'Doppelganger' (404) General Discussion

[Falcon Horus]

Probably have to do a poll on this, but I think most people tend to wake up before they go splat in their dreams.

I think I have agree with above that one would wake up before hitting the bottom.

It's also hard to tell if you'd actually be awake or aware enough at the point you hit, especially when you fall from such a height. You can't really ask anybody, well, except the few fortunates whose parachutes failed and they survived. I'd honestly prefer no sound effects of people hitting as well, I saw that 9/11 special on CBS years and that's one sound you'll never forget.

In my honest opinion, I think one doesn't actually feel the impact itself, but only the pain that comes after the impact, unless impact kills you of course or renders you unconscious.
I was once hit by a car and it wasn't the impact itself that hurt but the pain following that impact. I don't know... just speculating.

******

Okay, the episode from my POV:

It was very light in atmosphere up until Kate's nightmare and her death. Yes, there are Teyla's, Jennifer's and Ronon's nightmares but there are always happy interludes. The way they always end up in the cafeteria talking to each other. There is the sense something is wrong but you don't have the feeling like it's going to be really bad. It's building up to something.

The stand-off in the crew-quarter's atrium was nicely done. Lorne sleepwalking with a gun in his hands, threatening Sheppard. Poor Evan all confused and getting shot by Ronon, ever the practical man.

Ronon dragging Rodney off is so funny. It's like he finally gets to do what he always wanted to to do with McKay. And when he points out that he's the science team, using that little tidbit against him after the briefing.

I loved the little scene in the cafeteria where Jennifer, Ronon, Rodney and Teyla are talking about Alien and the dreams. That was a sweet little scene.

And then the moment everything goes to hell...

You know the scene in the briefing room where Kate says that the entity may come to enjoy the thrill of the ride (or something to that extent) and will take pleasure of manipulating the host's body and put them in jeopardy... I had a flashback to the scene in Serenity where the crew of the Firefly is standing in that city where everybody is dead and Wash says "They're all dead." and the camera goes from one person to the other ending with him. I've always taken that as a sign to what happens to him later in the movie where he gets pierced. The same is true for Kate who later ends up being the one ending up dead due to the entity making her belief she fell off the tower.

If I hadn't known so many spoilers (and I'm glad I did) I would have considered this to be Teyla's dream. Though I'm fascinated to see that Kate conjurs up Teyla to walk onto the balcony. (Why yes, my little shippy heart bounced all over the place.) It's her she conjurs up to help her out, though the entity won't allow for anyone to interfere and yeah, that's the end of Kate. I swear, my heart stopped the moment the screen went black.
Oh my goddess, Teyla saying those words "I can't wake her." (and again my shippy heart breaks into a gazillion pieces) And then I fainted again at the sight of Kate in her night-thingy... What?!? I can't help it, okay.

Teyla going to John... Poor guy was so awkward. He sure does remind me of myself whenever someone tries to hug me. I know exactly how awkward that can be. Of course, since my OTP is Kate/Teyla I didn't see anything shippy in that scene other than two friends consoling each other.

I cringed at Carter big time. And her short tribute to Kate fell flatter than Kate hitting the bottom of the tower. There was something seriously wrong with that scene that I can't put my finger on, other than the fact that I would have preferred Elizabeth in there...which in my opinion is still a way better fit than Carter. The part where Keller tells Carter she did a good job, was just the final straw of my cringing. That was so put in there to ease the tension of Carter being the new leader. It didn't go down well with me personally.

The final showdown beginning with Rodney and his nightmare and ending with John getting rid of the entity was very well done. John got his behind whupped by his evil twin and really dude, that was one bad whuppin'. I didn't mind the lack of blood or physical evidence of the punches and kicks.
I found it weird that Rodney would be afraid of the whale while he had one as a pet in Echoes. Sam was forgotten for the sake of the story probably.

Then one last thing I should add...

About the fears... I've seen people suggest Kate's fear might be heights, but I have my own little theory on that. (of course I do) I think she was more afraid of dying than of the actual height. Someone who's afraid of heights will rarely climb on top of a railing of a very high balcony, would they?
Kate's been there from the very beginning and has been off-world when the storm hit Atlantis, has been there during the siege and all other times Atlantis was in grave danger. So, therefor I conclude she's more afraid of dying.

******

Ultimately what do I think of this episode...

I think it was good. I pretty much liked all the scenes, except the ones with Carter. And obviously I'm pretty devastated they decided to kill Kate. Nothing after this one will be the same again, because I know she will never be back. That little spark of hope was destroyed when the screen went black.

I have seen it twice so far, but I doubt I'll watch it again any time soon. There are however several plotbunnies hopping around, among them one musicvid-bunny which would like to see this episode used.
For now, I return to my happy place in the land of denial.

Edit: I forgot something... The last scene where they eventually all end up in the cafetaria. Could have done without it. It felt forced. TPTB's way of showings us 'Look, they're all good friends already'.

[Ltcolshepjumper]

Okay, the episode from my POV:

It was very light in atmosphere up until Kate's nightmare and her death. Yes, there are Teyla's, Jennifer's and Ronon's nightmares but there are always happy interludes. The way they always end up in the cafeteria talking to each other. There is the sense something is wrong but you don't have the feeling like it's going to be really bad. It's building up to something.

The stand-off in the crew-quarter's atrium was nicely done. Lorne sleepwalking with a gun in his hands, threatening Sheppard. Poor Evan all confused and getting shot by Ronon, ever the practical man.

Ronon dragging Rodney off is so funny. It's like he finally gets to do what he always wanted to to do with McKay. And when he points out that he's the science team, using that little tidbit against him after the briefing.

I loved the little scene in the cafeteria where Jennifer, Ronon, Rodney and Teyla are talking about Alien and the dreams. That was a sweet little scene.

And then the moment everything goes to hell...

You know the scene in the briefing room where Kate says that the entity may come to enjoy the thrill of the ride (or something to that extent) and will take pleasure of manipulating the host's body and put them in jeopardy... I had a flashback to the scene in Serenity where the crew of the Firefly is standing in that city where everybody is dead and Wash says "They're all dead." and the camera goes from one person to the other ending with him. I've always taken that as a sign to what happens to him later in the movie where he gets pierced. The same is true for Kate who later ends up being the one ending up dead due to the entity making her belief she fell off the tower.

If I hadn't known so many spoilers (and I'm glad I did) I would have considered this to be Teyla's dream. Though I'm fascinated to see that Kate conjurs up Teyla to walk onto the balcony. (Why yes, my little shippy heart bounced all over the place.) It's her she conjurs up to help her out, though the entity won't allow for anyone to interfere and yeah, that's the end of Kate. I swear, my heart stopped the moment the screen went black.
Oh my goddess, Teyla saying those words "I can't wake her." (and again my shippy heart breaks into a gazillion pieces) And then I fainted again at the sight of Kate in her night-thingy... What?!? I can't help it, okay.

Teyla going to John... Poor guy was so awkward. He sure does remind me of myself whenever someone tries to hug me. I know exactly how awkward that can be. Of course, since my OTP is Kate/Teyla I didn't see anything shippy in that scene other than two friends consoling each other.

I cringed at Carter big time. And her short tribute to Kate fell flatter than Kate hitting the bottom of the tower. There was something seriously wrong with that scene that I can't put my finger on, other than the fact that I would have preferred Elizabeth in there...which in my opinion is still a way better fit than Carter. The part where Keller tells Carter she did a good job, was just the final straw of my cringing. That was so put in there to ease the tension of Carter being the new leader. It didn't go down well with me personally.


Then one last thing I should add...


******

Ultimately what do I think of this episode...

I think it was good. I pretty much liked all the scenes, except the ones with Carter. And obviously I'm pretty devastated they decided to kill Kate. Nothing after this one will be the same again, because I know she will never be back. That little spark of hope was destroyed when the screen went black.

I have seen it twice so far, but I doubt I'll watch it again any time soon. There are however several plotbunnies hopping around, among them one musicvid-bunny which would like to see this episode used.
For now, I return to my happy place in the land of denial.

Edit: I forgot something... The last scene where they eventually all end up in the cafetaria. Could have done without it. It felt forced. TPTB's way of showings us 'Look, they're all good friends already'.

1) carter lacked emotion
2) the last scene did seem oddly tacked on at the end.

[Killdeer]

I just hope that they will stop write for Carter lines like "I have seen that before"..."Believe it or not, I have been there before"...."We have seen few entities...". Something of those lines made sense for explaining (not everyone have seen SG1), but the scene where they spoke about keep McKay awake and she said this "Believe it or not, I have been there before", I made a silent "ts, ts" already.

Yes, I agree completely. I know it wouldn't make sense for her not to reference similar experiences on SG-1, but there were a few extra lines, including this one, that I thought pushed the point just a little too far. It's not really a good thing to have her constantly bringing up her vast amount of experience and how she's seen and done everything. It's a "show, don't tell" situation. They're trying to show that she's qualified, but they're overdoing it. Hopefully they'll back way off on that, and even more so throw her into some situations where she has no points of reference, because she's never had to deal with anything similar before.

And Rachel seemed more comfortable.

I've noticed this as well. She's a lot more relaxed in her acting than I've seen her previously.

I think it would be better to see this after Reunion. I liked this episode but the jump into "new" SGA was fast and I will have to get used to it. And it really doesn´t seem as the same show to me. It´s not necessarily wrong but...I loved the old one and I hope they won´t rush up anything.

I agree. In some ways, I'm glad I got to see this one first, but I'm also looking forward to seeing it in context.

[Ltcolshepjumper]

I just hope that they will stop write for Carter lines like "I have seen that before"..."Believe it or not, I have been there before"...."We have seen few entities...". Something of those lines made sense for explaining (not everyone have seen SG1), but the scene where they spoke about keep McKay awake and she said this "Believe it or not, I have been there before", I made a silent "ts, ts" already.
I think those scenes made her presence little pointless. She was there just to say what she did when she was in SG1. But the speech...I am not sure. I think it was her duty as a leader to do it. But she didn´t know Kate too well, she is there for a short time and so she can´t feel too much about it. But I think it is interesting for her, how she will deal with this in the future. With death of people under her command I mean.

I was particularly annoyed at the office scene, and I cringed when Shep said "Surely in all of your years you've dealt with something like this..."
I was really pissed because it was the exact reason I did not like the decision to move her over. It really did not support the claim that she has a supporting role. I do NOT want her being the savior of the team. that's what that scene displayed.

[prion]

suppose this is the place to post. from today's JM blog... forgive the mangling of the translation of French question *cough*

Thors a ecrit: “Beaucoup de fan pense qu'Atlantis n'est qu'un "Copier-Coller" (ex : Doppelganger) de SG1 aux niveau Scénario. Un commentaire ?”

[Uh, Babelfish translation! "Much fan thinks that Atlantis is only one "Copy-To stick" (ex: Doppelganger) of SG1 on the level Scenario. A comment?" so.... anybody who can actually translate should step in]

Answer: I’ll respond to this one in English. Thors writes “A lot of fans think that Atlantis is nothing but a carbon-copy of SG-1” and uses Doppleganger as an example. Well, for starters, there are going to be plenty of similarities between SG-1 and Atlantis because both shows are part of the same Stargate franchise, and both series follow the same template: team explores other worlds via the gate. As for similarities between scripts - again, given that we are working within the same (Stargate) universe, there will be similarities between certain story elements. Take Doppleganger, for instance, which has been compared to Cold Lazarus. The parallels being drawn are to the crystal entity that (in a nutshell) causes the targeted individual to hallucinate. Again, given that we are operating within the same story-telling framework, we it is not outside the realm of possibility (in fact, it’s even probable) that our heroes will encounter similar species or off-shoots of certain species - in this case, the crystal entity. Complaining about this aspect of the script is like complaining about using the goa’uld or the wraith on more than one occasion. The crystal entity may not be as prevalent as the aforementioned races, but we have already established them as part of the same Stargate universe.

[Alipeeps]

Prion, Joe translates it himself in his answer...

[Falcon Horus]

Prion, Joe translates it himself in his answer...

Babelfish-translation is a quite literal translation... which looks funky btw.

[Alipeeps]

Babelfish-translation is a quite literal translation... which looks funky btw.

It's very literal - quite literally translating one word at a time regardless of context - and quite often hilarious.

[the dancer of spaz]

Yep! I'm with you on the lack of blood. I would have liked to have seen some personally. I wonder why RCC chose not to have any physical injuries on Sheppard in his dream?

I haven't seen the episode yet (curses!), but maybe it was an artistic choice that showed how nothing in the dreams was truly "real?" The physical evidence of blood and bruises would suggest that it's really happening to the characters, bringing us back to a real world battle, whereas showing them getting injured/battered without true evidence perhaps lends to a creepier, other-worldly tone.

Or it could just be lazy writing.

[Killdeer]

I haven't seen the episode yet (curses!), but maybe it was an artistic choice that showed how nothing in the dreams was truly "real?" The physical evidence of blood and bruises would suggest that it's really happening to the characters, bringing us back to a real world battle, whereas showing them getting injured/battered without true evidence perhaps lends to a creepier, other-worldly tone.

I agree with this - that was my take on it.

[prion]

Prion, Joe translates it himself in his answer...

I meant the question, not the answer.

[Alipeeps]

I meant the question, not the answer.

That's what I meant too - he translates the question in his own answer:

Thors writes “A lot of fans think that Atlantis is nothing but a carbon-copy of SG-1” and uses Doppleganger as an example.

[Commander Ivanova]

'copier-coller' is more 'cut and paste (job)' than 'carbon copy' but we get the point.

Whether or not it was inspired by Cold Lazarus, I very much liked the darker tone of this ep.
Evil Shep was great, JF really got a chance to show off.
Loved Shep and Rodney risking all to come to each other's aid.
Always good to see Lorne.
Shame about Kate though.

[prion]

I haven't seen the episode yet (curses!), but maybe it was an artistic choice that showed how nothing in the dreams was truly "real?" The physical evidence of blood and bruises would suggest that it's really happening to the characters, bringing us back to a real world battle, whereas showing them getting injured/battered without true evidence perhaps lends to a creepier, other-worldly tone.

Or it could just be lazy writing.

The SG folk seem to be scared of showing blood. *cough*

Anyway, unless they went the Freddy Kreuger route, whatever happens in the dreams won't happen to the body. Kate died of just shock from dying in the dream (shades of Nightmare on Elm Street). Had those injuries all been transmuted to the real world, well, let's see, they'd all be dead! McKay masticated by a whale, Shep beaten to death (that fling off the balcony is massive blunt force trauma), Ronon would have suffocated (well, if Shep had finished the burial before Ronon snapped awake)... and while blood will show while bruises do take time to form.

[the dancer of spaz]

Personally, I think excessive use of blood (even when it makese sense) takes away from the action and the drama. It gives it a slasher movie feel that is completely unnecessary. I'm glad RCC didn't go the pseudo-Quentin Tarantino/SAW 4 route.