VR Future

[elbo]

but what does that have to do with this situation?

Yes but the environment was still there. An VR doesn't shut down when it's inhabitants are removed.

For that matter the VR from 'Aurora' was destroyed once with the ship and the life pods. It remains a mistery how Dr Lee was able to recreate both.

And to create a VR where people can connect to and interact is one thing, but to download a conscousness is something else. I don't think we can do that with everything that we aquire in SG-1/SGA.

....

Sorry, but our current knowlege of 'robots' do not include the AI concept, which suppose sencience. We don't have laws for that or for any rights not-human related. If you imagine that the laws will remain the same in case we discover other forms of sencient lifes and we interact with them you are kiddin' yourself.

Maybey so but she was still built from a replicator nanite. I'm sorry but your argument is flawed.

Rather she was a flawed replicator, lacking many of their atributes, like changing apparence or self-repair or the agressive directive. If you don't want to akwoledge the difference, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. We are made same from organic cells like the Wraith, but we don't have their regenrative abilities or food requiments. So, we are Wraith or the Wraith are humans?

Wait one damn minute. I am not racist I am military so I am more than qualified to know what a security risk is and she was one of them.

Good to know. And how many replicators did you have met? And please offer the criteries to define a security risk. And i'm also curious how you can quantify this risk.

[elbo]

And Mitchell82, apparently you missed my point about responsability for every Earth's citizens. It doesn't matter if what a citizen do is legal or not, if he produce damage to an alien civilization, the Earth instiutions are called to compensate or suffer the consequences for his actions. Remember what happen when Tollans/Asgard threaten to broke the relations with Earth and SGC for the actions of few rogue Earth's agents? Is not like Hammond and SGC had a direct foul or have been responsable directly for some unauthorizated actions, but were the ones suffering the consequences giving their representative mandate.

This is how it works and this is the responsability when the alien civilasation don't have its own means of investigation on Earth or the legal cover to bring personaly the individual into justice.

This incident was similar in the way it involved a sencient alien life and the rogue actions of an Earth's citizen.

[kymeric]

She was real enough to save Sheppard's and Ronon's lifes and to prevent a potential catastrophe on Earth and even the reveal of SGC program. Don't forget that Richard Pool had a buyer for the male replicator and we don't know who he/she is or that he/she will not try again. Maby is even someone from the Trust and i doubt that he/she want a replicator for planting flowers.

I really can remember that specific. But if you want to get TNG as refference, maby you should specify that they had an AI part of the Enterprise crew with a positive contribution to the mission, even if lt. Data was always a security risk giving his nature but so was anyone else. A human for example can be braiwashed, how saw even in SG1. I really preffer the 'Andromeda' refference.

If we want a 100% risk free era, we should seriosly consider droping any off-world campaign. We have the most powerfull ships in the known universe and we should focus in building more and a planetary satelite defence system. Case closed. Any minute off-world increases our chances to make new enemies and the reward is minimal now when we are fairly technological developed.

I also want to remaind you that there are people in SG universe not so short-minded like earthlings and i remember a specific episode from SG-1, when a race INVITE an AI to live with them. How do you comment this?

On a personal note, i have wished to see Ave on Atlantis even in Sheppard's team (no offence but Teyla is fading more and more), of course with her consent. I belive that she could have bring a huge contribution to the expedition, both in the city or in the field; we still have Wraith to defeat and imagine what beneficial could be someone who is imune to stun weapons when the team is ambushed and not only.

In this way we don't take the 'risk' of having her on Earth or becaming a Trust 'victim'. There are cases when the potential benefits overwhelm the potential risk and this is one of them, same as it was with Teal'c. From this reason and her positive behavior, i don't think that we can call her a security risk.

Plus, having an AI in the show, in Atlantis, as main or recurring character, could offer a new dimention to SGA, which SGA lacked and most sci-fi shows had. I deffinatively wanted to see that!

Google the TNG episode elementary dear data, they accidently create an AI that can destroy the ship while datas playing sherlock holmes. The name of the sequal episode escapes me right now, but faced with an AI threat they eventually trap in in a virtual reality.

Im just saying i Picard did it its gotta be ok ethically.... :-p

[Avenger]

For that matter the VR from 'Aurora' was destroyed once with the ship and the life pods. It remains a mistery how Dr Lee was able to recreate both.

He's a brilliant scientist who's had lots of time to work on this kind of thing.

And to create a VR where people can connect to and interact is one thing, but to download a conscousness is something else. I don't think we can do that with everything that we aquire in SG-1/SGA.

Why not? Her consciousness is just code. If it's code, there's no reason it couldn't be loaded into a computer generated environment.

And Mitchell82, apparently you missed my point about responsability for every Earth's citizens. It doesn't matter if what a citizen do is legal or not, if he produce damage to an alien civilization, the Earth instiutions are called to compensate or suffer the consequences for his actions.

Kind of like if a human made replicator were to be captured and reprogrammed to go on a rampage, killing people and causing lots of other damage. You can't have it both ways, bud.

....

Sorry, but our current knowlege of 'robots' do not include the AI concept, which suppose sencience. We don't have laws for that or for any rights not-human related. If you imagine that the laws will remain the same in case we discover other forms of sencient lifes and we interact with them you are kiddin' yourself.

Our "current" knowledge is irrelevant. The technology in the SG program is far more advanced that what we actually have in the real world.

Rather she was a flawed replicator, lacking many of their atributes, like changing apparence or self-repair or the agressive directive. If you don't want to akwoledge the difference, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. We are made same from organic cells like the Wraith, but we don't have their regenrative abilities or food requiments. So, we are Wraith or the Wraith are humans?

She didn't have those attributes because she as not programmed to have them. However, if the wrong person with the right technology were to gain access to her and start tampering with that programming, they could potentially reprogram her with those directives you mentioned. She would be damn near unstoppable, especially if she was reprogrammed to replicate.

Good to know. And how many replicators did you have met? And please offer the criteries to define a security risk. And i'm also curious how you can quantify this risk.

You haven't met any replicators either, so that argument fails. However, we have seen what they are capable of on the show. She's a security risk because it she were to be captured and reprogrammed by the wrong people, she would be nearly unstoppable. And, if she were able to replicate, well, that would pretty much be the end of Earth as we know it.

[kymeric]

Actually.... I have a thought. That pod tech was on the Aurora which was kablooied. But if one aurora had it i bet others do too. Could we have just found some some hint as to the fate of the Tria?

[garhkal]

I really like the idea of sending her to Harlan's planet. I wonder if she would've wanted to go? The only problem may have been that she could leave if she could discover any gate coordinates, and if she went all darkside, then we'd probably have to help clean up that mess. I dunno - guess they wanted to keep it in SGA canon and not dip their toes too far back into SG-1's storylines.

That could have worked, though i would hope they remove the gate first.

For that matter the VR from 'Aurora' was destroyed once with the ship and the life pods. It remains a mistery how Dr Lee was able to recreate both.

plus i seriously doubt we had the Orion long enough to get them off. Hay. maybe they came from the Tria..

[Jill_Ion]

OK, here's a problem with letting Ava run around free on Earth. She was based upon a dead woman. Even though allegedly her parents were dead (were they really or was Ava programmed with this "memory" to keep her from going home?), she obviously had other family and friends who cared about her.

Would you want a dead friend or relative "replaced" by a robot, AI, replicator, whatever?

I think the head scientist guy who created the replicator was very selfish in recreating his dead assistant - he missed her and probably more important, needed help, so he made a "copy." RepliAva could never have all of the memories or experiences the real Ava had.

What if you ran into this "replacement" and they didn't even know you, because RepliFriend wasn't programmed with "memories" of you?

I'm not anti-AI rights (unless it's SkyNet ), but in this case, I think they did the right thing with giving her at least some kind of life. Maybe they should've just turned her off?

[Jill_Ion]

That could have worked, though i would hope they remove the gate first.



plus i seriously doubt we had the Orion long enough to get them off. Hay. maybe they came from the Tria..

Yeah, they could've removed the Gate, if Harlan would allow it.

[Mitchell82]

For that matter the VR from 'Aurora' was destroyed once with the ship and the life pods. It remains a mistery how Dr Lee was able to recreate both.

And to create a VR where people can connect to and interact is one thing, but to download a conscousness is something else. I don't think we can do that with everything that we aquire in SG-1/SGA.

I admit how we got the tech is confusing. That is a mystery. However she was a program so not to hard to download a program.

....

Sorry, but our current knowlege of 'robots' do not include the AI concept, which suppose sencience. We don't have laws for that or for any rights not-human related. If you imagine that the laws will remain the same in case we discover other forms of sencient lifes and we interact with them you are kiddin' yourself.

Um you do realize there is a difference with the real world and the world of SGA right? In SGA and even real life our government would not consider her a lifeform. In real life she would have been destroyed.

Rather she was a flawed replicator, lacking many of their atributes, like changing apparence or self-repair or the agressive directive. If you don't want to akwoledge the difference, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. We are made same from organic cells like the Wraith, but we don't have their regenrative abilities or food requiments. So, we are Wraith or the Wraith are humans?

There is a difference however the fact remains she was a replicator which means a threat did exist no matter how remote it was too risky.

Good to know. And how many replicators did you have met? And please offer the criteries to define a security risk. And i'm also curious how you can quantify this risk.

This is fiction not real life!

[Mitchell82]

And Mitchell82, apparently you missed my point about responsability for every Earth's citizens. It doesn't matter if what a citizen do is legal or not, if he produce damage to an alien civilization, the Earth instiutions are called to compensate or suffer the consequences for his actions. Remember what happen when Tollans/Asgard threaten to broke the relations with Earth and SGC for the actions of few rogue Earth's agents? Is not like Hammond and SGC had a direct foul or have been responsable directly for some unauthorizated actions, but were the ones suffering the consequences giving their representative mandate.

This is how it works and this is the responsability when the alien civilasation don't have its own means of investigation on Earth or the legal cover to bring personaly the individual into justice.

This incident was similar in the way it involved a sencient alien life and the rogue actions of an Earth's citizen.

No it's not. Those situations involved actual organic civilizations and not a risky relationship. Those examples don't compare.

[Esquin]

2 points taht have already been brought up.

Todd and Teal'c. Both where far bigger security threats then Ava ever was.

Todd breaks his bindings and sudden;y we have a creature that is amazingly cunning and can, with the right amount of skill, be almost unkillable.

Teal'c was even worse, at any moment his larva could of jumped into a host. We saw it happen in the pilot to Kawalski. And yet they let him roam free like that for years.

Yes Ava was dangerous but she couldn't replicate, she couldn't alter her own base-code to allow herself to replicate, and when it comes right down to it, we could kill her if we had too.

Now lets put aside that what they did to her was inhumane. It was a downright waste. She could of been a valuable asset to the SGC. Even if you don't keep her anywhere near the SGC itself. They took one of the greatest achievments the Stargate program has ever produced (A weapon and computer that proved it was loyal to humanity and had morals.) And scrapped it. It was down right dumb.

[Jill_Ion]

I respectfully disagree, Esquin, for the following reasons.

Her treatment was not inhumane. She's not in a deep dark cell, being beaten. She's "living" in a VR.

Waste? She's in a VR. She still exists. They can pop in there any time they want, and possibly they can take her "consciousness" out and put it in another AI, if that is what they want to do. I would agree with you if they had destroyed her programming, but they didn't.

She wasn't a product of the SG program. They didn't program her and had no idea what surprises may have lain hidden in her coding.

Teal'c didn't get his own apartment until S8, about 1.5 yrs after he started on tritonin. The SGC medical team, as well as Teal'c, kept track of his symbiote's growth progress. Most, if not all, of his travels off-base were with other SGC personnel (not counting the play in Family Ties). Plus, Teal'c proved himself to be an ally of the Tau'ri over and over and over and over and...well, you get the idea.

Todd never left the SGC, was always in shackles when being transported, and was always under heavy guard and behind locked doors.

[Avenger]

Todd and Teal'c. Both where far bigger security threats then Ava ever was.

Todd breaks his bindings and sudden;y we have a creature that is amazingly cunning and can, with the right amount of skill, be almost unkillable.

Teal'c was even worse, at any moment his larva could of jumped into a host. We saw it happen in the pilot to Kawalski. And yet they let him roam free like that for years.

Teal'C didn't leave the SGC for years.

And with Todd, the enemy of my enemy is my friend applied in that situation and that changed the "rules". Furthermore, even if he did manage to break loose, they could easily track him and eliminate him on Atlantis if needed.

Eva, while not a threat as she was, could potentially have been reprogrammed to replicate or to become violent. She would have cause far more damage if this were to be the case that Teal'C or Todd ever could have.

[elbo]

Few things about Todd, first his case can hardly compare with Ave. He cannot be trusted even for a moment and he always has a hidden agenda; he has plans to create his own army and is well connected in the Wraith colectivity, which make many ressources available to him; he was ready to sacrifice Sheppard and the team to save his life without blinking; he has current knowledge of Atlantis and SGC, there is no way of knowing what informations could have pick up in the time spend there; we cannot speak of honor or keeping his word in his case, because everything he did to help us was first benefiting him or the Wraith; and when we reach the bottom of things, he will be always be an enemy for us and there is no way of taking off his feeding features. The existence of a technological being for comparison is not conditionate of a human death. Everything they did to provoke humans deaths was a result of conscious decision and with Ave was not the case.

And we did more than that with Todd, we sacrifice a human to him even if a scenario was pull out to make confusion, either we sacrifice Henry Wallace or he give himself wilingly, yes right! All this for some information. Well Ave could offered much more to us and she didn't require any type of food.

I said this before, but i belive that the best solution is having her on Atlantis, where is far from Earth or the Trust or Goa'uld and she can be a huge asset overwhelming any of the potential and minimal risks left. And is not like we cannot program a off-switch in her code and deactivate her in case problems appear.

I read a lot of funny comments about her becoming invincible. No one can beat the phisics and no one is invincible, at least not mater maby energy. If somenting, she is even more vulnerable to outside threats than a human, as also have been pointed out and don't think only to how many holes can we put in someone's body with the projectile weapons.

And for those fearing a reprogramming, maby you should fear the knowledge itself, because people having it will create their own replicators and program and train them as they like not hyjack a model build for social interaction, simulation of feelings and empathy.

[Avenger]

I said this before, but i belive that the best solution is having her on Atlantis, where is far from Earth or the Trust or Goa'uld and she can be a huge asset overwhelming any of the potential and minimal risks left. And is not like we cannot program a off-switch in her code and deactivate her in case problems appear.

What if the remaining replicators discover that there is a replicator on Atlantis and decide to reprogram her remotely to destroy the city? Yes, it could happen. We've seen replicators reprogrammed remotely before.

I read a lot of funny comments about her becoming invincible. No one can beat the phisics and no one is invincible, at least not mater maby energy. If somenting, she is even more vulnerable to outside threats than a human, as also have been pointed out and don't think only to how many holes can we put in someone's body with the projectile weapons.

As is, she could be stopped, however, she was built to be ARG resistant. That's an immediate red flag. If she were reprogrammed so that she was capable of phasing, bullets would pass right through her. While someone would eventually figure out a way to stop her, she'd be capable of doing a lot of damage first.

And for those fearing a reprogramming, maby you should fear the knowledge itself, because people having it will create their own replicators and program and train them as they like not hyjack a model build for social interaction, simulation of feelings and empathy.

Replicators are capable of being reprogrammed remotely. They don't need to be plugged into anything. If the wrong person with the right skills were to find out about her and rewrite her programming, she could do a lot of bad things.

And just because I happen to think that the potential for her being reprogrammed is a threat doesn't mean I'm dismissing the knowledge is dangerous as well. Of course it's dangerous.