What's with the rampant loss of characters? ~spoilers up to Doppelganger~

[Mitchell82]

I did say that I haven't kept up with the latest Carson-info. Last time I checked (months ago), they said Paul's returning. When asked whether Carson was, there was no answer. And there's also that little problem with the fact that Carson blew up into a million pieces.

The consensus is that wasnt Carson and it's a bit irronic to make a statement about Carson like you did without all the info.

Also, how is [spoiler]Katie[/b] an important enough character to be used for "realism" by killing them off? They might as well kill off a red-shirt but they do it to them instead just snatch a few cheap points.

I don't see it that way but I will give my opinion after I see it.

The problem with this new trend of killing off characters is that it's not the Stargate Way. For 10 seasons of Stargate SG-1, only a handful of primary and secondary characters ever died or left the show. And never did more than two of them die/leave during one single season.

I count 45 and thats not counting the entire population of Tollana as well as Ravanna. That's also not counting red-shirts. Hardly a handfull.

Now, within 6 episodes, we've lost Carson, Elizabeth, Kate and possibly

Spoiler:

Katie

. It's not the Stargate way to kill off important characters for drama. It's obvious they've run out of ideas and are resorting to such cheap trickery (or are "experimenting") because they're too lazy to come up with better storylines.

I disagree.

[FallenAngelII]

Actually Carson was never intended to be a main character. He just sort of caught on with the fans and producers. I know people love certain charaters and that change is sometime hard to accept. That said this is a chance to grow to love newer charaters that may or may not bring something new to the table.

Does not matter. Carson was just as important, if not more, as Janet Fraser (and we all know how well killing her off turned out). I doubt they planned to make Vala a main character back in "Prometheus Unbound". But they did.

As far as Weir goes her acting was lame as of late. Whether they wrote good episodes for her character developement or not it was her job to sell her role, and quite frankly she did a piss poor job in that department imho. Besides she totally had an irritating voice when she got excited. Glad she is gone.

You mean "The Real World" (which I personally liked)? That's pretty much all she's gotten as of late.

And those that don't like the crossovers from SG-1, I am sorry but that show made it possible for Atlantis to exist. Without SG-1 there would have never been an Atlantis. Amanda Tapping brings a ton of acting ability and experiance to the show. Her character will evolve as the season progresses. She won't be the same all Carter that most of us know and love.

Umm... yeah.

The consensus is that wasnt Carson and it's a bit irronic to make a statement about Carson like you did without all the info.

It wasn't Carson? You mean the one who blew up or the remains? And by conscensus, you mean "fan speculation"?

I count 45 and thats not counting the entire population of Tollana as well as Ravanna. That's also not counting red-shirts. Hardly a handfull.

Primary and secondary (and possibly to some extent tertiary) characters? Could you please name then?

People disqualified:
* Kawalsky - Was only in two episodes (and could therefore count as a red-shirt) before dying. Has since then returned a few times, but he wasn't that important of a character before dying (after all, we never saw those two other guys on Jack's old team again)
* Janet Fraser - Killed for May sweeps because they thought the show was ending with season 7
* Ska'ara, Kasuf and the rest for the same reason as above
* Jacob Carter/Selmak - See above

Qualifications:
* Anyone who only appeared in 4-5 episodes or less (and out of those episodes, they have to have a prominent role in at least one). The show had 10 seasons. Of course a few characters are going to be featured a few times. If these 4-5 episodes all occured within a very short time frame, like, say, a single season, then we're talking. Also, they're really only tertiary characters if they don't play important roles in any of said episodes.
* Must not have died because they thought the show was ending and wanted to end it with a bang. For a while there, the writers kept offing secondary characters on a seasonal basis for sweeps because they kept thinking "This is it". So it doesn't really count. It's like how most shows usually have one or two primary and secondary characters bite the dust in the series finale (see the three examples cited)
* Must be primary or secondary. Tertiary characters do count, but if 75% of all characters you name are tertiary, then it's not like they were offing secondary and primary characters just like that.

[Falcon Horus]

I had this weird thought-pattern running through my head this morning.

Situation: TPTB sit together in a room and need to decide how to keep their show dramatic and dark and are mulling over ideas for Doppelganger:

TPTB 1: We need to have a dramatic, dark effect in the episode.
TPTB 2: Yeah, let's kill someone. This entity really means business.
TPTB 1: But who?
TPTB 2: Not Carter... *simultaneous shaking of the heads* No, not Carter. And not Keller cause we can't get rid of the hot babe.
TPTB 1: And no one from the team either, we still need them.
TPTB 2: How about Zelenka?
TPTB 1: No, the fans would kill us... They love him too much. Don't want another Save Campaign bugging us.
TPTB 2: Not Lorne either then...same problem. *mumbling in the room, they are in agreement*
TPTB 1: *frowns* Hey, do you remember that psychologist we had? What was his name again?
TPTB 2: Her name... We had an actress for that. *frown* Jane... something.
TPTB 1: *lightbulb* KATE!! It was Kate Heightmeyer.
TPTB 2: That's the one. See, we can barely remember her, so no one would really miss her anyway.


And I swear I don't even find it funny to write or think about it.

[prion]

I had this weird thought-pattern running through my head this morning.

Situation: TPTB sit together in a room and need to decide how to keep their show dramatic and dark and are mulling over ideas for Doppelganger:

TPTB 1: We need to have a dramatic, dark effect in the episode.
TPTB 2: Yeah, let's kill someone. This entity really means business.
TPTB 1: But who?
TPTB 2: Not Carter... *simultaneous shaking of the heads* No, not Carter. And not Keller cause we can't get rid of the hot babe.
TPTB 1: And no one from the team either, we still need them.
TPTB 2: How about Zelenka?
TPTB 1: No, the fans would kill us... They love him too much. Don't want another Save Campaign bugging us.
TPTB 2: Not Lorne either then...same problem. *mumbling in the room, they are in agreement*
TPTB 1: *frowns* Hey, do you remember that psychologist we had? What was his name again?
TPTB 2: Her name... We had an actress for that. *frown* Jane... something.
TPTB 1: *lightbulb* KATE!! It was Kate Heightmeyer.
TPTB 2: That's the one. See, we can barely remember her, so no one would really miss her anyway.


And I swear I don't even find it funny to write or think about it.

Alas, unfortunately,, yeah, who knows? maybe it's done like that (wouldn't surprise me).

[~Sarah~]

I don't know for me it's a bit as if they decided to sit down the the makers of 24, and go, wow, you guys kill of a great number of regular characters, no one is safe, and you get fabulous ratings... Then they look at each other and I bet we could get away with that.... okay who's first....

[Mitchell82]

It wasn't Carson? You mean the one who blew up or the remains? And by conscensus, you mean "fan speculation"?

Yes and the simple fact that JM said our Carson would be back and our speculation is the one who died was a clone.

People disqualified:
* Kawalsky - Was only in two episodes (and could therefore count as a red-shirt) before dying. Has since then returned a few times, but he wasn't that important of a character before dying (after all, we never saw those two other guys on Jack's old team again)
* Janet Fraser - Killed for May sweeps because they thought the show was ending with season 7
* Ska'ara, Kasuf and the rest for the same reason as above
* Jacob Carter/Selmak - See above

Qualifications:
* Anyone who only appeared in 4-5 episodes or less (and out of those episodes, they have to have a prominent role in at least one). The show had 10 seasons. Of course a few characters are going to be featured a few times. If these 4-5 episodes all occured within a very short time frame, like, say, a single season, then we're talking. Also, they're really only tertiary characters if they don't play important roles in any of said episodes.
* Must not have died because they thought the show was ending and wanted to end it with a bang. For a while there, the writers kept offing secondary characters on a seasonal basis for sweeps because they kept thinking "This is it". So it doesn't really count. It's like how most shows usually have one or two primary and secondary characters bite the dust in the series finale (see the three examples cited)
* Must be primary or secondary. Tertiary characters do count, but if 75% of all characters you name are tertiary, then it's not like they were offing secondary and primary characters just like that.

Sorry but Kawalsky is a secondary character and an important one from the movie so yes he counts, so does Janet and Jacob. Why they were knocked off doesnt matter. They are secondary characters. Kalwasky was not a red shirt he was a secondary. Others are Apophis,Sokar,Anubis,Hathor,Daniel (yes he counts),Jonas,Narim,Travell,Tanith,Gerak,Ryac,Drayac,Yu,Kronos do I need to go on? All these characters are secondary characters and they count. Which proves that it is a necesary decision to have to do.

[Mitchell82]

I had this weird thought-pattern running through my head this morning.

Situation: TPTB sit together in a room and need to decide how to keep their show dramatic and dark and are mulling over ideas for Doppelganger:

TPTB 1: We need to have a dramatic, dark effect in the episode.
TPTB 2: Yeah, let's kill someone. This entity really means business.
TPTB 1: But who?
TPTB 2: Not Carter... *simultaneous shaking of the heads* No, not Carter. And not Keller cause we can't get rid of the hot babe.
TPTB 1: And no one from the team either, we still need them.
TPTB 2: How about Zelenka?
TPTB 1: No, the fans would kill us... They love him too much. Don't want another Save Campaign bugging us.
TPTB 2: Not Lorne either then...same problem. *mumbling in the room, they are in agreement*
TPTB 1: *frowns* Hey, do you remember that psychologist we had? What was his name again?
TPTB 2: Her name... We had an actress for that. *frown* Jane... something.
TPTB 1: *lightbulb* KATE!! It was Kate Heightmeyer.
TPTB 2: That's the one. See, we can barely remember her, so no one would really miss her anyway.


And I swear I don't even find it funny to write or think about it.

I doubt it is done like that.

[Falcon Horus]

I doubt it is done like that.

Well, I sincerely hope not. Cause you know...weird...

[Mitchell82]

Well, I sincerely hope not. Cause you know...weird...

Me too.

[FallenAngelII]

Sorry but Kawalsky is a secondary character and an important one from the movie so yes he counts,

Motivate Kalwasky's position as a secondary character. He (with a different actor) was in the movie. Big deal. In the series, he got one episode where he didn't do much. Then he got another where he did a lot and then kinda, well, died.

And then he's gotten 3 or 4 episodes since. In two of those, he got a few lines. In the rest, he was mostly wallflower. He hasn't really contributed much to the show. But I'll let you count him.

There's usually also at least one season between each of his appearances and most of the time he gets few lines and important things to do.

so does Janet and Jacob. Why they were knocked off doesnt matter. They are secondary characters.

Janet and Jacob do not count because they weren't just killed due to a whim when the writers felt like they needed to off someone for dramatic purposes (which we seem to agree on being the reason why the writers are continously killing off characters on Atlantis this year).

Others are Apophis,Sokar,Anubis,Hathor

Hathor?! Hathor?! ... ... Hathor?! You mean the little villain who was featured in three episodes (with a gap of two seasons inbetween the first and second)?! And you call her secondary?!

Apophis, Sokar and Anubis were not killed off for dramatic purposes either. They were villains. They were meant to be defeated (and die) sometime.

Daniel (yes he counts)

Never died. Ascended, though. Twice. And then he guest starred. And then he came back. So it wasn't "He's gone now and will never return unless it's an alt!Timeline or alt!Universe".

Jonas

He died, you say?

Narim,Travell,Tanith,Gerak,Ryac,Drayac,Yu,Kronos

Rya'c died, you say? Travell was in, oh, one episode. Drey'auc was in one episode as well (and then she was mentioned in, like, two. Miko Kusanagi is not secondary for appearing in one episode and being referred to in two other episodes). She hardly counts as secondary. Tertiary.

Yu, Cronus and Tanith were all bad guys. Bad guys and tertiary characters (except Yu). Cronus also only appeared in 3 episodes, one of which was in a 5-second flashback sequence to when Teal'c father was killed. It's not like he had a prominent role.

do I need to go on? All these characters are secondary characters and they count. Which proves that it is a necesary decision to have to do.

All of these characters, with the exception of very few, are either still alive today, are bad guys and therefore destined to die sometime (because they are bad guys, bad guys die, it's like claiming Wraith Queen #12 was a secondary character because she was in two episodes and had quite a prominent role and then died) or appeared in 3 episodes or less (when I specifically asked for them to have appeared in at least 4-5 episodes) and at least 90% of them were tertiary characters or Ascended and then came back.

[Mitchell82]

Motivate Kalwasky's position as a secondary character. He (with a different actor) was in the movie. Big deal. In the series, he got one episode where he didn't do much. Then he got another where he did a lot and then kinda, well, died.

And then he's gotten 3 or 4 episodes since. In two of those, he got a few lines. In the rest, he was mostly wallflower. He hasn't really contributed much to the show. But I'll let you count him.

There's usually also at least one season between each of his appearances and most of the time he gets few lines and important things to do.


Janet and Jacob do not count because they weren't just killed due to a whim when the writers felt like they needed to off someone for dramatic purposes (which we seem to agree on being the reason why the writers are continously killing off characters on Atlantis this year).


Hathor?! Hathor?! ... ... Hathor?! You mean the little villain who was featured in three episodes (with a gap of two seasons inbetween the first and second)?! And you call her secondary?!

Apophis, Sokar and Anubis were not killed off for dramatic purposes either. They were villains. They were meant to be defeated (and die) sometime.


Never died. Ascended, though. Twice. And then he guest starred. And then he came back. So it wasn't "He's gone now and will never return unless it's an alt!Timeline or alt!Universe".


He died, you say?


Rya'c died, you say? Travell was in, oh, one episode. Drey'auc was in one episode as well (and then she was mentioned in, like, two. Miko Kusanagi is not secondary for appearing in one episode and being referred to in two other episodes). She hardly counts as secondary. Tertiary.

Yu, Cronus and Tanith were all bad guys. Bad guys and tertiary characters (except Yu). Cronus also only appeared in 3 episodes, one of which was in a 5-second flashback sequence to when Teal'c father was killed. It's not like he had a prominent role.


All of these characters, with the exception of very few, are either still alive today, are bad guys and therefore destined to die sometime (because they are bad guys, bad guys die, it's like claiming Wraith Queen #12 was a secondary character because she was in two episodes and had quite a prominent role and then died) or appeared in 3 episodes or less (when I specifically asked for them to have appeared in at least 4-5 episodes) and at least 90% of them were tertiary characters or Ascended and then came back.

This is pointless. If I remeber correctly the orriginal post was about not just people who died but left the show. That is why I counted a few still alive. Travell was in 4 episodes. The OP by you and following post mentioned why characters were killed and or left esp Weir. That is why I mentioned some that were alive. If you don't want to count ones that just left or written out fine I'll also give you Daniel. Still I disagree that they are killing off characters just for dramatic purposes. YOu stated that SG-1 only offed a few well i've proven otherwise. The characters I mentioned do count but this argument is pointless. I disagree that they are doing this just for drama and to piss off fans. It is an unfortunate biproduct of tv.

[FallenAngelII]

Wait, you're disagreeing on that they're offing characters for drama? Then what could thye possibly be doing it (because as far as we know, the actors and actresses themselves didn't go "Hey! I don't wanna do this anymore. Kill my character!")?

Actually, chancellor Travell was only in 3 episodes. Two of which featured her having, like, 4 lines. Hardly a secondary character. She only got one single episode where she actually, well, did stuff. And that was "Pretense".

And never once have I talked about characters "leaving the show" nor did I ask you to list people who just "left".

[Mitchell82]

Wait, you're disagreeing on that they're offing characters for drama? Then what could thye possibly be doing it (because as far as we know, the actors and actresses themselves didn't go "Hey! I don't wanna do this anymore. Kill my character!")?

Actually, chancellor Travell was only in 3 episodes. Two of which featured her having, like, 4 lines. Hardly a secondary character. She only got one single episode where she actually, well, did stuff. And that was "Pretense".

And never once have I talked about characters "leaving the show" nor did I ask you to list people who just "left".

Wow quite hostile arent you? No need for that. Yes killing characters is for drama but my chief point here was that as far as SGA and SG-1 are concerned SG-1 has lost way more than SGA.

[Agent_Dark]

its simple really. you have to break some eggs to make an omelette.

[maxbo]

I had this weird thought-pattern running through my head this morning.

Situation: TPTB sit together in a room and need to decide how to keep their show dramatic and dark and are mulling over ideas for Doppelganger:

TPTB 1: We need to have a dramatic, dark effect in the episode.
TPTB 2: Yeah, let's kill someone. This entity really means business.
TPTB 1: But who?
TPTB 2: Not Carter... *simultaneous shaking of the heads* No, not Carter. And not Keller cause we can't get rid of the hot babe.
TPTB 1: And no one from the team either, we still need them.
TPTB 2: How about Zelenka?
TPTB 1: No, the fans would kill us... They love him too much. Don't want another Save Campaign bugging us.
TPTB 2: Not Lorne either then...same problem. *mumbling in the room, they are in agreement*
TPTB 1: *frowns* Hey, do you remember that psychologist we had? What was his name again?
TPTB 2: Her name... We had an actress for that. *frown* Jane... something.
TPTB 1: *lightbulb* KATE!! It was Kate Heightmeyer.
TPTB 2: That's the one. See, we can barely remember her, so no one would really miss her anyway.


And I swear I don't even find it funny to write or think about it.

I wouldn't be surprised if something similar to this went into their decision making process. They could have chosen a one episode red-shirt for this, but didn't so I wouldn't be surprised if they went through a list of recurring characters to kill off and poor Kate was the loser.

Since TPTB/Sci-FI seem to believe that offing characters is a good way to shake things up, I'm bracing myself for a bumpier than usual season.