'Miller's Crossing' (409) General Discussion

[Skie]

McKay refusal to help a dying child and Sheppards cowardly actions - I could accept what he did if he at least had admitted to it - but pretending he played no part in Wallaces death and lying about what happened left me loosing a lot of respect for his character..

Same here. In the beginning I certainly wasn't rooting for the Wraith but after seeing how they treated Todd and other PG natives (CONDEMNED, OUTSIDERS) I started to sympathize more for the Wraiths than our guys. Surely that isn't how a series should let viewers feel.
And the sad thing is, at the end Rodney was the most empathic and moral guy, which is a pathetic thing to say, considering his usual character.

[Falcon Horus]

....other PG natives (CONDEMNED...

The administrating class plus the people who allowed their practices had it coming... They themselves had an alliance with the Wraith that as long as they kept sending prisoners to the island the rest of the city would be safe. Eventually they would have destroyed themselves with these rules as the Wraith would have wanted more and they couldn't provide. The people on the island fought back... and Atlantis gave them a hand.

While the whole situation is a little ambigous to say the least - the ruling class of that planet wasn't all that innocent either.

[Blizzah]

They addressed it so poorly. It wasn't just 'let's find a bad guy and feed him to Todd' it was also 'let's find a bad guy and feed him to Todd only when we feel we should bother feeding Todd' as well as 'Let's manipulate someone emotionally, preying on the loss of their loved one and take advantage of his suicidal thoughts due to grief and take no responsibility for what we did because we don't find anything wrong with this and the wraith doesn't care what we say in front of him'.

This guy went to extremes to save his kid and his actions led to the situation at hand. If anyone had to sacrifice themselves to save Rodney's sister this guy would have been a top candidate. I agree though that he was emotional and probably would not have been so agreeable at a later time once he had the chance to grieve and move on. So, yes, Shep was taking advantage the situation and timing but in way it was not totally off-side to ask the guy.

[Lythisrose]

While this is one of my favorite episodes, because it shows what lengths Sheppard would go to for his people, I do remember a huge outcry at the time over his actions. In fact, there was an attempt here to hold a mock-trial and people were signing up to be prosecutors, defense lawyers, expert witnesses, etc. Sadly, it never got off the ground, but it would have been interesting. There were some passionate views on either side and it made for some fascinating moral questions.

Ahhh, the good old days...

[WraithRichard]

This guy went to extremes to save his kid and his actions led to the situation at hand. If anyone had to sacrifice themselves to save Rodney's sister this guy would have been a top candidate. I agree though that he was emotional and probably would not have been so agreeable at a later time once he had the chance to grieve and move on. So, yes, Shep was taking advantage the situation and timing but in way it was not totally off-side to ask the guy.

So its perfectly fine to manipulate suicidal feelings in someone if it makes you happier?

[bluealien]

So its perfectly fine to manipulate suicidal feelings in someone if it makes you happier?

It seems it is if it's one of our heros... because it's noble for Sheppard to go to any lenghts to save someone he cares about - but obviously criminal for Wallace to do the same..

Wallace did start the ball rolling by kidnapping McKay and Jeannie..but if McKay had cooperated once he found out that he wasn't being asked to make some weapon of mass distruction we wouldn't have ended up with the situation with Jeanie..

Both men were desparate - both took drastic steps but one paid for his actions with his life. Wallace didn't want to hurt anyone - he just wanted McKay to help his daughter - but Sheppard went into that room with the sole intention of guilting Wallace into being food for Todd. He wanted Wallace dead, he lied about what happened and then says he only presented the situation. whatever the reason behind Sheppard taking this action doesn't negate the fact the he acted in a criminal way.. but he gets patted on the back.. he did what he had to do to save his friend! - Wallace did what the did to save his daughter and he gets a death sentence.

No one cared about Wallace reasons behind his actions...he was judged on those actions and Sheppard decided he should die for them.. but no one judged Sheppard.. his actions were just as criminal but because he's meant to be the hero he gets carte blanche - a licence to kill in you will...

Why didn't Sheppard offer to take McKays place...look into other options. The writers could have let Wallace redeem himself of his own free will by offering to save McKay himself..

I could have understood why Sheppard did what the did and accepted his actions, if he had admitted what he did was wrong and that he would have to live with what he did. But instead he denies any part in Wallaces death and we get the usual bantering and then they go off to eat, no consequenses. One rule for them and another for those who dare to put our heros in danger.. I'm getting tired of our so called heros acting like the bad guys and refusing to admit any wrong doing, but quick to accuse anyone else of wrong doing and then dish out their own brand of justice.

[Skie]

Agree so much with your post bluealien, especially the bits about SGA being the good guys and doing all those immoral actions without ANY consequences.

[WraithRichard]

Agree so much with your post bluealien, especially the bits about SGA being the good guys and doing all those immoral actions without ANY consequences.

At least ADMIT they're questionable acts. I could deal with it if the point was that these were flawed characters (bu no, TPTB forgot writing 101.)

[garhkal]

It always bothered me that we see our 'heroes' doing the same as the baddies and not getting any guilt over it...

[WraithRichard]

It always bothered me that we see our 'heroes' doing the same as the baddies and not getting any guilt over it...

Especially when the whole point of the show is how deserving humanity is of being the fifth race.

[Skie]

Especially when the whole point of the show is how deserving humanity is of being the fifth race.

Yup, Thor would definitely turn over in his grave.

[garhkal]

If he saw some of what we did, maybe the Asgard would not have made us the 5th race...

[WraithRichard]

If he saw some of what we did, maybe the Asgard would not have made us the 5th race...

Lying, torture, and genocide! Oh my!

[NowIWillDestroyAbydos]

I thought it wasn't as great as last season's ep.

It was weird seeing the SGC sets, knowing this was first season without SG-1.

I can't think of anything else except it was one of the better ones of the 4th season.

Tomorrow, the midseason finale.

[Lythisrose]

Joe Mallozzi's Blog entry:


MILLER’S CROSSING (309)

Back when Martin came up with the idea for the episode that first introduced Rodney’s sister, he was spinning ideas for a title when he came up with McKay and Mrs. Miller – a tip of the hat to the movie McCabe and Mrs. Miller. All he had to do was change Jeannie’s married name to Miller and, voila, the title worked perfectly. When it came time to doing a sequel (of sorts) to the episode, Martin again wracked his brain to come up with an appropriate title and finally settled on Miller’s Crossing – a tip of the hat to the Cohen Brothers movie of the same name. Granted, it’s a bit of a stretch but the siblings do end up crossing paths. Right?

Some controversy surrounding Sheppard’s actions at episode’s end – specifically, his manipulation of Wallace that sees the desperate father sacrifice himself to save his daughter and Jeannie (and, indirectly, Rodney who was about to offer himself up to the wraith). Dark? Yes. Morally and ethically suspect? Admittedly. Defensible? I would say, yes, absolutely. We went back and forth in the room on this one and ultimately decided that, while a tough choice, it’s one that John would make if it meant saving innocent lives. Still, the decision greatly troubles Rodney and, given John’s final scene, it’s evident that it doesn’t sit all that well with him either. From a creative standpoint, I loved the dilemma and the moral murkiness of Sheppard’s call as I felt it added a darker dimension to his at times enigmatic character.

The director’s cut ran long so a couple of scenes were cut for time. One involved Sheppard coming in on Ronon, sitting in their motel room, watching Battlestar Galactica. Ronon’s reaction to the show: “We’ve got to help those people!”. Sheppard explains it’s a t.v. show – but does concede that the lives of the Galactic crew do look a lot more exciting than theirs.