She's trying to change him

[Crazedwraith]

I'm sorry, I said it was unrealistic when?

I'm sorry. I said you said that. Where? It was not disagreeing with you on this point. Simply adding an addendum.

But that is not loving someone unconditionally "for a very long time". That's loving certain aspects of someone.

You can love someone and still acknowledge they have flaws. You can still love them unconditionally and want to help them better themselves. There's no evidence Keller's going to dump him if he doesn't improve for example.

No, I'm telling you to not interpret, ever. Take my words for their face value.

I'm not trying to do anything else.

Do not infer things, do not assume things. Half of the disagreements people have with me is over their inability to just take what I write at face value without "interpreting" that if I say something, I must also be saying this other, closely related thing.

Again not a mind reader. I'm not trying to infer anything from your posts, except through basic reading comphrension but what ever words you use, they're not going to mean exactly the same thing to everyone who reads them. Language is impressive in and of itself.

I said that his high image of himself, as in how intelligent he is. I never said he was never wrong. Of course, you could argue that part of Rodney's image of himself that he is never ever wrong but I've never seen or heard anything to indicate that.

He just thinks that him being wrong is highly unlikely. There was Doronda, after all.

I think we're splitting hairs of semantics here but McKay likes to think of himself as perfect. He's is obviously not.

Arrogance is never justified. Hence the Defination: having an exaggerated sense of one’s own importance or abilities

[FallenAngelII]

I'm sorry. I said you said that. Where? It was not disagreeing with you on this point. Simply adding an addendum.

Why even bring it up? I never said it was unrealistic. I don't think anyone's said that. Why argue against something no one's arguing?

And why tack it onto the same sentence in which you specifically reference what I've said? "The behaviour you describe is still not unrealistic". It's a perfectly valid interpretation that by this, you mean that I think it's unrealistic.

You can love someone and still acknowledge they have flaws. You can still love them unconditionally and want to help them better themselves. There's no evidence Keller's going to dump him if he doesn't improve for example.

They barely know each other. This was their first date. We haven't seen them interact outside of work emergencies much either. They barely know anything about each other.

How could they both be deeply in love with each other, yet one side wanting to change the other when they don't even really know much about each other? Also, who says the changes Jennifer wants are all for the better? It's working perfectly well for Rodney. Why should he change just so the world doesn't view him in a way she dislikes? I think it's more of a selfish wish to have a boyfriend the world likes more.

Again not a mind reader. I'm not trying to infer anything from your posts, except through basic reading comphrension but what ever words you use, they're not going to mean exactly the same thing to everyone who reads them. Language is impressive in and of itself.

Yes, but I use basic English (most of the time). If I say something, assume that's all I'm saying. By not inferring, you won't have to be a mind reader. If something is unclear, ask for a clarification. Don't assume and then refute it.

I think we're splitting hairs of semantics here but McKay likes to think of himself as perfect. He's is obviously not.

No he doesn't. Where has he ever claimed that? In fact, Rodney knows he's flawed. He pretty much said so in this episode. He's not perfect and he knows it.

Arrogance is never justified. Hence the Defination: having an exaggerated sense of one’s own importance or abilities

Fine, let's switch words: Self confidence. Rodney's self confidence.

[Anon]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh so many quotes!!!!!!!!!!!! *gasp*

[Merlin1701]

It may suprise you but that what partners do, change each other. Sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse.

[Rosehawk]

There yet to be a thread about this, so I thought I whip one up.

Interesting discussion topic!

Very few people seem to make note of how much Jennifer is trying to change Rodney. She gave Rodney tons of disapproving looks in this episode and talked down on his behavior several times. She also actively tried to change him in several ways.

Hummm, I really don't see where Jennifer was actively trying to change Rodney. Nothing that we haven't seen Weir, Sheppard or Carson do on occasion. Rodney has a big ego, sometimes that ego is not appropriate and gets in the way. When that happens Rodney needs someone to keep him focused at the task at hand and that is what it appeared to me that Jennifer felt she was doing with Rodney.

Umm... what? She's been deeply in love with him "for a very long time"... but it's not really him she's in love with but the him he can be after she's through with changing him? Sounds like true love to me.

Jennifer knows all too well what Rodney is all about. She's worked with him and I am pretty sure she knows what she is getting into. I really don't see where she is trying to change him. If he is doing something that embarasses her, is she just suppose to shut up and take it and not say anything? That's not exactly love or healthy for a relationship either. Besides then he is expecting her to change for him.

And then Rodney is all complacent and willing to change his personality in several ways just because she wants him to. No, no, Mr. Smartest Man in Two Galaxies.

I think Rodney is complacent because this is a first date and he is trying to make a good impression. Obviously her opinion is important to him or he wouldn't have listen to her.
No one can change anyone's personality without their permission whether that permission is given verbally or nonverbally.

If she truly loves you, she'll just have to deal with it. It's not like Rodney's qualities are really, really bad. In fact, he was right about everything he said.

That's part of the process of learning about each other. Their relationship is changing. It's not a doctor patient or friend friend thing anymore. It's going to a whole new level of learning about each other.

Jennifer even disapproved (seemingly) of him wanting at least partial credit for saving the day when he so clearly did. She seemed unable to grasp why it was important. Why? Because some hack who stole his ideas from Rodney just got the credit for saving the day when that was also stolen from Rodney. Meanwhile, Rodney was considered to be either dead or discredited for years.

Jennifer also comes from a bit of a different background and it is possible that who stole what ideas was not as important to her as it was to Rodney.
It's kind of normal when two people are getting to know each other that their different backgrounds are going to come into the picture. They are not going to see everything exactly the same. It's all apart of learning about each other. As a medical doctor, her success is more measure by whether the patient lives or dies, gets better or sicker; things that in general makes who's getting credit for something seem not a big deal where as as someone in the science community like Rodney who was use to publishing papers as the way to measure success in his world, it would be important.

Someone should not get to reap the benefits of others without punishment. But, apparently, that was too surreal of a concept for Jennifer and Rodney seemed apologetic for wanting the credit, as if it was a bad thing.

Again, I think their different backgrounds comes into play here.

I also think that since this was their first date, Rodney was trying to put on a good first impression which meant he gave in abit.

No, no, Ms. Keller. Love him for who he is, not who you want him to be! Because that's not loving the man unconditionally at all!

Unconditional love does not mean that both people's differences won't come into play in a relationship. Those differences need to be worked and and give and take comes from both sides.

[Dwparsnip]

Even if he doesn't, it won't mean he hasn't thought about it, which is what he said. He didn't say he was going to.

A semantic debate. Could he have thought about it, I suppose he could have.

It's worth noting that when Jennifer said that he didn't think about it, his argument for leaving wasn't exactly passionate. perhaps we can infer from that that perhaps he thought about it and didn't seriously consider the option of leaving.

In the absence of hard evidence fans are forced to make suppositions and jump to conclusions about the characters that they watch. those suppositions and conclusions are naturally subjective.

I choose to believe that the Rodney I have come to know wouldn't seriously consider leaving Atlantis. At least, not unless a very good reason came about, like all his team dying and his love leaving.

Rodney wrote the paper Tunney stole his theory from. Rodney also came up with the plan which eventually saved everybody. Rodney thought it was preposterous he received zero credit for it (I agree).

Jennifer thought it was strange for him to want credit for it.

Why do we presume to know what she was thinking? I could easily suggest that she thought that Rodney's work is classified and what's the point of bellyaching over taking credit for something that no one can know because your work is classified.

What would have happened if he had managed to convince them not to turn it on? For one thing, no structural damage and no people getting hurt.

Rodney was trying to stop a catastrophe.

Rodney said himself that his peers considered him to be a burned out recluse, and Bill Nye and the other guy (I'm too lazy to go and find his name) made a big deal out of ridiculing Rodney over his apparent overzealous willingness to take credit for works and ideas that may or may not have actually been his.

Do you honestly believe that had Rodney been able to continue his rant in the theater that anyone would believe him?

Jennifer was kidnapped for most of "Tracker". She wouldn't know exactly what Rodney and Ronon did.

one would presume that she heard about it all afterward, PLUS it was Rodney and Ronon who came after her.

Jennifer was also trapped in her own body in "The Seed" and, hey, wasn't it Ronon and John who went out to save the day in that one?

And I'm fairly certain that it was Rodney who donned a quarantine suit and went into her room and tried to reassure her that she would okay.

Rodney barely contributed since he was in quarantine.

A little reassurance can go a long way when you're scared to death that you're going to die.

[Crazedwraith]

Why even bring it up? I never said it was unrealistic. I don't think anyone's said that. Why argue against something no one's arguing?

And why tack it onto the same sentence in which you specifically reference what I've said? "The behaviour you describe is still not unrealistic". It's a perfectly valid interpretation that by this, you mean that I think it's unrealistic.

Aright, I think you have me here. My apologies; I did initially present the realism aspect as opposed to your original statements. You stated that Keller was trying to change Rodney and presented this is a negative light.
I did take the assumption that this negativity was because you felt unrealistic in two people who were supposed to be love to behaviour like this. Perhaps you instead were just outlining why you dislike Keller's character?

I will concede that perhaps I'm inferring more from you posts than I realised. I shall try and refrain from it in the future.

They barely know each other. This was their first date. We haven't seen them interact outside of work emergencies much either. They barely know anything about each other.

There's alot more that happens at Atlantis off screen and on. We haven't seen them interact outside emergencies because we don't see what happens outside emergencies very often.

How could they both be deeply in love with each other, yet one side wanting to change the other when they don't even really know much about each other? Also, who says the changes Jennifer wants are all for the better? It's working perfectly well for Rodney. Why should he change just so the world doesn't view him in a way she dislikes? I think it's more of a selfish wish to have a boyfriend the world likes more.

This is perfectly true. Why can't Keller's character be a bit selfish? Character flaws are good. Nobody should be perfect.

No he doesn't. Where has he ever claimed that? In fact, Rodney knows he's flawed. He pretty much said so in this episode. He's not perfect and he knows it.

Pick an Episode. Any Episode He's never used those exact words but its always what he means. 'Always right' as come up an number of times.

Fine, let's switch words: Self confidence. Rodney's self confidence.

No, you had it right, the first time. Rodney isn't self confident. He is arrogant., to cover up for his insecurities. He's says it himself in Tao. Look at any time any woman shows interest in him. (Keller in this and in Trio, and that girl who he thought thought he was hot in Tao of Rodney)

[FallenAngelII]

Hummm, I really don't see where Jennifer was actively trying to change Rodney. Nothing that we haven't seen Weir, Sheppard or Carson do on occasion.

Not to the same extent as Jennifer.

Rodney has a big ego, sometimes that ego is not appropriate and gets in the way. When that happens Rodney needs someone to keep him focused at the task at hand and that is what it appeared to me that Jennifer felt she was doing with Rodney.

What exactly was so wrong with Rodney trying to warn people? If they didn't heed his warning, big diff. If they did, whoopie. Nevertheless, she tried to stop him.

Jennifer knows all too well what Rodney is all about. She's worked with him and I am pretty sure she knows what she is getting into.

They work in the same city. They don't work together. She's a medical doctor and he's a scientist. Outside of senior officer briefings and medical emergencies, their work doesn't bring them together much.

I really don't see where she is trying to change him. If he is doing something that embarasses her, is she just suppose to shut up and take it and not say anything?

Ah, but there's the rub. It's embarrassing for her. It's not at all about making him a better man. It's just that she doesn't want to be embarrrassed.

That's not exactly love or healthy for a relationship either. Besides then he is expecting her to change for him.

Why would someone smart care what lesser intelligent people think? Big whoop if some people you'll never see again think badly of you or your date.

I think Rodney is complacent because this is a first date and he is trying to make a good impression. Obviously her opinion is important to him or he wouldn't have listen to her.
No one can change anyone's personality without their permission whether that permission is given verbally or nonverbally.

This has nothing to do with my argument.

That's part of the process of learning about each other. Their relationship is changing. It's not a doctor patient or friend friend thing anymore. It's going to a whole new level of learning about each other.

They're supposed to know each other well enough to have both been in love with each other for a very long time.

Unconditional love does not mean that both people's differences won't come into play in a relationship. Those differences need to be worked and and give and take comes from both sides.

Unconditional love means not wanting to change someone's personality just because it's embarrassing for you.

A semantic debate. Could he have thought about it, I suppose he could have.

It's what Rodney said. He said he'd thought about quitting. Jennifer said he was lying. I think he wasn't lying at all.

It's not semantics at all. Rodney merely said he'd thought about it. Thinking about something and planning on doing it are entirely different things.

I choose to believe that the Rodney I have come to know wouldn't seriously consider leaving Atlantis. At least, not unless a very good reason came about, like all his team dying and his love leaving.

He never used the word "seriously" and neither did I. He had thought about it, possibly in passing.

Why do we presume to know what she was thinking? I could easily suggest that she thought that Rodney's work is classified and what's the point of bellyaching over taking credit for something that no one can know because your work is classified.

She thought it strange he wanted credit for coming up with the brilliant plan (and how to do it) to save the day. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, especially when for years, his peers had looked down on him.

Rodney said himself that his peers considered him to be a burned out recluse, and Bill Nye and the other guy (I'm too lazy to go and find his name) made a big deal out of ridiculing Rodney over his apparent overzealous willingness to take credit for works and ideas that may or may not have actually been his.

Yes, and what better way to shut them up than to tell people how brilliant Rodney was and how he just saved their behinds?

Do you honestly believe that had Rodney been able to continue his rant in the theater that anyone would believe him?

Did I say that?

one would presume that she heard about it all afterward, PLUS it was Rodney and Ronon who came after her.

One would presume they didn't go into detail about exactly what they did when trying to find her. So it's not like she'd know all of the stuff Rodney went through to try and save her.

And I'm fairly certain that it was Rodney who donned a quarantine suit and went into her room and tried to reassure her that she would okay.

But he didn't save the day. I thought that was what you were speaking of.

[Happytree_8]

1- On the whole issue of Jennifer thinking it odd that Rodney wanted credit, I don't think she thought it odd @ all. When she said "does it really matter", she was probably refering to the very valid point of them all being alive. She was legally dead, do you really think she cares who saved what? She's alive, Rodney's alive, everybody in the facility is alive, it doesn't matter who did it.

2- Yes, you can love someone but not like certain qualities about them. That is what helps make love unconditional, loving someone for everything they are, even the things you dont' like. My boyfriend does things I dislike all the time and I let him know I don't like them and try to suggest ways to make it better, but, if he doesn't want to do it, that's his choice, I won't leave him for it and Keller didn't hint in the least that she would with Rodney. Infact, she kissed him and admitted love for him AFTER his outburst during the presentation, the pinnicle of his inability to let things be and deal with it at a more appropriate time.

3- Why is everybody so critical in thinking that she doesn't want to be embarrassed and that's why she tried to get Rodney to be more humble. Maybe she realizes it will take more than a "beautiful woman" to make people think of him differently. She is probably trying to get him to be polite in public so he doesn't embarrass HIMSELF. Love is, afterall, wanting what's best for the other person. He can bash people all he wants in private, but in public, making a scene, that is a diffrent story and disrespectful.

[FallenAngelII]

3- Why is everybody so critical in thinking that she doesn't want to be embarrassed and that's why she tried to get Rodney to be more humble. Maybe she realizes it will take more than a "beautiful woman" to make people think of him differently. She is probably trying to get him to be polite in public so he doesn't embarrass HIMSELF. Love is, afterall, wanting what's best for the other person. He can bash people all he wants in private, but in public, making a scene, that is a diffrent story and disrespectful.

If she's doing it so that she won't be embarrassed, then it's bad. If it's to "make him a better person", then it's not bad (depending).

[Dwparsnip]

If she's doing it so that she won't be embarrassed, then it's bad. If it's to "make him a better person", then it's not bad (depending).

That we can agree on.

And I think that's how she meant it.

[FallenAngelII]

That we can agree on.

And I think that's how she meant it.

Which one? I gave up two options.

[s09119]

My opinion is that Keller sees the good man Rodney is underneath all his hubris and need to always be right, and just wants to bring it out. He's arrogant and ruse, yes, but we've seen time and again that behind it all is a man that truly cares for others (consider his passionate defense of Elizabeth in "The Storm"). I don't think it's that Jennifer is embarrassed of him or anything, as she's never done any of the typical things such as inching away when he's acting up, trying to distance herself from him, etc. She really does care about him, and wants to try and help him be a better person.

And before anyone yells, "That's changing him!!!!!^@2352q3651325111!!," I would ask you to think of things like addiction interventions. Yes, the aim is to change the person, but the desired outcome would be better for the person and his/her friends and family. So Keller may be trying to change McKay, yes, but it would certainly be a change for the better.

[Rosehawk]

Not to the same extent as Jennifer.

Maybe not but none of them wanted to go out with Rodney either.

What exactly was so wrong with Rodney trying to warn people? If they didn't heed his warning, big diff. If they did, whoopie. Nevertheless, she tried to stop him.

Never said there was anything wrong in trying to warn people. However it had already been setup earlier that when Rodney was working with these guys, that he always said that their ideas were something he was working on, that premise was set when the scientists were talking in front of Keller, so when McKay gets up to take to warn people it seems as if he is trying to take credit for Tuney's work and so the warning that McKay was trying to communicate wasn't being heard. Why shouldn't she feel uncomfortable and want to stop him. He didn't listen, he still did what he felt ws right and he did look like a fool until he was vindicated at the end of the show.

They work in the same city. They don't work together. She's a medical doctor and he's a scientist. Outside of senior officer briefings and medical emergencies, their work doesn't bring them together much.

They have been on a few missions together (Trio for one) and we really don't know how much time they interact outside of work. His hypocondriac behavior would have him heading to the infirmary alot - Keller did refer to him once as 'her favorite patient' so they have had enough contact with each other that Keller knows what Rodney is all about.

Ah, but there's the rub. It's embarrassing for her. It's not at all about making him a better man. It's just that she doesn't want to be embarrrassed.

And what is wrong with not wanting to be embarrassed?? If she thought what Rodney was saying was out of line or wrong, why wouldn't she want to stop him from a perception that he was going to make a fool of himself.

Why would someone smart care what lesser intelligent people think? Big whoop if some people you'll never see again think badly of you or your date.

Well, some people do care regardless of someone's intelligence.

This has nothing to do with my argument.

It has everything to do with your argument. You stated that Jennifer was trying to change Rodney. I was simply stating that Rodney wasn't changing so much as he was trying to put on a good impression as most people try to do on a first date.

They're supposed to know each other well enough to have both been in love with each other for a very long time.

So what's the point,? That they know each other well enough that they've been in love for a very long time and that they aren't suppose to say something to someone if it bothers them?
People in love are going to do things that irrate the other person, doesn't change the fact that they still love each other.

Unconditional love means not wanting to change someone's personality just because it's embarrassing for you.

Unconditional love means accepting someone just the way they are. It doesn't mean that if they do something that bothers you that you don't have the right to say something. Unconditional love goes both ways.

[Dwparsnip]

Which one? I gave up two options.

Sorry.

If she's doing it so that she won't be embarrassed, then it's bad. If it's to "make him a better person", then it's not bad (depending).

I agree with this in its entirety.

When I said I think that's how she meant it, I meant option two: she did it to help him to be a better person.