Originally posted by saberhagen83
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Is it logical for Carter to go off-world?
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Originally posted by FallenAngelII View PostAnd she is still the leader of Atlantis. When accepting a high position like that, you have to accept that fact that you won't be going into the field. Leaders lead, field workers work in the fields.
And in this case, Sam had an entire city full of qualified personnel better suited than her to go.
Well, at least half the city was qualified. They have to have more than a dozen military personnel, after all, they need to protect the scientists. I'd say at least a third of the folks there are military, so yes, there had to have been someone there. Realistically, what did Carter do that any other 'red shirt' could'nt have done? All she did was toss in a flashbang, but otherwise, anybody else could have done that particular job. The writers wanted her there, and well, that's why she was there. Integrate the character, have the viewers accept her on the show, etc. It's pretty simple. Not necessarily logical, but simple.
Oh, and can folks not post Doppelganger spoilers here? not everyone has seen it
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The commander of a military facility like Atlantis, can go in missions. There is no rule to prohibit this.
The important missions, like this one is imperative to be lead by the ranking officer or the officer with the biggest experience in the field or those sort of missions, and this is ... Samantha Carter.
Yes, this is another the reason why the command of Atlantis was given to Sam, a character who acumulated a huge combat/field experience that can be used in certain situatuations and provide more writing solutions.
If TPTB would have wanted a desk bureaucrat with superiority complexes, they would have kept Weir or bring another black suit or red blouse to dramatise every situation. If you are arguing every thing related to Sam, you in fact arguing the decision to bring Sam over to Atlantis. I think we pass that, there is no return, TPTB already made the call. We now can either whine or enjoy the show.
And don't expect TPTB to destroy Sam's character, but to enrich it. I expect her to go off-world in situations even less logical than this one who was in fact a obligation, because Sam is not that character to stay in her office when her friends or flag team are in need and she is the most qualified person to help. Weir would have done the same thing if she would have the expertise, in fact she did the same thing, in 'Lifeline' when she left the jumper.
And also don't forget that Lorne is not main cast and Sam is, no matter how much some of you would want, so i don't expect to see Lorne more than Sam. The question is, why do you?Last edited by elbo; 14 October 2007, 10:49 AM.
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Originally posted by prion View PostWHen people get promoted upwards, they don't go out in the field, or down to the trenches. They get to sit behind a desk and send other people off to the field.
If by 'promotion' you are reffering to commander of a base like SGC or Atlantis, is true that there is some desk work involved but there is no rule to prohibit the commander to participate in missions form time to time, is special circumstances, because in normal circumstances i don't remember Sam being part of any Atlantis 4 members team, so we can't speak actually about field work how you say, can't we?
Originally posted by prion View PostWell, at least half the city was qualified. They have to have more than a dozen military personnel, after all, they need to protect the scientists. I'd say at least a third of the folks there are military, so yes, there had to have been someone there. Realistically, what did Carter do that any other 'red shirt' could'nt have done? All she did was toss in a flashbang, but otherwise, anybody else could have done that particular job. The writers wanted her there, and well, that's why she was there. Integrate the character, have the viewers accept her on the show, etc. It's pretty simple. Not necessarily logical, but simple.
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Sam shouldn't have gone on the rescue mission! If captured then who was going to lead Atlantis - Chuck? Not to mention that we'd have lost Rodney, her and Zelenka - the top 3 lead scientists Earth has!
I can understand why she made the emotional decision to lead the rescue mission - she wanted to prove herself to Atlantis personnel (especially Ronon), but that doesn't mean I support her decision. Guess when your hubby is head of HWS you can get away with anything...
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Originally posted by elbo View PostThe commander of a military facility like Atlantis, can go in missions. There is no rule to prohibit this.
The important missions, like this one is imperative to be lead by the ranking officer or the officer with the biggest experience in the field or those sort of missions, and this is ... Samantha Carter.
This was her first day in a new position, among people she hadn't worked with before, in an unfamiliar galaxy, fighting an enemy she had never met. Where exactly does her special expertise come in?
Someone capable of command should have the wisdom to step aside when there are more experienced people available.
On the mission, Carter sat in the passenger seat, said "Thank you" to the pilot of the other jumper, threw a flash grenade, fired a gun after Zelenka pointed out an energy source, and opened a cell door. Did that require extensive knowledge of Ancient tech, Asgard tech? Did it require past experience from fighting Milky Way villains? No. Ronon, Zelenka and an experienced Atlantis team were more than capable of completing the mission.
Just because she can do something, doesn't mean it's the smart thing to do. Maybe she wanted to prove herself in her new command, maybe she didn't like staying back and waiting, maybe she doesn't trust anybody but herself to do things right. I don't think she was there because she was best qualified to go.
And don't expect TPTB to destroy Sam's character, but to enrich it. I expect her to go off-world in situations even less logical than this one who was in fact a obligation, because Sam is not that character to stay in her office when her friends or flag team are in need and she is the most qualified person to help. Weir would have done the same thing if she would have the expertise, in fact she did the same thing, in 'Lifeline' when she left the jumper.
And also don't forget that Lorne is not main cast and Sam is, no matter how much some of you would want, so i don't expect to see Lorne more than Sam. The question is, why do you?
As much as I prefer Lorne to Carter, I don't expect him to get more screen time. For good or bad Carter is part of the main cast now. I'm hoping her presence doesn't cut into the parts that characters like Lorne and Zelenka play. That would be a big loss.
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Sam is one of the top Earth scientists from the start of SG-1. This however didn't stop her from participating to every SG1 mission in the Goa'uld/Replicator/Ori arcs.
Same as Rodney even not military was participating in almost all SGA missions, including this one of infiltration in a Wraith weapon facility.
Sam along with the others SG1 members state very cleary that steping through the gate comes always with a risk that is acceptable. Sam is also a military commander now and she has a responsability about the personal under her command. If you don't understand this, i'm sorry, i'm out of this. Just to say that even if it was no obligation for her to lead this mission, she had the right to decide, being a CO, and in my opinion she made the right/logical call. If an unfortunate accident would have happened, now that there is a ZPM powering the both Atlantis and Earth gates a new base commander would have been appointed. Is not like they were cut off from Eath. End of story.
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Originally posted by elbo View PostSam is one of the top Earth scientists from the start of SG-1. This however didn't stop her from participating to every SG1 mission in the Goa'uld/Replicator/Ori arcs.
Same as Rodney even not military was participating in almost all SGA missions, including this one of infiltration in a Wraith weapon facility.
Sam along with the others SG1 members state very cleary that steping through the gate comes always with a risk that is acceptable. Sam is also a military commander now and she has a responsability about the personal under her command. If you don't understand this, i'm sorry, i'm out of this. Just to say that even if it was no obligation for her to lead this mission, she had the right to decide, being a CO, and in my opinion she made the right/logical call. If an unfortunate accident would have happened, now that there is a ZPM powering the both Atlantis and Earth gates a new base commander would have been appointed. Is not like they were cut off from Eath. End of story.
There was nothing about this mission that required her presence. There was nothing on this mission that couldn't have been done as well or better by someone else.
I understand very well that she has a responsiblity to the personnel under her command. That responsibility should include knowing when to bow out and let those with the knowldege and experience for the situation do the job. Delagating and making smart decisions is also part of command.
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Originally posted by Cautious Explorer View PostWhat exactly was it about this mission that required Carter's presence as opposed to a gate team already stationed in Atlantis with previous experience dealing with the Wraith, and working with Sheppard's team?
This was her first day in a new position, among people she hadn't worked with before, in an unfamiliar galaxy, fighting an enemy she had never met. Where exactly does her special expertise come in?
Someone capable of command should have the wisdom to step aside when there are more experienced people available.
On the mission, Carter sat in the passenger seat, said "Thank you" to the pilot of the other jumper, threw a flash grenade, fired a gun after Zelenka pointed out an energy source, and opened a cell door. Did that require extensive knowledge of Ancient tech, Asgard tech? Did it require past experience from fighting Milky Way villains? No. Ronon, Zelenka and an experienced Atlantis team were more than capable of completing the mission.
Just because she can do something, doesn't mean it's the smart thing to do. Maybe she wanted to prove herself in her new command, maybe she didn't like staying back and waiting, maybe she doesn't trust anybody but herself to do things right. I don't think she was there because she was best qualified to go.
And yes, the mission resulted to me much easier than expected. And if you like to judge everything about effects, then please also judge the fact that the mission was a complete success with no casualities, all the people rescued and retroactive speaking Sam made the right call.
Originally posted by Cautious Explorer View PostI don't expect TPTB to destroy Carter's character. Letting her make intelligent decisions as a leader would be a good start to building her character. They are writing her in as leader of Atlantis, not leader of a gate team, so it's not unreasonable to expect her to act accordingly.
The previous rescuing mission in CG ended with a 100 years old Sheppard and some 'abracadabra' reset button. Get the difference?
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Originally posted by FallenAngelII View PostIt's a very different thing to fight the Jaffa vs. fighting the Wraith. They do not use the same weapons, same technology or strategies. Thus, Sam was far from the most qualified person for the job. She's qualified to do a lot of things. But fighting the Wraith on her first day without ever encountering the Wraith before while Lorne and who knows who else are around? Hardly.Originally posted by FallenAngelII View PostAnd she is still the leader of Atlantis. When accepting a high position like that, you have to accept that fact that you won't be going into the field. Leaders lead, field workers work in the fields.Originally posted by FallenAngelII View PostThere were not two jumpers that went into the science facility! One jumper was used as a decoy to make the Darts fly off on a wild goose chase!Originally posted by FallenAngelII View PostMeanwhile, only Sam, Ronon, Radek and two Red-Shirts actually entered the facility. Five people, one of which had never seen a Wraith before and another one of which was unarmed. Yes, how competent they were compared to a team of Ronon, Cadman, Lorne and two Red-Shirts.Originally posted by FallenAngelII View PostCalm, cool and collected people would've realized that it's not their place, as leaders, to jump into a hostile situation where they might die (and especially not to take point and be the first to go) when the city had just lost a beloved leader of 4 years!Originally posted by FallenAngelII View PostAnd I wasn't the one who originally claimed she needed to prove herself. The "Sam did the right thing"-side brought that ludicrous statement forth as an argument for why she did the right thing.Originally posted by FallenAngelII View PostShe has accepted a position where it's not her job, responsibility or duty to go off-world when the situation is hostile and could result in casualties. Her job is to stay on Atlantis and lead the city.Originally posted by FallenAngelII View PostYes, because that makes it all better. All habits die hard.Originally posted by FallenAngelII View PostYes. But that doens't change the fact that in this case, she did wrong. What she'll do in the future, how fresh she is to the job, no matter what, what she did in this case was still wrong (IMO).Originally posted by FallenAngelII View PostYes, let's ignore logic because the PTB are lazy.Originally posted by FallenAngelII View PostThey could've just grabbed any random Canadian actor and stuck them fatigues, given then a P-90 and have them go instead of Sam. They could be the leader of SGA-12 for all I care. The leader does not go off-world unless, especially not into a hostile situation and escpially not taking point (being the first to go under fire) unless the situation requires for it to be so.
And in this case, Sam had an entire city full of qualified personnel better suited than her to go.
Seeing her there as part of the rescue had a heck of a lot more resonance emotionally than seeing random red shirt number 2 leading the group.
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Originally posted by Cautious Explorer View PostThe question here isn't if it's logical for top scientists like Rodney or Carter to be on a gate team. No one is asking if Carter, as commander, has the authority to insert herself in an off-world mission. The question being asked is if it's logical for her to do so. I don't think so.
There was nothing about this mission that required her presence. There was nothing on this mission that couldn't have been done as well or better by someone else.
I understand very well that she has a responsiblity to the personnel under her command. That responsibility should include knowing when to bow out and let those with the knowldege and experience for the situation do the job. Delagating and making smart decisions is also part of command.
It depends on the nature of the mission. When making a support mission, infiltration, the skills of a scientists are even more requierd than anyone else. The type of this mission was rescuing, and in this domain Sam was the most qualified.
Of course that puting, let's say Rodney in front line is not very wise. He can be captured and he has no kind of training in resisting interogation and stuff. But you don't considerate that those people have free will and FRIENDS, are not some socks that we use them when and where we want. They have the right to decide for themself if they want to be part of a team or stationary in the city like Zelenka is or on Earth like many others.
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Originally posted by elbo View PostWhat are you talking about? Sam participate to tens of rescuing/infiltration missions in SG1. If i count all the situations/mission of Atlantis teams, except the Sheppard's team (captured) i don't get not even 10% of what Sam did along with SG1. I even don't remember at least one succesfull mission rescuing and not only presented to us in SGA and made by another team than Shepp's.
And yes, the mission resulted to me much easier than expected. And if you like to judge everything about effects, then please also judge the fact that the mission was a complete success with no casualities, all the people rescued and retroactive speaking Sam made the right call.
Since SG-1 was the main focus of their show and Sheppard's team is the main focus of SGA, I don't doubt that you haven't seen a lot of activity from other teams. That doesn't mean there are no other gate teams, or that they just sit around Atlantis or the SGC all day with nothing to do.
The mission was a success, that's true. Carter didn't save the team single-handedly, nor did she bungle the mission. IMO the mission would have been just as successful if Carter had stayed on Atlantis and someone else had gone in her place. There was absolutely nothing about this mission that required the special expertise of Sam Carter, either military or scientific. Just because it wasn't a spectacular failure doesn't mean it was the best decision.
Unfortunately, you didn't saw a real leader in the previous 3 seasons. None of us saw. An appropiate leader for this PG situation Atlantis has only starting with S4. And in 'Reunion' Sam made a inteligent decision which ended rescuing the team.
The previous rescuing mission in CG ended with a 100 years old Sheppard and some 'abracadabra' reset button. Get the difference?
Are you suggesting that Common Ground would have had a different outcome had Sam Carter been at the helm? What do you think she would have done differently? Figured out the gate address where Rodney couldn't? Cut a deal with Kolya?
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Originally posted by Cautious Explorer View PostWhat am I talking about? Sam Carter in Atlantis. We are talking about the rescue mission in Reunion, correct? What Carter did in the Milky Way as part of a gate team is not the same as what Carter should be doing in a new galaxy as the commander of Atlantis.
Since SG-1 was the main focus of their show and Sheppard's team is the main focus of SGA, I don't doubt that you haven't seen a lot of activity from other teams. That doesn't mean there are no other gate teams, or that they just sit around Atlantis or the SGC all day with nothing to do.
The mission was a success, that's true. Carter didn't save the team single-handedly, nor did she bungle the mission. IMO the mission would have been just as successful if Carter had stayed on Atlantis and someone else had gone in her place. There was absolutely nothing about this mission that required the special expertise of Sam Carter, either military or scientific. Just because it wasn't a spectacular failure doesn't mean it was the best decision.
And i repeat if Sheppard and his team would have been available, Sam would have not participate to the rescue. Only this team has a decent experience.
Originally posted by Cautious Explorer View PostAre you suggesting that Common Ground would have had a different outcome had Sam Carter been at the helm? What do you think she would have done differently? Figured out the gate address where Rodney couldn't? Cut a deal with Kolya?
You cannot keep a demnitary prisoner like a potential bargain chip or for torture (?) and on the other hand throw the clisee 'we don't negociate with terorists'. That's hypocrisy.Last edited by elbo; 14 October 2007, 01:41 PM.
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