How far is too far? Sheppard's Actions in MC.

[blue-skyz]

While I might be wrong on the chain-of-command issue, Rodney did in no way go to John to ask for permission. At least it's not indicated that he did. He might have, but it's never said that he did.
He went to John to talk to him. They're friends. They do that. If Rodney were to do it, he'd want to say goodbye first, not just throw himself at the Wraith without a single word to John (unless he knew beforehand John would do everything in his power to stop him).

I hope this gets this question out of the way.

McKAY: I can't lose my sister, John. How am I gonna explain it to her husband, to her kid?
SHEPPARD: That Wraith'll kill you.
McKAY: It's my choice to make.
SHEPPARD: No, it's not. You're an invaluable member of my team and you report directly to me.
McKAY: Really? You wanna talk about chain of command right now?
SHEPPARD: You are not doing this.
McKAY: She's here because of me. I can't fix the problem, but I can help the guy who can. Look, this was not an easy decision to make.
SHEPPARD (looking away): I can't.
McKAY (near tears): Please.
(John looks at him and the pleading desperation in his eyes.)
SHEPPARD (quietly): I'm sorry.

[Silverwings]

Which are two of the things that I think stinks about this episode. The set-up and outcome were forced and the details conveniently shoddy in order for the writers to get this desired outcome, imo.

Agreed. Even if I thought that reaching for a "darker" show was a good thing to do (which I most vehemently do not), this was a dumb and incompetent way to do so.

So not only do I think the premise and supposed goal were ill-advised, I think the execution (double meaning intended) was as well.

...and what is this "loose" I keep reading? What happened to the word "lose"?

[MIZA]

I hope this gets this question out of the way.

McKAY: I can't lose my sister, John. How am I gonna explain it to her husband, to her kid?
SHEPPARD: That Wraith'll kill you.
McKAY: It's my choice to make.
SHEPPARD: No, it's not. You're an invaluable member of my team and you report directly to me.
McKAY: Really? You wanna talk about chain of command right now?
SHEPPARD: You are not doing this.
McKAY: She's here because of me. I can't fix the problem, but I can help the guy who can. Look, this was not an easy decision to make.
SHEPPARD (looking away): I can't.
McKAY (near tears): Please.
(John looks at him and the pleading desperation in his eyes.)
SHEPPARD (quietly): I'm sorry.

Wow that was really great scene, but the show still needed work though

[Starrtom]

To my eyes Shepard has always been a questionable character. He is hard core military, and most things the military does are questionable at best. I think Millers Crossing is a break through episode for Atlantis in the fact that it demonstrated a very powerful and dark situation with no easy solutions. I find that facinating, for me personally it's what I have been looking for in Atlantis for a long time. Although there are weaknesses in the writing the general idea and the conflict created is a very powerful statement.

Some appear to have taken this issue personally (how can the writers do that to Shepard?) because either they are Shepard Fans or find the idea distasteful. Shep is no angel and if anyone is going to make such a decision I think Shep is more likely then anyone else. I also believe if Jack was in the same situation I think he would have done it. If you see the episode called the other side where he purposely had the gate iris shut knowing it would kill the leader (can't rememeber the name of the planet) following them demostates that Jack is also prepared to do difficult and morally questionable things.

Is Shep guilty? Maybe
Is shep not guilty? maybe
Was it a neccessary action? Maybe
Was Shep right in what he did? Maybe
Was Shep wrong in what he did? Maybe

It is an interesting and powerful delema, and I look forward to more of them on Atlantis.

[Jill_Ion]

In the fictional universe, you can exercise the brain cells, IMO. You can turn the thing upside down, sideways, and just tear it apart.

In RL, I know my brain would shut down if I thought my CO or coworker had just fed a guy to a Wraith.

Wait a minute-- what's a Wraith?

Yeah, I wouldn't be sleeping very well if something like that happened in my workplace. And I wouldn't turn my back on anyone!

Wraith? Who said anything about a life-sucking Wraith? Nothing to see here! *whistles while looking slyly around*

Spoilers to reply to your spoiler:

Spoiler:

Sheppard what? Hush now, we'll have none of that, lol. I know you weren't responding to me here, but personally I don't get character hate. I've hated TV characters all right-- but it leads pretty quickly to channel-changing. I may go nuts when TV characters do certain (usually stupid) things (that shall not be mentioned) but I won't grind out a stone for them. Life's too short.

Yeah, what you said!

[garhkal]

Anyone considered this for an explanation as to the falsifying:

The SGC brass in on it, yes, but no one else in the military was. Therefore, in order to convince the IOA and the Pentagon that nothing wrong happened that day, they had to falsify the official report, or the entire SGC would face reprecussions.

In which case his crimes are compounded by following an unlawful order and they are also on the hook for giving that order.

Psychologists and psychiatrists across the worled agree: People go into states where they're not of sound mind when in deep grief. You do not ask people to, for example, sign contracts if they had just lost their daughter an hour before. It's simple psychology.

While true, i have seen many an incident at hospitals where nurses use that 'vunerable' time to get people to give blood as they are less likely to refuse.

[blue-skyz]

I rewatched Miller’s Crossing. Good episode. Great ending.

Continuing my quest to implicate the SGC ….

There is a viewing window into the lab where the Wraith is working. In the scene where the Wraith collapses, the window is behind him. There are two guards in the room behind the window. When the Wraith collapses, one of the guards picks up a phone and calls someone.

That window is not visible when McKay walks into the lab, but it must be the same room. So, not only are there at least three guards in the lab there are two more watching through the window. If you carry that a step farther there are likely to be closed circuit cameras in the lab as well.

Sheppard did not act alone. He would not have been able to allow the Wraith to feed on Wallace in secret. There is too much oversight by the SGC. The ‘official’ version of the incident that Sheppard tells McKay is the version the SGC wants reported. If Sheppard acted alone, without permission, he would be awaiting disciplinary action, not reading comic books in Atlantis.

[Silverwings]

Greed makes people do funny things, too. Witness the U.S. housing meltdown. Of course, that's not right, either, but you'd not know it by watching how the government is handling things. Bailouts for the greedy and stupid, yay!

So... to parallel, no repercussions for franchise leads, yay! Why should the rich/powerful have to behave like the rest of us? Or is it that the banking cartel lives in a fictional universe? Either way, it's a persistent fantasy that keeps cropping up; people would love to do things with no fear of consequences. That, or "define their own rules" or "do things my way"... doesn't everyone like the rebel? Especially if they are a "dark antihero" in their brooding hotness? That's show biz.

*shrug*

Whatever the case, just because something is wrong doesn't mean that it gets punished, or even recognized by the guilty party. Rationalizations go a long way.

[jelgate]

I'm confused Silverwings, do you support Sheppard decision or not?

[blue-skyz]

In which case his crimes are compounded by following an unlawful order and they are also on the hook for giving that order.

Forget the court martial, let’s start Senate hearings into the operations of the SGC.

And try Sheppard for crimes against humanity or whatever.

Sheppard was following orders. They were orders that he requested.

Just as he had to tell Wallace the situation, so that he could save Jeannie’s life, he had to tell General Landry the situation so that he could take Wallace to the Wraith without interference.

Sheppard also had to request that McKay’s access privileges be revoked. He wanted to save McKay from being any part of it.

[Silverwings]

I'm confused Silverwings, do you support Sheppard decision or not?

Sorry, I'll clarify. I don't think that what he did was right, I don't think it should have been written that way... but I'm not surprised that it was. "Dark" seems to be the new "black"... as it were. It's just the way things go in entertainment these days. I most definitely don't like it, but I'm not surprised by it.

[Jill_Ion]

Greed makes people do funny things, too. Witness the U.S. housing meltdown. Of course, that's not right, either, but you'd not know it by watching how the government is handling things. Bailouts for the greedy and stupid, yay!

So... to parallel, no repercussions for franchise leads, yay! Why should the rich/powerful have to behave like the rest of us? Or is it that the banking cartel lives in a fictional universe? Either way, it's a persistent fantasy that keeps cropping up; people would love to do things with no fear of consequences. That, or "define their own rules" or "do things my way"... doesn't everyone like the rebel? Especially if they are a "dark antihero" in their brooding hotness? That's show biz.

*shrug*

Whatever the case, just because something is wrong doesn't mean that it gets punished, or even recognized by the guilty party. Rationalizations go a long way.

I personally think your comparison of the US housing market to the SGC is a little flawed, but we can get into that another time.

Are any of the characters in SG-1 or SGA "rich" or "powerful?" They seem to be reasonably well off, as in having a job/car/house/apartment, but I don't call that "rich." YMMV.

Perhaps in their own li'l part of the galaxy they may be perceived as powerful, but outside of their Team/Expedition/Staff, they're nobodies like you or me. Every lead character has to answer to somebody.

When you say "franchise leads," you are referring to the characters, right? Your words could be perceived as talking about the actors, but I don't think that's what you're going for.

How often do main characters in TV shows realllllllly suffer "repercussions" as they would if they were real people? Not very often, from my viewing experience. Unless that character is being removed from the show, that is, and even then...

IYHO, what repercussions should Todd, Wallace, McKay, Sheppard, and Jeannie each have suffered?


Ooooh, I really like your phrase, Silverwing: "Dark is the new black."

[Silverwings]

You're reading me too literally, Ion. I'm talking about the characters being powerful as the prime motivators of storytelling in SGA. My use of the housing market was perhaps too "real world" to make the point. Sorry.

The main thrust of my comment was simply that the "shakers and movers" of our worlds, whether they be real or fictional, often do not suffer from reality. This includes dealing with consequences of actions, internal consistency, realistic survival rates (or reasons), or even realistic dialogue. (How many of us would like to have a "cut, take two" option for conversation?)

It's fiction. Again, I don't like what they did, but it doesn't surprise me. It's a weird psychological thing that people like rebels. Often, in storytelling, that takes the George Lucas path, with quirky characters rebelling against "the man" who is ultimately evil in some way. So, rebellion is clothed in righteousness.

Pushing rebellion and individualism too hard, as this did, is the natural evolution of "darker, edgier, sexier" that Hollywood seems so fond of. After all, rebellion doesn't exist without something to rebel against. After "laws" are exhausted, morals are the next obvious target. That's going to be especially true with the SGC, as they often operate outside the normal "laws".

And people love to be able to rebel without consequence. That doesn't mean it's right to do so, but it's that "dark" string of humanity that they seem to be reaching for. I don't think it's a good idea to let that particular demon loose. I'd rather watch something that is uplifting, but that's just me.

Edit: So, short story long, it was a bad choice, both on the part of Shep and on the part of the writers, but not a shocking one, sadly. Glad you liked the black comment!

[Mitchell82]

Forget the court martial, let’s start Senate hearings into the operations of the SGC.

And try Sheppard for crimes against humanity or whatever.

Sheppard was following orders. They were orders that he requested.

Just as he had to tell Wallace the situation, so that he could save Jeannie’s life, he had to tell General Landry the situation so that he could take Wallace to the Wraith without interference.

Sheppard also had to request that McKay’s access privileges be revoked. He wanted to save McKay from being any part of it.

Exactly. I agree 100%.

[Mitchell82]

You're reading me too literally, Ion. I'm talking about the characters being powerful as the prime motivators of storytelling in SGA. My use of the housing market was perhaps too "real world" to make the point. Sorry.

The main thrust of my comment was simply that the "shakers and movers" of our worlds, whether they be real or fictional, often do not suffer from reality. This includes dealing with consequences of actions, internal consistency, realistic survival rates (or reasons), or even realistic dialogue. (How many of us would like to have a "cut, take two" option for conversation?)

It's fiction. Again, I don't like what they did, but it doesn't surprise me. It's a weird psychological thing that people like rebels. Often, in storytelling, that takes the George Lucas path, with quirky characters rebelling against "the man" who is ultimately evil in some way. So, rebellion is clothed in righteousness.

Pushing rebellion and individualism too hard, as this did, is the natural evolution of "darker, edgier, sexier" that Hollywood seems so fond of. After all, rebellion doesn't exist without something to rebel against. After "laws" are exhausted, morals are the next obvious target. That's going to be especially true with the SGC, as they often operate outside the normal "laws".

And people love to be able to rebel without consequence. That doesn't mean it's right to do so, but it's that "dark" string of humanity that they seem to be reaching for. I don't think it's a good idea to let that particular demon loose. I'd rather watch something that is uplifting, but that's just me.

Edit: So, short story long, it was a bad choice, both on the part of Shep and on the part of the writers, but not a shocking one, sadly. Glad you liked the black comment!

I see your point but I disagree. It was a tough choice but not a bad one on Shep or the writers part. It was a realistic decision one life for many. One we have made countless times. And to quote Spock "The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few.