McKay, Weir, Shep, and the nanites

[Trek_Girl42]

thinking from one's heart and acting as such does not necessarily make one right...

saving a person's life is almost always of the utmost importance... but NOT at the risk of having a situation develop such as the compromise of Atlantis, its personnel, and the gate to eart...

i still maintain that Rodney's actions were, regardless of their outcome, completely wrong under the situation... you have to remember that Atlantis is at war and decisions about life and death are judged differently during times of war...

I won't disagree with you there, however I think the point was that this shows how much Rodney has evolved since season one. Even with his extreme self-confidence, he would never have taken this action back then- remember that his sense of self-preservation is enormous. By taking the actions he did in Adrift, he's pretty much throwing that out the window. It's an important moment for his character.

[Cautious Explorer]

OK, now, based on EdenSG's statements, even IF Rodney didn't get the programming 100% correct the first time around, what is there to say that he couldn't fix it later? He could reprogram Niam and all of the others.... Why couldn't he fix any flaw later? Then again, Rodney has tons of faith in computers and machines, that's how he is.

I think the problem was that if Rodney made a miscalculation, it would only take an instant for the Asurans to be alerted to Atlantis' location. There wouldn't be any time to fix his mistake. If Rodney's wrong, they're all dead.

[P-90_177]

additionally there may have been a risk of the nanites taking over weir and taking her on a killing rampage (ok probably not but you gotta take all possibilities into consideration when you take that sort of risk)

[IrishPisano]

in wartime situations, which this was, you cannot wait for the results to determine if a choice was the right one or not...

[EdenSG]

First let me say that I find the discussion on this thread very interesting and I think everyone has had good points to make.

Second, let me add some clarification to my first post.
In the end I don’t think Rodney should have reactivated the nanites. What I meant by neither being right or wrong is that there is both right and wrong in what they were thinking and feeling. But the question is, can you be right about certain things and still make a bad decision?

I have not seen Lifeline so

Spoiler:

I have no idea what the repercussions of activating the nanites are – but at the time Rodney reactivated them he had no idea either and neither did Sheppard. So I do think Rodney took a big risk activating them before he had finished the reprogramming.

They were both making decisions based on what they saw their responsibilities were and their own feelings. Rodney made his decision from a very human POV, ‘I am a brilliant scientist. I can do this. I can’t be the one to let her die.’ Sheppard from a more militaristic POV ‘I am in charge now. It is my responsibility to protect Atlantis and everyone’s life. I can’t be the one to do this to Weir (turn on the nanites when he didn’t know what they would do to her). I can understand both POV and I can see “right” in both POV’s. This was a no win situation – the decision not to reactivate the nanites and Weir dies, or the decision to reactivate the nanites and risk the nanites taking over which puts Atlantis, the people on board and Weir at risk. At this point, now that the nanites have been reactivated, as far as I know or as far as Rodney or Sheppard knows it could go either way – they either remain dormant or they take over Weir or something in between.

Would it have been murder to let Weir die?
This brings up a very philosophical question and a subject that can be highly charged – How do does one decide to take one off life support and who gets to decide? And there are people who believe it is never “right” to remove life support.

As someone who has worked in critical care for over 12 years I have been frequently asked by family members whose loved ones are dying, “What should I do? Use artificial life support, choose risky, painful surgery, resuscitate or don’t resuscitate, what will happen if I do or what will happen if I don’t?” I usually tell them there is no wrong or right decision, that they can only make the best decision they feel they can based on what they know at the moment - because no one truly knows the full consequences of any decisions until much later. The advice we give is to think about what your loved one would have wanted, what their choice would be, because it is their life and since they cannot communicate what they would want for themselves you need to, by taking into account all that is going on, including your own feelings and their wishes.

This is an issue where I feel Sheppard was right, he not only took into account the welfare of Atlantis but also what Weir would want, and based on her statement to Teyla at the end, I think he was more on target. After all, she is the one who will ultimately live, die or pay the price for having the nanites reactivated.

Sorry if this was a bit long winded, but I think this is an interesting discussion. I just think that is it difficult to definitively say one was right or and the other is wrong - I think it comes down to what would have been the best decision for Atlantis and for Weir. And people may have different answers based upon whose POV they identify more with – Rodney’s or Sheppard’s.

[belanna30]

I have to agree with Eden again. John definitely knew what Elizabeth would or would not want in this certain situation and Rodney probably should have listened a little more.

Now, any repercussions of this can not be judged on Lifeline. This was a risk and even IF something good does come from it (I haven't seen Lifeline, so I can't speculate and don't want to) hopefully can we agree that they (Rodney and Keller) took a roll of the dice with this one. It could turn out badly just as easily as it could have turned out well. (Rodney isn't infallible. Remember Return II? Reprogramming Niam didn't work there.)

It's all in the writer's hands at this point as to the outcome, but there were definitely a lot of ways that this could have turned bad for Atlantis and Weir.

And to clarify, I was trying to think of ways to get rid of Repli-Weir for just plain-jane Weir and bring her back as a more "main" and well "normal" character. (Because I am a Weir fan and would love to have her in more than four episodes. I know that doesn't apply to 100% of SGA fandom, so my apologies to those of you who are happy about the change. I mean NO disrespect.)

[elbo]

There are several points made, that i want to comment:

1. 'the life support' issue. I think that this case is a little different regarding the effects: the nanites hadn't only the ability to mentain the patient in a comatose state but to actually 'restore' the pacient to her previous state. Do you sincerly belive that all the people will preffere death instead of having few microscopic machines, completly safe, in their brains, after suffering a severe/fatal injury?

2. Weir indeed said : "This was a bad decision" or "This was very risky", but not for a moment suggest the nanites to be shut down, which was possible at any moment, in 2 ways, one being a EM pulse. Sometime the desire to live goes beyond simple words that seem appropiate for a situation.

I think that whole this discussion is having place, because people do not trust Rodney that he can do what he says. Sheppard also don't trust him for that matter. There is no other explanation for it. You DO think that Rondney would lie, to save a friend, even if this puts in danger all the city, his friend or him included. Not even for a second stop to consider, that the heart played only one part of his conviction, and he actually knew what is doing and he can program some damn nanites to do a specific task. He is the one that change their entire base code.

We deal here with some kind of risk management. In fact the whole expedition is a bigger risk for a lot more of other people. Nobody put a nuke in the city yet, to eliminate any risk for replicators or Wraith finding their way to Earth. The difference here is that we deal with a risk that cannot be quantified: every people from few hundreds can present one day to a Wraith planet with the schematics for inter-galactic hyperdrive and the stelar location of Earth, from various human reasons, or somethingelse. You just blindly trust they won't, all few hundreds of them. Still one marine was kind enough to present a 'fake message' to Atlantis, in 'Vengance'. Well in 'Adrift', Rodney had the expertise to quantify that risk and deem it non-existent. Is like the Ancients puting failsafes in the replicator basecode, few command lines, which ELIMINATE the risk of hurting the Ancients. Why are we dancing around the ball but never touch it? The only risk that exist in this situation is the 'risk' that came from not understanding that the programming is based on a exact science, which is the mathematic, or distrust in Rodney's abilities.

Of course all this talk is more theoretic than practical. I'm not even considering the situation of Atlantis at that moment, in which we should have prayed for the replicators to came to us and give us the opportunity of another life boat, rather than 'safley' waiting to run out of air.

[Freekzilla]

Heh! I've been wanting Sheppard to beat the living doo-doo out of Rodney for a long time now. McKay has no business being in charge of a hot-dog stand let alone anything as important as Atlantis. He's an annoying arrogant jerk. I wouldn't be suprized if Sheppard has had to work overtime to keep other people from shooting McKay.

I think that Rodney reactivated the nanites for many possible reasons. One, because subconsciencely he knows that he's not cut out to be a leader. Two, because he's afraid the person that would replace Weir wouldn't be as lenient. Three, because he's so arrogant and self indulgent he thought he was the only intelligent person around so he had to make the decision. Four, because he already had lost a friend (Beckett), one of his few friends, and didn't want to lose another.

It's probably a combination of all of them. Still though, he disobeyed orders. He deserves to get punished, and maybe even a little quiet time in the corner.

[elbo]

Five, he was always hating Sheppard for his hair.

[Klenotka]

Heh! I've been wanting Sheppard to beat the living doo-doo out of Rodney for a long time now. McKay has no business being in charge of a hot-dog stand let alone anything as important as Atlantis. He's an annoying arrogant jerk. I wouldn't be suprized if Sheppard has had to work overtime to keep other people from shooting McKay.

I think that Rodney reactivated the nanites for many possible reasons. One, because subconsciencely he knows that he's not cut out to be a leader. Two, because he's afraid the person that would replace Weir wouldn't be as lenient. Three, because he's so arrogant and self indulgent he thought he was the only intelligent person around so he had to make the decision. Four, because he already had lost a friend (Beckett), one of his few friends, and didn't want to lose another.

It's probably a combination of all of them. Still though, he disobeyed orders. He deserves to get punished, and maybe even a little quiet time in the corner.

wth? Sheppard went for a walk, to be a hero and left whole Atlantis in hands of Rodney. Rodney, who made repairs, tried to reprogramme the nanites and actually was in command of whole city for some time...too much for one person, isn´t it? Why Sheppard didn´t send Lorne? Where was Lorne anyway? Lorne should have been there to "play hero" and let Sheppard in command. Well, Sheppard shouldn´t be in command of anything anyway. I know that lots of people haven´t seen Lifeline yet, but Sheppard was there so annoying that I wanted to kick him. He is acting like a jerk many times. "Come on McKay" "move McKay", "do a miracle in two seconds, McKay"...and so on.
I think Rodney made this decision how he felt to do. He is a scientist and Elizabeth´s friend first. And Sheppard told him "when you are sure they won´t send a message", and he was.
I mean, Ronon is acting like an idiot in most of S2, isn´t listening orders, Teyla and Rodney both argue with Sheppard. Sheppard has no authority, and now he wonders that he even can´t handle the situation. Part of the guilt should be at him, too. He left, during crisis, somewhere, where his presence wasn´t necessary and even didn´t say who should be in command!
So, as you see, I completely disagree.

Why do we solve this? Is anywhere here a section about how Sheppard disobeyed orders? (few times?) In "old times" of SG1 it was "IN" to disobey, now we have to talk and critizise everything and blame for most of the "bad" things McKay, which is also very "IN" now. What do people want? On one hand they say that he is a selfish egoistic jerk, and when he makes something so obviously unselfish and from love to some person, they want him to be punished.
I simply don´t understand that. I really don´t.

[elbo]

Few very good points. I already stated somewhere that i think Sheppard is over-used. Nothing wrong with him, the poor guy, but the writers are exagerating with the classical uber-action-hero routine.

Unfortunately Lorne was on Apollo and they had to used what they had. Still i think that they should develop a mini-action-guy for situations like these. I guess that they will have a action-girl now, Sam.

I still belive Rodney did the right thing, i would have done the same thing, friend or not, not wanting a murder on my constience. Of course if this do not put the city in danger, which we have all ther reasons to take it as a fact.

[Cautious Explorer]

wth? Sheppard went for a walk, to be a hero and left whole Atlantis in hands of Rodney. Rodney, who made repairs, tried to reprogramme the nanites and actually was in command of whole city for some time...too much for one person, isn´t it?

When did Sheppard turn command over to Rodney? Sheppard was still in the city, just outside the shield. He was never out of radio contact. And I don't recall Rodney making any effort at all to make contact with Sheppard before jumping in to use the nanites on Weir. Even if Sheppard had turned control over to Rodney temporarily, he made his intentions regarding the nanites very clear. Rodney deliberately went against those wishes without any effort whatsoever to advise Sheppard of what he was going to do.

Why Sheppard didn´t send Lorne? Where was Lorne anyway? Lorne should have been there to "play hero" and let Sheppard in command.

Lorne was on the Apollo.

Well, Sheppard shouldn´t be in command of anything anyway. I know that lots of people haven´t seen Lifeline yet, but Sheppard was there so annoying that I wanted to kick him.

No, a lot of people have not seen Lifeline, so it might be better not to reference it here or to at least put your thoughts in spoiler tags out of courtesy.

He is acting like a jerk many times. "Come on McKay" "move McKay", "make a miracle in two seconds, McKay"...and so on.
I think Rodney made this decision how he felt to do. He is a scientist and Elizabeth´s friend first. And Sheppard told him "when you are sure they won´t send a message", and he was.

Was he sure? He told Keller he wasn't ready yet.

I mean, Ronon is acting like idiot in most of S2, isn´t listening orders, Teyla and Rodney both argue with Sheppard. Sheppard has no authority, and now he wonders that he even can´t handle the situation. Part of the guilt should be at him, too. He left, during crisis, somewhere, where his presence wasn´t necessary and even didn´t say who should be in command!

Do you think Rodney has the right to expect Zelenka and the rest of his staff to follow his directions? Maybe they should all ignore Rodney and do as they please, since Rodney doesn't listen to anyone. Maybe everyone on Atlantis should do whatever they feel is best, regardless of any command structure.

So, as you see, I completely disagree.

Why do we solve this? Is anywhere here a section about how Sheppard disobeyed orders? (few times?) In "old times" of SG1 it was "IN" to disobey, now we have to talk and critizise everything and blame for most of the "bad" things McKay, is also very "IN" now. What do people want? On one hand they say that he is a selfish egoistic jerk, and when he makes something so obviously unselfish and from love to some person, they want him to be punished.
I simply don´t understand that. I really don´t.

I'm willing to bet if you look at viewer comments regarding Hot Zone, you'll see more than a few comments criticizing Sheppard for disobeying Weir's orders. In this particular instance it was Rodney who ignored a direct order and endangered the city.

I don't disagree that Rodney's actions towards Weir were unselfish, but by ignoring Sheppard's order he endangered Teyla, Ronon, Zelenka and every other person in the city.

[VSS]

<snip>

Would it have been murder to let Weir die?
This brings up a very philosophical question and a subject that can be highly charged – How do does one decide to take one off life support and who gets to decide? And there are people who believe it is never “right” to remove life support.

As someone who has worked in critical care for over 12 years I have been frequently asked by family members whose loved ones are dying, “What should I do? Use artificial life support, choose risky, painful surgery, resuscitate or don’t resuscitate, what will happen if I do or what will happen if I don’t?” I usually tell them there is no wrong or right decision, that they can only make the best decision they feel they can based on what they know at the moment - because no one truly knows the full consequences of any decisions until much later. The advice we give is to think about what your loved one would have wanted, what their choice would be, because it is their life and since they cannot communicate what they would want for themselves you need to, by taking into account all that is going on, including your own feelings and their wishes.

This is an issue where I feel Sheppard was right, he not only took into account the welfare of Atlantis but also what Weir would want, and based on her statement to Teyla at the end, I think he was more on target. After all, she is the one who will ultimately live, die or pay the price for having the nanites reactivated.

<snip>

I agree with your point completely. While Rodney says the nanites are under control, when Elizabeth awoke, she clearly was unhappy with what had been done. We are not, in fact, sure that the nanites are "completely safe". And, even if they are, it is not up to others to impose their definition of what constitutes life, or health, on another person. This is a widely-accepted tenet of medical ethics. I have seen people die for want of a simple blood transfusion because of their religious beliefs. I don't see how not wanting reactivated nanites is somehow less logical than that, from Elizabeth's point of view. It really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.

As a person in health care, EdenSG, you know that many times family and friends will want everything to be done, no matter how slim the chances or horrible the outcome. They often do not do what the patient would want, or they don't do it until the medical staff sits down and goes over the situation repetitively. Because they are thinking about their own loss, which is a natural thing to do, but which doesn't help the patient. I think that's what McKay was doing, while Shep truly was thinking about what Elizabeth would want. And he would probably know. In Entity Jack and Janet Frasier both knew Sam had a living will. People in dangerous situations usually do. It is logical that Weir would have shared that information with Shep.

[Klenotka]

When did Sheppard turn command over to Rodney? Sheppard was still in the city, just outside the shield. He was never out of radio contact. And I don't recall Rodney making any effort at all to make contact with Sheppard before jumping in to use the nanites on Weir. Even if Sheppard had turned control over to Rodney temporarily, he made his intentions regarding the nanites very clear. Rodney deliberately went against those wishes without any effort whatsoever to advise Sheppard of what he was going to do.

The point is, that he didn´t turn the command. He left, told Rodney unclear instruction like "if you are sure" and left. And he told him to be sure about the nanintes not contacting the others Replicators, not that he shouldn´t activate them at all. He left without leaving instructions. What if he would die outside? Then the city would be in hands of Rodney and bunch of scientists. As a temporal commander, he had no place outside, he should have stayed inside. He probably wouldn´t like it but it is the way it is. Leave the city in such state was very irresponsible from him.

Lorne was on the Apollo.

I didn´t know that. But I am sure there are many other soldiers in Atlantis who could have done it.

No, a lot of people have not seen Lifeline, so it might be better not to reference it here or to at least put your thoughts in spoiler tags out of courtesy.

Sorry, I put this wrong. I meant that Sheppard was acting like a jerk even before. And this his sometimes blind faith to McKay ("McKay, you have twenty seconds before we die unless you fix it") coliding with obvious distrust when McKay fails, is really annoying.

Was he sure? He told Keller he wasn't ready yet.

I think he told her that he isn´t sure about switching off the nanites again after they would be done with healing of Elizabeth´s brain. He said that he is sure that they won´t contact other Replicators.

Do you think Rodney has the right to expect Zelenka and the rest of his staff to follow his directions? Maybe they should all ignore Rodney and do as they please, since Rodney doesn't listen to anyone. Maybe everyone on Atlantis should do whatever they feel is best, regardless of any command structure.

And aren´t they doing this already? In Atlantis is such havoc in command that I wouldn´t be suprised if Teyla would be in command of the city It´s obvious that nobody is listening. You can see how Elizabeth didn´t have respect from the beginning. And when she did later, she was very influenced by Sheppard who has looked into her eyes and she went and did exactly what he wanted. You can see it in Sheppard´s team, where they are arguing instead of running (Vengeance is a good example). So I think some structure isn´t really important.

I'm willing to bet if you look at viewer comments regarding Hot Zone, you'll see more than a few comments criticizing Sheppard for disobeying Weir's orders. In this particular instance it was Rodney who ignored a direct order and endangered the city.

Well, yeah, but it was when? Two years ago?

I don't disagree that Rodney's actions towards Weir were unselfish, but by ignoring Sheppard's order he endangered Teyla, Ronon, Zelenka and every other person in the city.

...and if he weren´t unselfish and decided not to help Elizabeth, people would call him selfish and arrogant jerk and that Elizabeth´s death is his fault (if she would die). So no real option here.

People critisize his decision, but how do we know how we would react? He isn´t a soldier, he reacted as normal human being worried for a friend. That´s all, and I would take that this way.
And punish him? When they didn´t do it for 10 years in SG1 and 3 in SGA, why start now? And when, technically, it was very confused situation, without clear orders and under pressure.

[Mitchell82]

Of course Sheppard was already suited up to go out into space at the time, so not a lot he could do right then. Great timing.

I'm not sure the apology should have been accepted so easily either. Sure, in the middle of an emergency situation is not the time to dwell on grudges, but I think there should be some consequences. It would have made more sense for Sheppard to tell McKay they'd deal with it later.

To paraphrase Han Solo "Easy?! You call that easy?!" It wasnt easy nor 100% accepted. He was still very cold and frustrated which IMO was realistic.