloning humans without the use of a ZPM (as far as we know). Cloning obviously doesn't require a ZPM.

[Ouroboros]

I'm going to have to concede that if they could have they probably would have by now. Maybe Carson's clone can't actually sustain wraith as well as ordinary humans. Maybe clones just aren't tasty enough though.

Although here's a thought we know they don't have any problem cloning or eating fellow wraith? Why not make a few extra drones to snack on in emergencies?

In stargateverse it seems the question has been answered, clones have no soul.



^^^SOULLESS ABOMINATION?