'Doppelganger' (404) General Discussion

[Agent_Dark]

Awww... But then all fandoms would be left with, like, 200 people, tops.

But! All the problems would be solved

[the dancer of spaz]

But! All the problems would be solved

True. Sad, but true.



Maybe if all the actors/characters were exceedingly, hideously, ugly... or eunics, perhaps?

[Agent_Dark]

Maybe if all the actors/characters were exceedingly, hideously, ugly... or eunics, perhaps?

then they wouldn't be worth watching ;|

[Elinor]

Evil Shep is just a thing of beauty - even his eyebrows reek of malice - you expect them to leap off his face and strangle someone.

You so get green for that! Heh! Reminded me of that Simpson's Halloween eppy where Homer gets a hair transplant from the Robber Guy (can't remember his name) and it comes alive and goes on a murdering spree!! Oooh...now there's an idea for an Atlantis storyline!! Sheppard's hair......

I loved this episode. Some great lines and scenes. McKay saying "I am a science team" and then being hauled off by the scruff of his neck by Ronon. Shep's "Did I have a goatee?!" and the clown in the boat.

Thing is, now I've been spoiled for wanting more episodes with Evil Shep v Lovely Shep! Blimey...that fight scene was hawt!!!

[Linzi]

You so get green for that! Heh! Reminded me of that Simpson's Halloween eppy where Homer gets a hair transplant from the Robber Guy (can't remember his name) and it comes alive and goes on a murdering spree!! Oooh...now there's an idea for an Atlantis storyline!! Sheppard's hair......

I loved this episode. Some great lines and scenes. McKay saying "I am a science team" and then being hauled off by the scruff of his neck by Ronon. Shep's "Did I have a goatee?!" and the clown in the boat.

Thing is, now I've been spoiled for wanting more episodes with Evil Shep v Lovely Shep! Blimey...that fight scene was hawt!!!

I missed Ponycake's post! That really made me smile!


My thoughts on DG:

It was brilliant! It's one of my favourite all time episodes already!

Firstly, I must single out Joe Flanigan here though. Without his performance the episode would have been flat in my eyes, and I personally appreciate his well thought out and subtle acting style here. I knew he was a talented actor, but this has shown me how much the man is capable of. To be honest, he exceeded my expectations, and those are pretty high at the best of times

You know, evil can be so OTT that it's sort of 'mawahahaha', and just hammy - and I hate that, because I enjoy subtle. I don't need or want things shoved in my face, thank you very much

Joe really played Evil Shep subtly, with so much conveyed in body language and facial expression. I think that's a much more effective and realistic approach than hamming it up. I knew immediately which Sheppard was evil. Instantly there was a change in the Sheppard traditional slouch and easy going demeanour, and though the change was subtle to start with, it gradually become more and more pronounced. I think that's brilliant acting on Joe's part, very well thought out, and effective. As for the vulnerabilty our Sheppard showed...my goodness Joe does that well. When he thought Rodney had died...well, suffice it to say, I thought he was upset at the events in Adrift concerning Weir, but, my goodness Sheppard was almost broken here! So dazed and grief stricken he didn't know what to do with himself! Oh dear, I love a vulnerable man!

I have to say I do think the directing was excellent here too, and, of course the writing. The dreams were strange, yet not ridiculous, and I enjoyed seeing into the psyche of each characters who's dreams we witnessed.

I loved that Evil Sheppard was menacing in a quiet way. I didn't want to see screaming, shouting and reams of angry dialogue like some writers would have written. I think RCC got it right here. However, if Joe F. hadn't done such an incredible job here, I don't think the episode would have succeeded as well as it did for me.

The fight scene between the two Sheppard's was amazing. I just couldn't believe how good is was. Well done to all those involved here, and to BamBam for his wonderful stunt co-ordination and choreography. I really liked Sheppard's fighting style.

The dreams were excellent.

Teyla's one was as I had expected. She's perhaps frightened of her feelings and a little scared too. I liked that it affected the way she thought of real Sheppard. I've had dreams where that's happened to me, and yes, you get over it and realise it wasn't real, but it does take a time. Edit: forgot to say I really liked Teyla in this episode!

Keller's dream was great! As a fan of Alien, I really appreciated her nightmare.

I can't lie and say I think Keller looks old enough to be CMO but she's a quirky character, and I did like her here. I have to say, I WISH someone would teach Jewel how to perform chest compression though...eeek, that was not good. It's one of the few things that does bug me about SGA; they need to get the medical stuff right!!!!

Ronon's dream took me by surprise. He's frightened of being abandoned and being alone and being buried alive? Can't say I blame him either! It's nice to see that Ronon is vulnerable in some way though.

Lorne's scared of the Replicators? Ok, why not? For the first time here, when Lorne was sleepwalking, it occured to me that the entity could be dangerous when inside people's minds, because it might do something dangerous to themselves or others, so this was an important part of the story.

Heightmeyer's dream. I didn't realise at first it was her dream, until after it was over. I couldn't decide whether she was afraid of heights, dying or both.

Her death surprised me, and while I'm obviously sorry for those who loved Kate (FH comes to mind primarily here), I think it was a good choice for the story. Too many times we can spot the old planted red shirts, and this shocked me. A well loved member of the expedition, though a minor character, was killed. That suddenly made the whole episode more serious for me, and upped the stakes.

Rodney's dream was hysterical! Being frightened of whales eating you is actually, for me, quite a feasible thing to be frightened of if you've felt that way since childhood. When he died I didn't instantly realise it was in Sheppard's dream, and in fact, a member of my family who watched DG with me, said 'Oh no, they're not killing Rodney, are they?' Naturally I knew better!

Clowns? Seriously, who likes them? Because nobody I know appears to!

I did like the Sheppard/McKay friendship here. They both wanted to help the other out, no matter the personal cost. Very well done, I thought. I laughed at Rodney saying that he was surprised there weren't any hot girls in Shep's dream. I loved the earlier line of Sheppard's about did evil Shep have a goatee! Very funny!

Sheppard's worst fear is himself? Letting his friends down? I'm not surprised, but it's good to have that confirmed.

Carter.

I liked her here. I'd agree she was subdued somewhat, but I think she's finding her feet still leader wise, and we haven't yet seen Reunion which will help put this into context. I didn't find her speech about Heightmeyer emotionless, just professional. She didn't know Kate well, and wouldn't have been in floods of tears. She got it right for me. She was strong and calm, how a leader should be. I didn't have a problem with Carter referencing her past experiences here, and liked that her knowledge actually helped to save the day. She was important here, and that's important for me. I want her to be there for a reason, though, as I said prior to this, a careful balance is essential, IMO.

I must admit though, that when I first watched this episode it took me a while to get used to the change in casting here. It wasn't that I missed Weir, because I didn't, to be honest, though as far as Carson goes, part of me does sort of feel sad he's not there giving his all to save his friends. But, what's done is done, and I moved forward quite a while ago. It was just seeing new faces where they hadn't previously been. It was a different feel for the show in places, and I did initially feel a little insecure about that. After watching a second time, I was fine, and felt I knew the new characters in their new roles better.

Keller was an unknown in most respects, and though I know and love Carter well, she was different here, which, I have to say, I liked overall. She's in a different position now, and we're seeing another side to her. She seems cooler and more detached, but I do think that's what a leader has to be like to a certain extent. Also, as I said earlier, it's early days and she's still finding her place there.

The end scene was the only thing that could've been done better for me, and I'm being really picky here! I'd have preferred an infirmary scene, with Shep and McKay under observation, unable to sleep, and then the rest of the team coming in because they couldn't sleep either, and wanted to visit them. I think it would have worked better for me, because then it would've not seemed so forced that they were seeking each other out, (not Shep's team, but I mean really Keller and Carter here). I mean if you can't sleep and your friends are in the infirmary, why not visit them? Keller could have been on duty, Carter popping in after work to check on the boys etc... It would've flowed more, I think. So, I do accept some poster's point that the last scene was, perhaps, a little forced, especially for the new team members perhaps. I think the original four would seek each other out anyway.

That's just a small quibble though on my part. The whole episode was fantastic entertainment, and I am really excited and pleased at how wonderful this episode turned out to be. I had such huge expectations, and those were realised easily. Well done to all, again, especially Joe Flanigan and Robert C Cooper!

[Agent_Dark]

I can't lie and say I think Keller looks old enough to be CMO but she's a quirky character, and I did like her here. I have to say, I WISH someone would teach Jewel how to perform chest compression though...eeek, that was not good. It's one of the few things that does bug me about SGA; they need to get the medical stuff right!!!!

Actually, from what I've heard (I have nfi myself), the medical jargon in the first couple of eps hasn't been too bad. Obviously they haven't got every little detail right, but it hasn't been totally wrong either. Though I will give you the compressions lol. To be fair to Jewel though - they are tiring, and who knows how many takes they have to do for the shot.

[Linzi]

Actually, from what I've heard (I have nfi myself), the medical jargon in the first couple of eps hasn't been too bad. Obviously they haven't got every little detail right, but it hasn't been totally wrong either. Though I will give you the compressions lol. To be fair to Jewel though - they are tiring, and who knows how many takes they have to do for the shot.

The medical stuff in Adrift and Lifeline was ok, but SGA doesn't have a good record with resus scenes...cough...38 Minutes...cough! Or with where to stick IV's, but it's a minor niggle on my part. You do have a point on the chest compressions being exhausting, but there's no way you could do them properly on a real person who didn't need them anyway, for obvious reasons. As Peg said either here or somewhere else, Keller should have used the heels of her hands and had straight arms, but also, as someone else said, as it was all Sheppard's dream, maybe he dreamed the CPR incorrectly!

[P-90_177]

as someone else said, as it was all Sheppard's dream, maybe he dreamed the CPR incorrectly!

that wouldn't surprise me in the least. lol.

Anyway i've just seen it and i have to say that i loved this ep. I've been waiting for a truly dark and moody sga ep for ages now and this performed that in spades. i also liked the references to carters time with sg-1. I hope they don't overuse lines like that but really one of the things carter really has going for her at the minute is her major experience. That's probably why she was put in command.

Anyway I thought it was one of the best atlantis eps i've seen.

As much as i like mckay i have to say that it was good to see an episode where he wasn't whining or being terrified of impending death. In fact he seemed fairly calm when it came out that he was infected.

I enjoyed how much time each cast member got. And i do mean all of them, including Ronon and Teyla. Even Keller seemed to fit in seemlessly and I enjoyed the fact that they made reference that carter may be still geting used to command after she gave her speech about heightmyer.
As for losing heightmyer, i really didn't mind. At first I thought it was going to be a shame but she didn't really seem like that good a character in this episode. Also i thought that her dream was the one thing that didn't really make much sense. I mean loads of people have nightmares about falling but there was just something off about it. It would have been better if Evil shep threw her off the balcony.
Having said that I loved seeing everybody elses dreams. I loved how it showed what everyone's fears are. How teyla is afraid of being fed on by a wraith, how Ronon is afraid of being Alone and buried alive, Kellers was sort of like alien (i thought that was a fantastic reference and i thought the actual dream sequence was amazingly done.) Mckays was a bit surreal....but still quite cool. esspecially the clown. I just wish we got to see something else that sheppard was afraid off since the whole 'afraid of failing everyone' thing is a bit cliche.

Finally I have to say that the fight at the end was sooooooooo cool.

[FallenAngelII]

I guess you dislike everyone else who calls him 'McKay' too then? Or is it yet another case of 'use a hypocritical reason to hate a character'?

Despite outranking Sheppard and no longer needing to refer to him by his rank (much like how John never referred to Sam by hers), Sam still referred to him by rank, possibly as some sort of honorrific.

When referring to Rodney, however, she didn't call him by his first name (like she does with civilians, like, say, Daniel) and she didn't refer to him by title (Doctor) either. He was just "McKay", quite unpersonal and cold in my opinion for someone she's known (professionally) for years.

[P-90_177]

Despite outranking Sheppard and no longer needing to refer to him by his rank (much like how John never referred to Sam by hers), Sam still referred to him by rank, possibly as some sort of honorrific.

When referring to Rodney, however, she didn't call him by his first name (like she does with civilians, like, say, Daniel) and she didn't refer to him by title (Doctor) either. He was just "McKay", quite unpersonal and cold in my opinion for someone she's known (professionally) for years.

but she's always called him mckay. I think it'd be unrealistic if she did sudden;y start calling him rodney. Besides, I have two friends, Walker and Sims. I call them by their last names becasue they sound better than their first names. Doesn't mean they aren't my friends though.

[SG13-NightOps]

Despite outranking Sheppard and no longer needing to refer to him by his rank (much like how John never referred to Sam by hers), Sam still referred to him by rank, possibly as some sort of honorrific.

When referring to Rodney, however, she didn't call him by his first name (like she does with civilians, like, say, Daniel) and she didn't refer to him by title (Doctor) either. He was just "McKay", quite unpersonal and cold in my opinion for someone she's known (professionally) for years.

I am sure she will remember to call him Meredith occasionally ... in fact, I'm an equally surprised she hasnt yet.

But she has always called him McKay - its part of their 'history'. She uses the less familiar because it continues to put him outside her circle of potential mates.

[FallenAngelII]

It keeps him outside of her circle of potential mates? Like how she always called Daniel "Daniel"? Does that mean she was constantly hitting on him? And I'm pretty sure she calls Dr. Lee "Bill".

The thing is that Sam didn't really know McKay back when they first met. Of course calling him McKay then would've been logical. Years down the line, they know each other better. They've worked together on the Intergalactic Bridge and Rodney calls her Sam. Yet she insists on calling him McKay.

And it also still makes no sense how she would use the "honorific" Colonel when referring to John (as it's not necessary since she outranks him) but not use the "honorific" Doctor when referring to Rodney (as it would be curteous and military code. For example, Hammond and Landry often refer/referred to Daniel as Dr. Jackson).

[SG13-NightOps]

It keeps him outside of her circle of potential mates? Like how she always called Daniel "Daniel"? Does that mean she was constantly hitting on him? And I'm pretty sure she calls Dr. Lee "Bill".

The thing is that Sam didn't really know McKay back when they first met. Of course calling him McKay then would've been logical. Years down the line, they know each other better. They've worked together on the Intergalactic Bridge and Rodney calls her Sam. Yet she insists on calling him McKay.

And it also still makes no sense how she would use the "honorific" Colonel when referring to John (as it's not necessary since she outranks him) but not use the "honorific" Doctor when referring to Rodney (as it would be curteous and military code. For example, Hammond and Landry often refer/referred to Daniel as Dr. Jackson).

Apples and Oranges.

Daniel and Dr Lee have not made it their mission in life to hit on her every chance they got. Its not her saying Daniel Is a potential. Its a way of telling McKay that HE is not.
She was exactly the same with Felger - because by not making it more personal, it does not send the wrong signals. Its a very typical female trait. I do it myself. If you don't make it too personal, you wont give them the impression you are interested.

On the Honorifics - Jack only ever called her Captain, Captain Dr, Major, Colonel and Carter. Even after 8 years. I do think you are making a big deal out of nothing.

[Linzi]

Apples and Oranges.

Daniel and Dr Lee have not made it their mission in life to hit on her every chance they got. Its not her saying Daniel Is a potential. Its a way of telling McKay that HE is not.
She was exactly the same with Felger - because by not making it more personal, it does not send the wrong signals. Its a very typical female trait. I do it myself. If you don't make it too personal, you wont give them the impression you are interested.

On the Honorifics - Jack only ever called her Captain, Captain Dr, Major, Colonel and Carter. Even after 8 years. I do think you are making a big deal out of nothing.

Ditto!

I'm often surprised that Ronon sometimes calls Sheppard 'John' when 99% of the time he calls him Sheppard and never Colonel. Teyla calls Sheppard John, and Colonel but I don't recall her calling him Sheppard, though it's possible she has. McKay nearly always says Sheppard, and sometimes Colonel and 'John' once so far. It was the same for Weir, sometimes Colonel, John or Sheppard. I've no idea what any of it all means or what the significance is here. Actually I don't think there's any at all. It seems in the military they do appear to call others by their last names a lot, as do men often who aren't in the military generally. Teyla is always called Teyla though and never Ms Emmagen, and Ronon is never Dex. Maybe the writers just like to mix it up a bit?

Though in the case mentioned here, I think Carter was being strictly professional with McKay, and perhaps saying 'Rodney' would have been too personal? She certainly has called him McKay more than she's called him Rodney in the past, though in Lifeline

Spoiler:

she called him 'Rodney' over the radio, if I remember correctly, but only after he'd called her 'Sam'.

So, basically, I don't think it means anything at all, though maybe the first names are used for off duty time and in moments of emotion, relief or crisis?

[FallenAngelII]

Daniel and Dr Lee have not made it their mission in life to hit on her every chance they got. Its not her saying Daniel Is a potential. Its a way of telling McKay that HE is not.
She was exactly the same with Felger - because by not making it more personal, it does not send the wrong signals. Its a very typical female trait. I do it myself. If you don't make it too personal, you wont give them the impression you are interested.

As far as we know, Rodney hasn't hit on Sam for years. And Sam made it pretty obvious nothing would ever out of it. Also, Sam's taken over as leader and is supposed to "bond" with the senior staff and whatever. Also, you call your male acquaintances by their last name in order to not make them think "Hey, I can hit on her now!"?

On the Honorifics - Jack only ever called her Captain, Captain Dr, Major, Colonel and Carter. Even after 8 years. I do think you are making a big deal out of nothing.

Jack never called Sam "Colonel Carter", "Major Carter", "Captain Carter" och anything like that when talking to her, though. He only referred to her as such when talking about her with others, as would be logical and curteous to do.

When speaking with Sam, he might've occasionally called her by her rank, but it was never (or it might've been once or twice) "*Rank* Carter". It was either just the rank or, in most cases, simply "Carter".

However, it can be argued that Sam doesn't know John well enough to drop the "Colonel" yet. However, that does not change the fact that Sam doesn't refer to Rodney by degree (Doctor). It's highly illogical and inappropriate (especially if she's supposed to "keep him at arm's length" by making it less personal) to not do so.

95% of the time, the rest of the expedition (bar John, Ford, Teyla and Ronon for obvious reasons), call him Dr. McKay. With Rodney, it's always Rodney, Dr. McKay or in the rare instances where people know him well and consider him a close friend (Teyla, John, Ford, Ronon), McKay.

Sam, apparently, does not consider Rodney a close enough friend call him by his first name. Appropriately, she should refer to him by degree. Especially since I cannot remember a single instance where she's addressed someone else (while at the SGC, Atlantis or any other post as part of her work) with a doctor's degree simply by their last name. I've never heard "Lee", "Weir", or "Fraser", etc. come out of her mouth, even when talking about them to others. It's always "Bill", "Janet" and "Dr. Weir", etc.

It would have been appropriate and in character to have her call Rodney "Dr. McKay".