McKay, Weir, Shep, and the nanites

[VSS]

actually, in a situation like that, where the security of the Atlantis base and, possibly, earth is at stake, Sheppard, as acting base commander, has the authority to override the chief medical officer's decisions in the interest of base security...

and yes, Sheppard was base commander, not Weir, and not McKay...

Weir was out of commission and since Atlantis was under seige and in an active state of war with the Asurans, authority would fall to Sheppard who should have established martial law in the city...

Okay, I can agree with that. My beef is the interaction between McKay and Keller. That's where Keller failed. By acting on incomplete information, she failed to act in the best interests of her patient. She let McKay roll right over her.

[gebtkd]

Okay, I can agree with that. My beef is the interaction between McKay and Keller. That's where Keller failed. By acting on incomplete information, she failed to act in the best interests of her patient. She let McKay roll right over her.

Were you watching the same show? She knew exactly what she was asking Rodney. She read the report from Carson and I think everybody seem to forget that Keller has been on Atlantis this whole time. She did not appear out of thin air. In First Strike that was made clear, so she is not the naive new arrival from earth. Second, Rodney did not roll over her. She told him time was running out and he acted on what she was telling him. He obviously did not want Weir to die and was confident that he neutralized the nanites. Again, this tread is pointless. In my opinion, Sheppard should have been reprimanded several times for going against orders in past episodes, but because it's Sheppard it's o.k. and it's not when it's Rodney. Again, double standard, obviously this tread is written by Sheppard's fan who are not looking at this objectively. Sheppard has made several bad decisions in the past, like McKay, like Weir, that's what make the show interesting, they are human and they do make mistakes and learn from them. That's why I was so concerned about having Carter on the show because miss perfect never makes mistakes. That's not what the show need, it needs to continue to show that this people are totally out of their elements and although they have learned through experience how to deal with certain things, they still have a lot more to learn from the Pegasus galaxy.

[Trek_Girl42]

I thought the apology was fine, I kind of took Sheppard's quick acceptance as how Sheppard didn't want Weir to die either or anything...no one on Atlantis did, hence the extreme measures to save her. There was a way to save Weir but they were not willing to do it only because they were unsure about the nanites contacting the Asurans and so on....and no one knew for sure (unless you count Shep) until the nanites were already activated and Weir was back that her wishes would have been against it. Sheppard was right about Weir, but how was McKay suppose to know that...how was anyone suppose to know 100% without her telling them (which she hadn't) that was her wishes.

Plus, by the time McKay gave the apology to Shep about reactivating the nanites it was already too late (I believe) for the hyperdrive to work- so it's not like they could have gone anywhere anyways. Would they rather let her die and then they all would have died or save her and deal with whatever happens next?

I really liked the apology- did he absolutely have to? No. But I would have been unhappy if he hadn't. Mckay's a good guy, and when it comes down to the really important moments and the big stuff, he apologises, he admits things he wouldn't otherwise say, he shows his caring side. From an unemotional perspective he made a huge mistake (I think) in disobeying Sheppard's orders. But then again, I'd probably have done the exact same thing Mckay did, if I had that much confidence in myself. Mckay apologises because he wants things to be okay between them, even if they disagreed, because that's needed in their situation. This was Mckay's way of communicating, "I disobeyed you this time, but I still respect you". I think Sheppard is still going to be pretty upset with Mckay for disobeying his orders, but that apology was the opening for them not to let it set a rift. If it hadn't happened, there would be all sorts of questions over Sheppard's leadership, Sheppard lets people walk after disobeying orders blah blah blah, this is a bit of an out. We can't forget that Mckay put Sheppard in a position of almost having to give the order to kill Weir. So as a good person, he owed that apology, even if he didn't need to give it.

[garhkal]

it does seem like McCay has cooled off his normal tactless self since Tao.. and i see his quickness to aplogise to shep as sign of that.

[Lauriel]

it does seem like McCay has cooled off his normal tactless self since Tao.. and i see his quickness to aplogise to shep as sign of that.

And the emotional aspects of his decision in the first place. He willingly made the decision and overrode Sheps preexisting order because he cared for Elizabeth and didn't want her to die. His commitment to his emotions rather than his logic/science views marks this change as well, IMO.

[IrishPisano]

And the emotional aspects of his decision in the first place. He willingly made the decision and overrode Sheps preexisting order because he cared for Elizabeth and didn't want her to die. His commitment to his emotions rather than his logic/science views marks this change as well, IMO.

i felt the apology was only half felt from McKay... and i'm pretty sure, though i don't like it, that we won't see any real after effects of the Rodney-Sheppard incident...

what astounds me, though, is mckay's sheer inability to know his own limitations, especially in a situation like this... they're talking about reprogramming ASURAN nanites... not replicators, not asgard tech, but ASURAN tech... somewhere deep down i'm pretty sure that mckay knew that he could not be 100% positive, but his ego and desire to be smartest and right forced his hand... and this is kind of glossed over...

it would be nice if the nanites are reactivated by the asurans, weir turns into Picard-Locutus, atlantis is compromised, and McKay is faced, finally, with the realization that he is not always right... and he actually comes to terms with it...

but i think it would take something more than this happening to weir to really wake him up, maybe if his ego-ineptitude harms carter or his sister we'll see it happen...

and it has to happen otherwise his character will not have changed and that, literarily speaking, is not good...

[Lauriel]

I agree about his ego - but that has been inherent in his character since the very beginning. However, I feel in this circumstance it was his care for Wier that was driving him, not his ego or desire to prove himself right. However, his overconfidence in these areas does leave room for an interesting plot regarding Wier's future.

[Nitegate]

I do. Or at least had him locked up. Would've been more interesting.

yeah they should lock him up for caring about a friends life and while the city is ready to lose their shield in the vast of space.

[Trek_Girl42]

And the emotional aspects of his decision in the first place. He willingly made the decision and overrode Sheps preexisting order because he cared for Elizabeth and didn't want her to die. His commitment to his emotions rather than his logic/science views marks this change as well, IMO.

I like this evolution for Mckay- he can't be completely insulting all the time, and with the way he is, the moment when he does go out on a limb and make emotional pronouncements when faced with death, they actually have resounding impact. He's an absolute jerk to all these people, but it doesn't mean that he doesn't care about them! And he'll go back to being condescending next week. The important thing is that he gets these moments- it shows why his team puts up with him, and why they do like him, as much as he drives them nuts. I also think his actions in this ep very much stem from "Tao of Rodney" when Weir was trying so hard to persuade him to ascend. This is very much a reversal of that. As certain as he is of himself, I don't think that he'd have taken the same risk a couple of seasons ago, I think he would have agreed with Sheppard; it's some nice character growth.

[Lauriel]

I like this evolution for Mckay- he can't be completely insulting all the time, and with the way he is, the moment when he does go out on a limb and make emotional pronouncements when faced with death, they actually have resounding impact. He's an absolute jerk to all these people, but it doesn't mean that he doesn't care about them! And he'll go back to being condescending next week. The important thing is that he gets these moments- it shows why his team puts up with him, and why they do like him, as much as he drives them nuts. I also think his actions in this ep very much stem from "Tao of Rodney" when Weir was trying so hard to persuade him to ascend. This is very much a reversal of that. As certain as he is of himself, I don't think that he'd have taken the same risk a couple of seasons ago, I think he would have agreed with Sheppard; it's some nice character growth.

Bingo! Well said. I can't green you, so have some mental green. I loved that you pointed out that this is one of the reasons why his team accept him as a friend and teammate, not just put up with him for his abilities. These moments of caring and protecting McKay really show the his heart, as do the occasional vulnerable moments we see.

[Willow'sCat]

I can't believe there is a tread about this. Talk about double standard.
How many times, Sheppard has disobeyed Weir instruction to save one person. He has always been a loose cannon, Mister I follow my own rule, but has there been a tread about disciplinary action against Sheppard? Of course not, Weir always came back as the bad one, She was wrong and he was right. Don't get me wrong, I like Sheppard, and it was funny to see that he was the voice of reason and Rodney was the loose cannon, however, John & Rodney were the leaders at the time and needed to show that they were working together. Also, by accepting Rodney's apology, I believe Sheppard proved that he wasn't completely against the plan. He does trust Rodney. I also think people should wait until Lifeline to see the development of the story. Reactivating the nanite could have an impact on the storyline. Everyone is always pointing Rodney's mistakes, but he is not the only one who has made them, however, nobody else ever get that thrown back in their faces. Whooping boy again, the guy is the one keeping them from all dying right now and he came up with the idea of not only the hyperdrive for the jumper but also going to steal the ZPM from the Asurans. Give the guy a break.

I am in mostly agreement with you. I don't buy Sheppard's acceptance of the apology, he looked grumpy to me but yeah funny I thought McKay was third in charge so surely he had every right to try this, and as you say Sheppard has disobeyed so many direct order in the past anyway.... So this just came off as incredibly hypocritical of Sheppard.

Bottom line; McKay was trying to save his leader, not trying to bake a fraking cake! He took it seriously, he wouldn't have tried it if he really hadn't believed it would work... it did work

Unlike a little thing in season 2/3 with Sheppard and Carson and the retro virus

McKay is not the bad guy here. And to me he has always shown he cares, why some are surprised is beyond me... I couldn't have him as my fave character if I didn't think he had compassion and understanding... he just hides it better then say Teyla.

[bluealien]

I am in mostly agreement with you. I don't buy Sheppard's acceptance of the apology, he looked grumpy to me but yeah funny I thought McKay was third in charge so surely he had every right to try this, and as you say Sheppard has disobeyed so many direct order in the past anyway.... So this just came off as incredibly hypocritical of Sheppard.

Bottom line; McKay was trying to save his leader, not trying to bake a fraking cake! He took it seriously, he wouldn't have tried it if he really hadn't believed it would work... it did work

Unlike a little thing in season 2/3 with Sheppard and Carson and the retro virus

McKay is not the bad guy here. And to me he has always shown he cares, why some are surprised is beyond me... I couldn't have him as my fave character if I didn't think he had compassion and understanding... he just hides it better then say Teyla.

I don't think anyone disagrees that Rodney doesn't care but he let his emotions get in the way. It was very noble that he wanted to save Weir but at the same time he was putting the lives of the entire expedition in danger. I don't see anything hypocritical in Sheppards actions.. He was the base commander and had every right to expect Rodney to follow his orders. As to Sheppard disobying orders in the past.. in Afghanistan he risked only his own life to save his friend... not anyone elses. In Hot Zone he did what he did to save the entire expedition.. as he didnt fully trust Weirs action at that time. In the Return he risked only his own life to save Atlantis... his team were there of their own free will. In The Ark, again Sheppard only risked his own life to save Teyla... so these are all very different to Rodneys situation.

Rodney's confidence that he can work miracles with ancient/alien technology has been tested before .. ie Trinity.. and as Sheppard knows ... nothing is guaranteed when it comes to operating alien technology, so Rodney could never be sure that he could prevent Weir from sending a signal to the rest of the Asurans and that is why Sheppard didn't want Rodney to re-activate the nanites, and was so angry at him when he did.

[VSS]

Were you watching the same show? She knew exactly what she was asking Rodney. She read the report from Carson and I think everybody seem to forget that Keller has been on Atlantis this whole time. She did not appear out of thin air. In First Strike that was made clear, so she is not the naive new arrival from earth. Second, Rodney did not roll over her. She told him time was running out and he acted on what she was telling him. He obviously did not want Weir to die and was confident that he neutralized the nanites. Again, this tread is pointless. In my opinion, Sheppard should have been reprimanded several times for going against orders in past episodes, but because it's Sheppard it's o.k. and it's not when it's Rodney. Again, double standard, obviously this tread is written by Sheppard's fan who are not looking at this objectively. Sheppard has made several bad decisions in the past, like McKay, like Weir, that's what make the show interesting, they are human and they do make mistakes and learn from them. That's why I was so concerned about having Carter on the show because miss perfect never makes mistakes. That's not what the show need, it needs to continue to show that this people are totally out of their elements and although they have learned through experience how to deal with certain things, they still have a lot more to learn from the Pegasus galaxy.

It's unnecessary to be rude. I'm quite certain of the TV program I watched on Friday night. And yes, I am aware Keller didn't just get off the boat, but she wasn't in charge when Weir got the nanites in the first place. What would Beckett have done? The bottom line is, it was her decision to make, not McKay's. She is the doctor, not McKay. She could have stopped him and she didn't. So my point remains the same. It's Kellers fault Weir's in the shape she's in. Sheppard wasn't even around when the decision was made. Whether or not McKay should be reprimanded is beside the point, to me. He was doing what McKay does, but Keller wasn't doing what she should have.

[elbo]

I don't see how Rodney was wrong to reactivate the nanites. Sheppard asked him if he was sure he can control the nanites. Well he was! What is the problem? Sheppard do not have such deep scientific expertise and he must trust the expertise of one of the finest scientist we have.

There was no specific order of Sheppard, to not pursue this solution, but just an unfinished discussion, which left the door open, if Rodney is able to programm the nanites in such way to not connect the Asuran colective. Then a time constrain decision, when there wasn't phisicaly thhe time for a meatphisical-scientific debate trough radio between Rodney and Shepp.

About 'Lifeline':

Spoiler:

The nanites are behaving in Rodney's programming; more the Rodney's decision is the one that make the mission possible in the first place.

At the 'Adrift' moment and the Atlantis situation, we have actualy more to gain from the replicators than what they could have gained for us.

And before consider Rodney recless in 'Adrift', consider that Sheppard aproove a similar mission in 'Lifeline', which could have ended with much more damage than Atlantis being destroyed.

But recless do not mean necesarely bad. If they would have played 100% safe, they will all be dead right now, in tha vacuum.

Remember that SG series are based on both following orders and sometimes breaking them. There is absolutely no character to not at least once broke an order. And who decide when a order can be broken? The character do, regarding the circumstances.

I still belive that in this case we deal more with expoiting a order, than with breaking it.

[Cautious Explorer]

I don't see how Rodney was wrong to reactivate the nanites. Sheppard asked him if he was sure he can control the nanites. Well he was! What is the problem? Sheppard do not have such deep scientific expertise and he must trust the expertise of one of the finest scientist we have.

There was no specific order of Sheppard, to not pursue this solution, but just an unfinished discussion, which left the door open, if Rodney is able to programm the nanites in such way to not connect the Asuran colective. Then a time constrain decision, when there wasn't phisicaly thhe time for a meatphisical-scientific debate trough radio between Rodney and Shepp.

About 'Lifeline':

Spoiler:

The nanites are behaving in Rodney's programming; more the Rodney's decision is the one that make the mission possible in the first place.

At the 'Adrift' moment and the Atlantis situation, we have actualy more to gain from the replicators than what they could have gained for us.

And before consider Rodney recless in 'Adrift', consider that Sheppard aproove a similar mission in 'Lifeline', which could have ended with much more damage than Atlantis being destroyed.

But recless do not mean necesarely bad. If they would have played 100% safe, they will all be dead right now, in tha vacuum.

Remember that SG series are based on both following orders and sometimes breaking them. There is absolutely no character to not at least once broke an order. And who decide when a order can be broken? The character do, regarding the circumstances.

I still belive that in this case we deal more with expoiting a order, than with breaking it.

Which way was it, an open-ended conversation or exploiting an order? Can't be both.

IMO Sheppard ordered McKay not to do it. McKay pushed and Sheppard ended the conversation. Leaving the answer as "no" until the conversation was resumed at a later date and McKay could assure Sheppard that activating the nanites would not be a security risk to Atlantis.

McKay's guilty reaction when Sheppard realized what he had done, makes it very clear that McKay took it as an order -- not just a dropped conversation.