How far is too far? Sheppard's Actions in MC.

[PG15]

Sharon was the one who bled out and died because the nanites stopped working.

[IcyNeko]

As there was no malicious intent in regards to Wallace and his daughter, the most he could have been charged with when she died would be manslaughter.

Nope.

Most likely, it would be more of a case of accidental death, or maltreatment. In normal cases, the family of the victim would have the option to sue for malpractice if treatment led to death, and the hospital would be in hot water.

Charging someone with manslaughter in this case would be like taking someone who was mortally injured to the hospital for treatment and getting into a wreck on the way and being charged with murder. Uhh no, she was dying to begin with. We did the best we could. We took a few risks. There's no law against that, and as her parent, he could easily waive any option to sue. Because he'd be suing himself.

As for Sheppard... that was too much.

The antagonist was going to go to jail for kidnapping. THAT IS ILLEGAL. Even though Sheppard only said words and such (which in and of themselves are not condemning), Sheppard did fail to protect a citizen of Earth from a hostile alien. That could be considered dereliction of duty and negligence. At most, he would be charged with negligence with criminal intent.

At the very least, it made our heroes soiled, and I really don't like that. It's really out of character.

[PG15]

John's actions saved Jeannie. Does that count as "[protecting] a citizen of Earth"?

Face it, somebody had to die. That's a fact.

[Lorr]

More points probably already brought up, but, what the heck...

Rodney and Todd were taken away from Atlantis for possibly days. Even if it was just hours, those were hours during which the shutdown program may have been finished. Todd would have been either released or killed. The need to feed him may not have arisen if Jeannie had not been kidnapped.

I think there would have been a very good chance that Wallace would have been charged with

- espionage (he purposefully researched the Stargate project prior to having any knowledge of Jeannie or McKay or Atlantis),
-capital murder (Jeannie - he had those nanites ready to go),
-two counts of kidnapping (Jeannie and Rodney), thereby ensuring it would be murder with special circumstances,
-conspiracy for all of the above,
-plus a host of other related crimes.

Since this was all done concerning a top secret government project, the charges, trial and everything would probably been done on a very hush-hush basis, if there was a trial at all. There would have been a very good chance that Wallace would have met with a "tragic accident" sometime shortly after Jeannie died. It probably would have happened in his holding cell and would have involved an overlooked belt or shoelaces or some such thing. Such a waste of a perfectly good meal.

Jeannie had a finite amount of time. Rodney stressed it may have been even less than the ten hours necessary to repair her broken legs. How long would it take to chose a death row inmate, get the state or federal government to sign him/her over and transport him/her to the SGC? I think more than ten hours. And, then, I doubt such inmate would walk willingly in to be fed upon. That would mean people holding him/her down or sedation. The whole process would have involved more than a few people.

What's at stake? One person, Jeannie? For sure. A whole galaxy full of people, or even a single planet that might be saved? Who to chose? The person that committed the crimes above (and we witnessed) and probably would not live out the week anyway or an innocent woman dragged from her bed in the middle of the night and injected with life threatening nanites, plus possibly tens to hundreds of thousands of other people?

Hmmm. Dang, that's a hard decision to make.

Spoiler:

Besides, it was in the script.

[bluealien]

More points probably already brought up, but, what the heck...

Rodney and Todd were taken away from Atlantis for possibly days. Even if it was just hours, those were hours during which the shutdown program may have been finished. Todd would have been either released or killed. The need to feed him may not have arisen if Jeannie had not been kidnapped.

I think there would have been a very good chance that Wallace would have been charged with

- espionage (he purposefully researched the Stargate project prior to having any knowledge of Jeannie or McKay or Atlantis),
-capital murder (Jeannie - he had those nanites ready to go),
-two counts of kidnapping (Jeannie and Rodney), thereby ensuring it would be murder with special circumstances,
-conspiracy for all of the above,
-plus a host of other related crimes.

Since this was all done concerning a top secret government project, the charges, trial and everything would probably been done on a very hush-hush basis, if there was a trial at all. There would have been a very good chance that Wallace would have met with a "tragic accident" sometime shortly after Jeannie died. It probably would have happened in his holding cell and would have involved an overlooked belt or shoelaces or some such thing. Such a waste of a perfectly good meal.

Jeannie had a finite amount of time. Rodney stressed it may have been even less than the ten hours necessary to repair her broken legs. How long would it take to chose a death row inmate, get the state or federal government to sign him/her over and transport him/her to the SGC? I think more than ten hours. And, then, I doubt such inmate would walk willingly in to be fed upon. That would mean people holding him/her down or sedation. The whole process would have involved more than a few people.

What's at stake? One person, Jeannie? For sure. A whole galaxy full of people, or even a single planet that might be saved? Who to chose? The person that committed the crimes above (and we witnessed) and probably would not live out the week anyway or an innocent woman dragged from her bed in the middle of the night and injected with life threatening nanites, plus possibly tens to hundreds of thousands of other people?

Hmmm. Dang, that's a hard decision to make.

Spoiler:

Besides, it was in the script.

At the time Wallace died there was no murder. Jeanie was not dead. The charge would have been attempted murder or even manslaughter but whatever the crimes that Wallace committed it still does not change the fact the Sheppard didn't have the right to take the law into his own hands and decide what punishment Wallace deserved. I find it quite disturbing that many seem to think that is how things would play out in real life. Wallace was no hardened criminal and hadnt even committed any murders at the time of his death. Yet the suggestions that he deseved his fate or would have accidentely died while in custody seem to paint the military system in a very bad light. Worse criminals than Wallace seem to have made their way to trial for far worse crimes.

Sheppard went into the room with the intent of persuading Wallace to sacrifice himself. His intent was malicious so whatever his reason behind it was it doesn't change the fact that he willfully intended Wallace to die, so he contributed to an actual death while no one died by Wallace's hand.

There was only one life at stake and that was Rodney's. Sheppard acted soley to save Rodney. A whole galaxy of people were at risk because of what Rodney unleashed and yet weeks had gone by without any real attempt at getting the Wraith to help him, so how many more worlds were distroyed during this time and this had nothing to do with Wallace. Why did no one consider that the Wraith would eventually collapse from lack of feeding before now... what about all those lives at stake. But yet eventhough millions of lives were at stake back in the Pegasus Galaxy both Rodney and Sheppard decided to leave that behind and concentrate on saving one life.

[Linzi]

At the time Wallace died there was no murder. Jeanie was not dead. The charge would have been attempted murder or even manslaughter but whatever the crimes that Wallace committed it still does not change the fact the Sheppard didn't have the right to take the law into his own hands and decide what punishment Wallace deserved. I find it quite disturbing that many seem to think that is how things would play out in real life. Wallace was no hardened criminal and hadnt even committed any murders at the time of his death. Yet the suggestions that he deseved his fate or would have accidentely died while in custody seem to paint the military system in a very bad light. Worse criminals than Wallace seem to have made their way to trial for far worse crimes.

Sheppard went into the room with the intent of persuading Wallace to sacrifice himself. His intent was malicious so whatever his reason behind it was it doesn't change the fact that he willfully intended Wallace to die, so he contributed to an actual death while no one died by Wallace's hand.

There was only one life at stake and that was Rodney's. Sheppard acted soley to save Rodney. A whole galaxy of people were at risk because of what Rodney unleashed and yet weeks had gone by without any real attempt at getting the Wraith to help him, so how many more worlds were distroyed during this time and this had nothing to do with Wallace. Why did no one consider that the Wraith would eventually collapse from lack of feeding before now... what about all those lives at stake. But yet eventhough millions of lives were at stake back in the Pegasus Galaxy both Rodney and Sheppard decided to leave that behind and concentrate on saving one life.

Blue, I'd have to disagree that the only life at stake was Rodney's. Jeannie would have died, that was made clear as soon as the nanites were injected by Wallace. His exact words were that they needed to fix the problem, or 'They both die', talking about Sharon and Jeannie.

As the problem couldn't be fixed, Rodney said he wouldn't have time to fix the code, and that's if he even could do it, it would take him at least 2 weeks, Jeannie had, MAYBE 10 hours before the nanites moved to her brain to 'cure' her epilepsy, then Jeannie's brain would have shut down, the nanites would have run out of steam, as they did in Sharon, and Jeannie would have died of a massive brain haemorrhage. That much was VERY clear. Jeannie was dying. That's why Rodney wanted to sacrifice himself to the wraith; so that Jeannie could be saved. I'm a little surprised you didn't realise that from the script and watching the show? Why would Rodney volunteer to do that if Jeannie's death wasn't imminent? Even then, he had no idea if the wraith could succeed in shutting down the nanites, or that he could do it in time to save Jeannie, so his sacrifice could well have been in vain anyway.

So, Rodney's wasn't the only life at stake. Jeannie was in a medically induced coma, with a ticking time bomb inside her.

All of that situation came to be because of one man's actions - Wallace's.

Now, as I said previously, I'm not sure what is morally right or wrong here. Some say it was ok, because it's justice of sorts. Some say it's wrong to suggest to someone who is suffering from guilt and grief that they atone for their crimes, and, yes, the bottom line is that Wallace was a criminal.

There is no way anyone should think it's ok to knowingly inject an innocent woman with something that WILL kill her. That can't be seen as morally right in anyone's eyes. It is against the law, plain and simple. Killing another innocent person to get someone to try and save your child, when it's not even perhaps possible is wrong under any circumstances.

What Sheppard did is not as clear cut. He didn't make Wallace do anything, and while, yes, we can imagine what went on after the scene with Wallace and Sheppard ended, we, the viewers, can only surmise and give our opinions on that.

I'd disagree that Sheppard's intent was malicious. He wasn't behaving with malice at all. His intention was to lay out the situation for Wallace and hope he did what Sheppard considered to be the 'right' thing. To give up his life to save a person Wallace had deliberately endangered. That's not malicious that I can see. It's calculating, perhaps, and it's a morally grey area assisting with suicide. Because, at the end of the day, that's what Sheppard did. He helped a man sacrifice himself, and that's the only thing he could be charged with, that I can see. Many people would say that's acceptable, many wouldn't. But malevolence was never Sheppard's intention here.

There is no evidence Sheppard made Wallace do anything. In fact, from the look on Wallace's face when Sheppard explained the situation, I took it to mean Wallace had already decided what to do. Thus he willingly gave his life to save Jeannie.

But, again, we're going around in circles again. You think one thing, I think another.

At the end of the day, I can't agree Sheppard was malicious or murdered someone. I do think Wallace actually was guilty of those things. Wallace calculatingly hurt someone to motivate others to try and cure a daughter whose life he himself had put in even greater danger. He hurt someone to try and rectify something that was his doing in the first place.

Sheppard's actions are in a morally grey area, I think. Assisted suicide is a very diffcult area to not feel emotive about. But, that's as far as it goes, I think. Wallace knew what he was doing. He wasn't grief stricken and a wreck. He knew the score. And, yes, if Sheppard hadn't told him about the wraith etc...then, no, Wallace obviously couldn't have given his life.

At the time of his death, Wallace was a hardened criminal. Jeannie was dying, and let's not forget, even now, she has inert nanites in her blood as a lasting reminder of what Wallace did, he'd stolen secrets from the US military, and had kidnapped two people as well as injuring another, Agent Barrett. All of those crimes are VERY serious in US law.

But, I am with Lorr here. It's pretty naive to think Wallace would ever have made it to trial. He'd have committed suicide in prison, because he accidentally got hold of shoe laces etc...

[Salas1]

Sharon was the one who bled out and died because the nanites stopped working.

McKAY: Sharon died half an hour ago.

SHEPPARD: I don't understand. What happened? I thought the nanites were ...

McKAY: This time it wasn't a problem with the programming. It was a manufacturing defect. In layman's terms, the nanites ran out of steam while they were repairing her arteries. She bled out internally. There was nothing we could do. (He stares at John in anguish.) I can't lose my sister, John. How am I gonna explain it to her husband, to her kid?

You're right. I misunderstood it at the time. But that just means hes murdered his daughter. Again, like I said, he knew it wouldn't work, and he was deliberately putting her life in further danger. Murder by logical terms, not necessarily court terms.

[scholar]

You're right. I misunderstood it at the time. But that just means hes murdered his daughter. Again, like I said, he knew it wouldn't work, and he was deliberately putting her life in further danger. Murder by logical terms, not necessarily court terms.

At the time Wallace injected his daughter with nanites, he didn't know they wouldn't work. He only discovered the difficulty with their programming after he had already injected her. I can't see him getting more then manslaughter in regards to his daughter.

In regards to Jeannie, it would be a different case. By that time, he had already discovered the problem with the nanites. He injects her knowing that NO CURE presently exists. He does it because Rodney ticked him off and was not willing to help. Attempted murder at the least, murder one if she dies.

[Jackie]

it would be voluntary manslaughter if Jeannie died. The injection of the nanies was not planned before he injected her. It was done out of passion. That's voluntary manslaughter--not murder in the first. If wallace walked into that room with the injection in hand and just injected her for sake of killing her...then it's murder one.

[blue-skyz]

it would be voluntary manslaughter if Jeannie died. The injection of the nanies was not planned before he injected her. It was done out of passion. That's voluntary manslaughter--not murder in the first. If wallace walked into that room with the injection in hand and just injected her for sake of killing her...then it's murder one.

He injected her during commission of a felony: kidnapping. If she died, it’s first degree, capital or felony murder. If she didn’t die it’s attempted murder with special or aggravated circumstances or what ever it’s called.

[Silverwings]

Face it, somebody had to die. That's a fact.

Are you sure about that? I thought Todd could just snack for a bit and then finish the program. Maybe I'm thinking of that wrong, though. *shrug*

Still, as has been noted, they have had time with Todd before now, and it's only now they notice he's hungry? It's all too contrived. I dislike shoddy writing as much as I dislike making things "dark" merely for darkness' sake.

[LoneStar1836]

it would be voluntary manslaughter if Jeannie died. The injection of the nanies was not planned before he injected her. It was done out of passion. That's voluntary manslaughter--not murder in the first. If wallace walked into that room with the injection in hand and just injected her for sake of killing her...then it's murder one.

I'm kind of on the fence as to whether it was first degree murder or voluntary manslaughter.

Especially considering what he said after he injected McKay's sister. "Fix this, or they both die."

I think premeditation could be argued for. Wallace just happened to have a batch of nanites ready to inject in the same room that he was talking to McKay and his sister? A little more than coincidence, imo. Just have to take his sanity into account.

[Linzi]

I'm kind of on the fence as to whether it was first degree murder or voluntary manslaughter.

Especially considering what he said after he injected McKay's sister. "Fix this, or they both die."

I think premeditation could be argued for. Wallace just happened to have a batch of nanites ready to inject in the same room that he was talking to McKay and his sister? A little more than coincidence, imo. Just have to take his sanity into account.

Agreed. It was definitely premeditated. When McKay and Jeannie wouldn't co-operate, he looked away at the case, walked towards it, opened it and got out the prepared syringe. No way was this done in a moment of passion. It was planned as a back up if they wouldn't go along with him. If it was done in a moment of passion, he wouldn't have had it there, all loaded up and ready to go. He didn't lose his temper, he was calm and rational. That's premeditated and attempted murder. If Jeannie had died, it would have been murder, just the same as if he'd put a gun to her head and pulled the trigger to try and get Rodney's cooperation.

As for Wallace's sanity? Well, he planned a daring kidnap, hacked into computers, or paid someone else to, stole top secret government secrets...hmmm, doesn't sound too insane to me.

[expendable_crewman]

Agreed. It was definitely premeditated. When McKay and Jeannie wouldn't co-operate, he looked away at the case, walked towards it, opened it and got out the prepared syringe. No way was this done in a moment of passion. It was planned as a back up if they wouldn't go along with him. If it was done in a moment of passion, he wouldn't have had it there, all loaded up and ready to go. He didn't lose his temper, he was calm and rational. That's premeditated and attempted murder. If Jeannie had died, it would have been murder, just the same as if he'd put a gun to her head and pulled the trigger to try and get Rodney's cooperation.

As for Wallace's sanity? Well, he planned a daring kidnap, hacked into computers, or paid someone else to, stole top secret government secrets...hmmm, doesn't sound too insane to me.

Not only does it not sound insane, don't forget that Wallace later says to Rodney and Jeannie that he knew he was going to go to prison. So add "ability to appreciate the consequences of his actions" to the list.

Which kind of, sort of plays into the ep's ending, IMO.

[scififreak23]

wow, you people are really naieve. What do you think happens in covert operations? When soliders are sent in to rescue people you think the kidnappers make it out to a fair trial? Only if the soldiers are orderd to keep them alive.

If you think what sheppard did was wrong you should watch the unit. The soldiers on that show have does some nasty stuff that makes what sheppard did penuts. The thing is, it's a realistic show. That stuff happens in real life and aside from the fact that a wraith was involved in a death more than likey this situation has already happend to many soldiers and they've been forced to make that kind of a decision an did what they had to do. I don't consider them murderers.

Soldiers are warriors- covert op soliders are a whole new kind of bred warriors.they live by a diffrent code. Your teammates are more that just your family, they develope incredible bonds with each other because of how much their lives depend on each other. If someone messes with that family,that bond, they die or get a serious beating.End of story.It's the way that it works. Sheppard did what he had to do to protect his team. He may not have liked it but he did it anyway.Again, that's the way that it works for them.

For me, what sheppard did wasn't murder.Wasn't justified either, but definately not murder.I have no problem with what he did.If i was in sheppard's position and my best friend was going to sacrifice himself to save his sister and the sob that kidnapped her and put her life in danger was going to walk and refused to help, i would have forced him to the wraith.