Is it logical for Carter to go off-world?

[FallenAngelII]

Kind of different thing don't you think? I've never said you have to accept that she went on the mission. If you feel she did completely wrong, then okay. I don't mind that. I've only stated my own opinion here.

Yes, but still. We have our opinions. But the argument "It's her decision to make" is a faulty argument I've seen thrown around far too much (not just when it comes to Sam, just things in general. "It's their decision to make!"... as if that's relevant or changes anything).

[cavalierlwt]

I think the pros and cons have reached their consensus on it. Stuff like this really keeps the writers on their toes. At least they know we're paying attention and giving the show some thought!

[prion]

And she is still the leader of Atlantis. When accepting a high position like that, you have to accept that fact that you won't be going into the field. Leaders lead, field workers work in the fields.

And in this case, Sam had an entire city full of qualified personnel better suited than her to go.

WHen people get promoted upwards, they don't go out in the field, or down to the trenches. They get to sit behind a desk and send other people off to the field.

Well, at least half the city was qualified. They have to have more than a dozen military personnel, after all, they need to protect the scientists. I'd say at least a third of the folks there are military, so yes, there had to have been someone there. Realistically, what did Carter do that any other 'red shirt' could'nt have done? All she did was toss in a flashbang, but otherwise, anybody else could have done that particular job. The writers wanted her there, and well, that's why she was there. Integrate the character, have the viewers accept her on the show, etc. It's pretty simple. Not necessarily logical, but simple.

Oh, and can folks not post Doppelganger spoilers here? not everyone has seen it

[elbo]

The commander of a military facility like Atlantis, can go in missions. There is no rule to prohibit this.

The important missions, like this one is imperative to be lead by the ranking officer or the officer with the biggest experience in the field or those sort of missions, and this is ... Samantha Carter.

Yes, this is another the reason why the command of Atlantis was given to Sam, a character who acumulated a huge combat/field experience that can be used in certain situatuations and provide more writing solutions.

If TPTB would have wanted a desk bureaucrat with superiority complexes, they would have kept Weir or bring another black suit or red blouse to dramatise every situation. If you are arguing every thing related to Sam, you in fact arguing the decision to bring Sam over to Atlantis. I think we pass that, there is no return, TPTB already made the call. We now can either whine or enjoy the show.

And don't expect TPTB to destroy Sam's character, but to enrich it. I expect her to go off-world in situations even less logical than this one who was in fact a obligation, because Sam is not that character to stay in her office when her friends or flag team are in need and she is the most qualified person to help. Weir would have done the same thing if she would have the expertise, in fact she did the same thing, in 'Lifeline' when she left the jumper.

And also don't forget that Lorne is not main cast and Sam is, no matter how much some of you would want, so i don't expect to see Lorne more than Sam. The question is, why do you?

[elbo]

WHen people get promoted upwards, they don't go out in the field, or down to the trenches. They get to sit behind a desk and send other people off to the field.

Sam is a full bird colonel. With the same rank, Jack didn't even knew he had an office in SG1.

If by 'promotion' you are reffering to commander of a base like SGC or Atlantis, is true that there is some desk work involved but there is no rule to prohibit the commander to participate in missions form time to time, is special circumstances, because in normal circumstances i don't remember Sam being part of any Atlantis 4 members team, so we can't speak actually about field work how you say, can't we?

Well, at least half the city was qualified. They have to have more than a dozen military personnel, after all, they need to protect the scientists. I'd say at least a third of the folks there are military, so yes, there had to have been someone there. Realistically, what did Carter do that any other 'red shirt' could'nt have done? All she did was toss in a flashbang, but otherwise, anybody else could have done that particular job. The writers wanted her there, and well, that's why she was there. Integrate the character, have the viewers accept her on the show, etc. It's pretty simple. Not necessarily logical, but simple.

There are more degrees of qualification and Sam had the highest in those type of missions, plus she was briefed by Ronon and would have been a waste of important time to brief again someonelse less qualified.

[silkie]

Sam shouldn't have gone on the rescue mission! If captured then who was going to lead Atlantis - Chuck? Not to mention that we'd have lost Rodney, her and Zelenka - the top 3 lead scientists Earth has!
I can understand why she made the emotional decision to lead the rescue mission - she wanted to prove herself to Atlantis personnel (especially Ronon), but that doesn't mean I support her decision. Guess when your hubby is head of HWS you can get away with anything...

[Cautious Explorer]

The commander of a military facility like Atlantis, can go in missions. There is no rule to prohibit this.

The important missions, like this one is imperative to be lead by the ranking officer or the officer with the biggest experience in the field or those sort of missions, and this is ... Samantha Carter.

What exactly was it about this mission that required Carter's presence as opposed to a gate team already stationed in Atlantis with previous experience dealing with the Wraith, and working with Sheppard's team?

This was her first day in a new position, among people she hadn't worked with before, in an unfamiliar galaxy, fighting an enemy she had never met. Where exactly does her special expertise come in?

Someone capable of command should have the wisdom to step aside when there are more experienced people available.

On the mission, Carter sat in the passenger seat, said "Thank you" to the pilot of the other jumper, threw a flash grenade, fired a gun after Zelenka pointed out an energy source, and opened a cell door. Did that require extensive knowledge of Ancient tech, Asgard tech? Did it require past experience from fighting Milky Way villains? No. Ronon, Zelenka and an experienced Atlantis team were more than capable of completing the mission.

Just because she can do something, doesn't mean it's the smart thing to do. Maybe she wanted to prove herself in her new command, maybe she didn't like staying back and waiting, maybe she doesn't trust anybody but herself to do things right. I don't think she was there because she was best qualified to go.

And don't expect TPTB to destroy Sam's character, but to enrich it. I expect her to go off-world in situations even less logical than this one who was in fact a obligation, because Sam is not that character to stay in her office when her friends or flag team are in need and she is the most qualified person to help. Weir would have done the same thing if she would have the expertise, in fact she did the same thing, in 'Lifeline' when she left the jumper.

And also don't forget that Lorne is not main cast and Sam is, no matter how much some of you would want, so i don't expect to see Lorne more than Sam. The question is, why do you?

I don't expect TPTB to destroy Carter's character. Letting her make intelligent decisions as a leader would be a good start to building her character. They are writing her in as leader of Atlantis, not leader of a gate team, so it's not unreasonable to expect her to act accordingly.

As much as I prefer Lorne to Carter, I don't expect him to get more screen time. For good or bad Carter is part of the main cast now. I'm hoping her presence doesn't cut into the parts that characters like Lorne and Zelenka play. That would be a big loss.

[elbo]

Sam is one of the top Earth scientists from the start of SG-1. This however didn't stop her from participating to every SG1 mission in the Goa'uld/Replicator/Ori arcs.

Same as Rodney even not military was participating in almost all SGA missions, including this one of infiltration in a Wraith weapon facility.

Sam along with the others SG1 members state very cleary that steping through the gate comes always with a risk that is acceptable. Sam is also a military commander now and she has a responsability about the personal under her command. If you don't understand this, i'm sorry, i'm out of this. Just to say that even if it was no obligation for her to lead this mission, she had the right to decide, being a CO, and in my opinion she made the right/logical call. If an unfortunate accident would have happened, now that there is a ZPM powering the both Atlantis and Earth gates a new base commander would have been appointed. Is not like they were cut off from Eath. End of story.

[FallenAngelII]

elbo, please read through the last couple of pages before posting anything else. You're repeating (by now) stale arguments which have been dwelled upon for pages upon pages. And we've already argued your points to death (on both sides).

[Cautious Explorer]

Sam is one of the top Earth scientists from the start of SG-1. This however didn't stop her from participating to every SG1 mission in the Goa'uld/Replicator/Ori arcs.

Same as Rodney even not military was participating in almost all SGA missions, including this one of infiltration in a Wraith weapon facility.

Sam along with the others SG1 members state very cleary that steping through the gate comes always with a risk that is acceptable. Sam is also a military commander now and she has a responsability about the personal under her command. If you don't understand this, i'm sorry, i'm out of this. Just to say that even if it was no obligation for her to lead this mission, she had the right to decide, being a CO, and in my opinion she made the right/logical call. If an unfortunate accident would have happened, now that there is a ZPM powering the both Atlantis and Earth gates a new base commander would have been appointed. Is not like they were cut off from Eath. End of story.

The question here isn't if it's logical for top scientists like Rodney or Carter to be on a gate team. No one is asking if Carter, as commander, has the authority to insert herself in an off-world mission. The question being asked is if it's logical for her to do so. I don't think so.

There was nothing about this mission that required her presence. There was nothing on this mission that couldn't have been done as well or better by someone else.

I understand very well that she has a responsiblity to the personnel under her command. That responsibility should include knowing when to bow out and let those with the knowldege and experience for the situation do the job. Delagating and making smart decisions is also part of command.

[elbo]

What exactly was it about this mission that required Carter's presence as opposed to a gate team already stationed in Atlantis with previous experience dealing with the Wraith, and working with Sheppard's team?

This was her first day in a new position, among people she hadn't worked with before, in an unfamiliar galaxy, fighting an enemy she had never met. Where exactly does her special expertise come in?

Someone capable of command should have the wisdom to step aside when there are more experienced people available.

On the mission, Carter sat in the passenger seat, said "Thank you" to the pilot of the other jumper, threw a flash grenade, fired a gun after Zelenka pointed out an energy source, and opened a cell door. Did that require extensive knowledge of Ancient tech, Asgard tech? Did it require past experience from fighting Milky Way villains? No. Ronon, Zelenka and an experienced Atlantis team were more than capable of completing the mission.

Just because she can do something, doesn't mean it's the smart thing to do. Maybe she wanted to prove herself in her new command, maybe she didn't like staying back and waiting, maybe she doesn't trust anybody but herself to do things right. I don't think she was there because she was best qualified to go.

What are you talking about? Sam participate to tens of rescuing/infiltration missions in SG1. If i count all the situations/mission of Atlantis teams, except the Sheppard's team (captured) i don't get not even 10% of what Sam did along with SG1. I even don't remember at least one succesfull mission rescuing and not only presented to us in SGA and made by another team than Shepp's.

And yes, the mission resulted to me much easier than expected. And if you like to judge everything about effects, then please also judge the fact that the mission was a complete success with no casualities, all the people rescued and retroactive speaking Sam made the right call.

I don't expect TPTB to destroy Carter's character. Letting her make intelligent decisions as a leader would be a good start to building her character. They are writing her in as leader of Atlantis, not leader of a gate team, so it's not unreasonable to expect her to act accordingly.

Unfortunately, you didn't saw a real leader in the previous 3 seasons. None of us saw. An appropiate leader for this PG situation Atlantis has only starting with S4. And in 'Reunion' Sam made a inteligent decision which ended rescuing the team.

The previous rescuing mission in CG ended with a 100 years old Sheppard and some 'abracadabra' reset button. Get the difference?

[Uber]

It's a very different thing to fight the Jaffa vs. fighting the Wraith. They do not use the same weapons, same technology or strategies. Thus, Sam was far from the most qualified person for the job. She's qualified to do a lot of things. But fighting the Wraith on her first day without ever encountering the Wraith before while Lorne and who knows who else are around? Hardly.

I don't agree. In this case for this rescue/recovery mission, Sam was perfect for the role as it's what she's done for years versus a variety of aliens and unknowns.

And she is still the leader of Atlantis. When accepting a high position like that, you have to accept that fact that you won't be going into the field. Leaders lead, field workers work in the fields.

To some extent yes...and for a civilian commander, certainly. Carter however is a battle seasoned officer who has the chops and the tenure to plan and execute the rescue.

There were not two jumpers that went into the science facility! One jumper was used as a decoy to make the Darts fly off on a wild goose chase!

Which was a pretty good strategy then since it worked.

Meanwhile, only Sam, Ronon, Radek and two Red-Shirts actually entered the facility. Five people, one of which had never seen a Wraith before and another one of which was unarmed. Yes, how competent they were compared to a team of Ronon, Cadman, Lorne and two Red-Shirts.

Small incursion teams are sometimes more effective than bringing in a large force...as is yet again proven here. And again...it doesn't matter who she's shooting or if she's seen one before. They take aim at her and she can kill them just as dead as the Goa'uld, Jaffa or soldiers of the Ori.

Calm, cool and collected people would've realized that it's not their place, as leaders, to jump into a hostile situation where they might die (and especially not to take point and be the first to go) when the city had just lost a beloved leader of 4 years!

And had it been some newbie without a decade of pulling off such missions, I might agree. But she does have the experience and the training to do what she did and she and her team got them out.

And I wasn't the one who originally claimed she needed to prove herself. The "Sam did the right thing"-side brought that ludicrous statement forth as an argument for why she did the right thing.

I don't agree with the assertion regardless of who suggested it.

She has accepted a position where it's not her job, responsibility or duty to go off-world when the situation is hostile and could result in casualties. Her job is to stay on Atlantis and lead the city.

LOL So you know the specifics of her position, do you? Unless there's some edict somewhere denying her the choice to go offworld when she feels it's necessary, all you're doing is making assumptions based on your own biases.

Yes, because that makes it all better. All habits die hard.

Actually, I said "old habits die hard"...meaning, it's what she's done for years and years so it's natural that her first instinct is to jump in and get her hands dirty. And while I don't think that's the most prudent choice for her to make all the time, I thought it was perfectly reasonable in this case.

Yes. But that doens't change the fact that in this case, she did wrong. What she'll do in the future, how fresh she is to the job, no matter what, what she did in this case was still wrong (IMO).

I'll continue to not agree with you. She's not some bureaucrat who's never held a weapon before who decides to go off and launch a mission to rescue her team. She's an officer who's been serving on the front lines for a decade who responded to the emergency and rescued her team.

Yes, let's ignore logic because the PTB are lazy.

I'm not entirely certain your definition of "logic" is the same as mine.

They could've just grabbed any random Canadian actor and stuck them fatigues, given then a P-90 and have them go instead of Sam. They could be the leader of SGA-12 for all I care. The leader does not go off-world unless, especially not into a hostile situation and escpially not taking point (being the first to go under fire) unless the situation requires for it to be so.

And in this case, Sam had an entire city full of qualified personnel better suited than her to go.

Again, you're mixing in real world issues with inverse issues. And I'm sorry, I just don't agree with you. The rescue further establishes Sam as being someone willing and able to jump into the action when she feels the need to do so and not just someone who will sit idly on the sidelines when she can make a difference.

Seeing her there as part of the rescue had a heck of a lot more resonance emotionally than seeing random red shirt number 2 leading the group.

[elbo]

The question here isn't if it's logical for top scientists like Rodney or Carter to be on a gate team. No one is asking if Carter, as commander, has the authority to insert herself in an off-world mission. The question being asked is if it's logical for her to do so. I don't think so.

There was nothing about this mission that required her presence. There was nothing on this mission that couldn't have been done as well or better by someone else.

I understand very well that she has a responsiblity to the personnel under her command. That responsibility should include knowing when to bow out and let those with the knowldege and experience for the situation do the job. Delagating and making smart decisions is also part of command.

Comme on, we are playing the same drum over and over again. Pro/Anti Sam. Do you sincerly have a problem with a scientist or scientist/military going in a mission where he COULD be shoted or stuned?

It depends on the nature of the mission. When making a support mission, infiltration, the skills of a scientists are even more requierd than anyone else. The type of this mission was rescuing, and in this domain Sam was the most qualified.

Of course that puting, let's say Rodney in front line is not very wise. He can be captured and he has no kind of training in resisting interogation and stuff. But you don't considerate that those people have free will and FRIENDS, are not some socks that we use them when and where we want. They have the right to decide for themself if they want to be part of a team or stationary in the city like Zelenka is or on Earth like many others.

[Cautious Explorer]

What are you talking about? Sam participate to tens of rescuing/infiltration missions in SG1. If i count all the situations/mission of Atlantis teams, except the Sheppard's team (captured) i don't get not even 10% of what Sam did along with SG1. I even don't remember at least one succesfull mission rescuing and not only presented to us in SGA and made by another team than Shepp's.

And yes, the mission resulted to me much easier than expected. And if you like to judge everything about effects, then please also judge the fact that the mission was a complete success with no casualities, all the people rescued and retroactive speaking Sam made the right call.

What am I talking about? Sam Carter in Atlantis. We are talking about the rescue mission in Reunion, correct? What Carter did in the Milky Way as part of a gate team is not the same as what Carter should be doing in a new galaxy as the commander of Atlantis.

Since SG-1 was the main focus of their show and Sheppard's team is the main focus of SGA, I don't doubt that you haven't seen a lot of activity from other teams. That doesn't mean there are no other gate teams, or that they just sit around Atlantis or the SGC all day with nothing to do.

The mission was a success, that's true. Carter didn't save the team single-handedly, nor did she bungle the mission. IMO the mission would have been just as successful if Carter had stayed on Atlantis and someone else had gone in her place. There was absolutely nothing about this mission that required the special expertise of Sam Carter, either military or scientific. Just because it wasn't a spectacular failure doesn't mean it was the best decision.

Unfortunately, you didn't saw a real leader in the previous 3 seasons. None of us saw. An appropiate leader for this PG situation Atlantis has only starting with S4. And in 'Reunion' Sam made a inteligent decision which ended rescuing the team.

The previous rescuing mission in CG ended with a 100 years old Sheppard and some 'abracadabra' reset button. Get the difference?

Are you suggesting that Common Ground would have had a different outcome had Sam Carter been at the helm? What do you think she would have done differently? Figured out the gate address where Rodney couldn't? Cut a deal with Kolya?

[elbo]

What am I talking about? Sam Carter in Atlantis. We are talking about the rescue mission in Reunion, correct? What Carter did in the Milky Way as part of a gate team is not the same as what Carter should be doing in a new galaxy as the commander of Atlantis.

Since SG-1 was the main focus of their show and Sheppard's team is the main focus of SGA, I don't doubt that you haven't seen a lot of activity from other teams. That doesn't mean there are no other gate teams, or that they just sit around Atlantis or the SGC all day with nothing to do.

The mission was a success, that's true. Carter didn't save the team single-handedly, nor did she bungle the mission. IMO the mission would have been just as successful if Carter had stayed on Atlantis and someone else had gone in her place. There was absolutely nothing about this mission that required the special expertise of Sam Carter, either military or scientific. Just because it wasn't a spectacular failure doesn't mean it was the best decision.

As you say Sam didn't go alone, was accompanied by 1,2 SGA teams. Is just that she was in charge of the mission. Like i said, i think that the situation required someone with a higher rank than major, to coordonate it, not speaking about field experience. Maby was missed, but the rest of Atlantis teams has quite few encouters with the Wraith, from which we trieid in fact to hide for the last 3 seasons. Is not like SGC/Goa'uld relation, is totally different.

And i repeat if Sheppard and his team would have been available, Sam would have not participate to the rescue. Only this team has a decent experience.

Are you suggesting that Common Ground would have had a different outcome had Sam Carter been at the helm? What do you think she would have done differently? Figured out the gate address where Rodney couldn't? Cut a deal with Kolya?

I can't say for sure of course, but i can speculate. Sam is not the character to need 9 hours to reach a simple decison, the only decision in that situation: leting Ladon Radim leave to question his prisoners. Waiting 9 hours to FINALY do the same thing, trust him and leting him go, resulted practicaly in Sheppard death without the reset button

You cannot keep a demnitary prisoner like a potential bargain chip or for torture (?) and on the other hand throw the clisee 'we don't negociate with terorists'. That's hypocrisy.