Why are the Asurans a threat to Earth?

[rarocks24]

They're Asurans, not Replicators. I'm getting tired of the writers having the characters call them Replicators.

Not disagreeing with you there.

Prior to "First Strike," all we did was blow up a city ship that was going to either destroy or capture Atlantis. Atlantis had good reason to destroy that city ship, so up to that point, Atlantis had room to negotiate for peace.

They did, and negotiations failed. The Asurans launched in their ship and intended to destroy Atlantis. It failed.

Negotiating doesn't involve blatantly giving away military strategy. You call up Asuras, tell them that you're sorry you blew up their city ship, remind them that you're not the Ancients (they should know from the brain scans), and that you should be treated as a new power in the galaxy. If they want Atlantis, tough, they can build a dozen city ships if they want Atlantis that bad, good grief. If they still want to blow Atlantis to bits, then cut communication and send the Apollo.

Just ringing them up out of the blue and saying "hey, we don't want to be enemies, lets be friends, after you launch an operation to retake a city..." doesn't strike you the least bit suspicious, particularly after constant flybys of the Daedalus? The Asurans were setting up a trap, it was planned from the beginning.

If Atlantis was the target, bring back the other two ZPM's back to Atlantis, fully power the city, fly away to another planet, then give the other two ZPM's back to Earth. Walla, problem solved.

That depends on if the other two ZPMs still exist. Let's not forget, there are two SG1 movies in the works.

All of this was a direct consequence of the Apollo launching a pre-emptive strike on Asuras.

No, it was a direct consequence of imperfect timing and a failure to coordinate power supply. If the drilling platform had enough power to get Atlantis 90% percent of the way there in takeoff, then it should have been able to power the shield....if quite a few systems are cut.

How do we know that they weren't going after the Wraith due to their encounter with Weir's team? They would have gotten a major update on the Wraith situation. I would love to see it revealed that those 35 ships were built to go fight the Wraith, haha.

They sat on their asses for 10,000 years, somehow I don't think those 35 ships (which wouldn't be enough to destroy a fleet of 50 hives and 150 estimated cruisers) were meant for the Wraith.

Why go after Earth? If Atlantis is blown to bits, Earth no long has a reason to send teams to the Pegasus Galaxy. Remember "The Return" two-parter? Did they fly around Pegasus on the Daedalus? Nope, they came back to Earth. If ya blow up Atlantis, the Earthlings leave Pegasus for good, no need to exterminate them, just take away their reason for being in your galaxy. Simple, really. If ants are in your house, do you try to destroy all ants in your state/country? No, you just kill the ones in your house and perhaps any colonies in your yard.

So, we decide to let the Asurans destroy a city that's 3.2 million years old because we're too lazy to care about it, especially after fighting to defend the city with our own blood in hand to hand combat? How would you like to be the one 40 years from now saying, "hey, about 40 people died fighting to defend the city, but we just decided to blow it up because the Asurans were angry with us."

Would you still say that if they were ment to attack the Wraith? The Asurans could have been a major asset, but now we have a bigger threat than the Wraith. Nice.

As you said before, we had the Hot Zone virus. Somehow, I don't think they're so lovey dovey with humans. They pretty much want us all dead, Wraith and human alike. Hate to break it to ya.

[SmallTimePerson]

Just adding to Rarocks24's commnet, the whole fing series would be boring and eventually cut if the Lantians allied themselves with the replicators and defeated the wraith... seriously where would the story be?

[AltarLeader]

I think the Asurans wouldn't have attacked the wrath

Spoiler:

In lifeline rodney says that the command to attack the wrath was disabled before he reactivates it

because they don't preceive the wrath as a threat to their planet or their race, i think it was more like a plan to destroy Atlantis and Earth and set off to find any race that has the ANTI- Recpicator technology or at least kill all the Earthlings.............

[wise one]

well we are the onlt threat to the them since they know that earth has the means of destroying them and that they first undereastimated them since sending a cityship the size of manhattan and didnt return suggest something otherwise.

[Daniel Jackson]

They did, and negotiations failed. The Asurans launched in their ship and intended to destroy Atlantis. It failed.

It falied because the Apollo blasted the crap out of Asuras before negotiations were attempted.

Just ringing them up out of the blue and saying "hey, we don't want to be enemies, lets be friends, after you launch an operation to retake a city..." doesn't strike you the least bit suspicious, particularly after constant flybys of the Daedalus? The Asurans were setting up a trap, it was planned from the beginning.

First off, I never said it'd be that simple. The Asurans assumed Atlantis was a threat and sent their own city ship to take them by force. Weir's team destroyed it and has since not been back. If Atlantis was a threat, they would have retalliated. The very fact that they didn't shows that they were acting in self defence. Logic should suggest that the current residents of Atlantis aren't Asuran-haters like the Ancients were, thus a dialogue for peace should be possible. That's not to say the Asurans would agree to peace, but they should at least be willing to listen. As for the Daedalus spying on them... spying on someone isn't cause to go to war.

That depends on if the other two ZPMs still exist. Let's not forget, there are two SG1 movies in the works.

If the movies deplete the other two ZPM's, there should have been dialogue about that since the movies aren't out yet.

No, it was a direct consequence of imperfect timing and a failure to coordinate power supply. If the drilling platform had enough power to get Atlantis 90% percent of the way there in takeoff, then it should have been able to power the shield....if quite a few systems are cut.

If the Apollo didn't attack Asuras, Atlantis wouldn't have been attacked to begin with.

They sat on their asses for 10,000 years, somehow I don't think those 35 ships (which wouldn't be enough to destroy a fleet of 50 hives and 150 estimated cruisers) were meant for the Wraith.

Not only did they sit back for 10,000 years, they were also isolated. Weir's team effectively gave them new intelligence on the Wraith which could have prompted them to build a fleet of ships to fight the Wraith. While those ships go fighting, more could be built. Since they never bothered to ask, they'll never know unless AsurWeir finds out.

So, we decide to let the Asurans destroy a city that's 3.2 million years old because we're too lazy to care about it, especially after fighting to defend the city with our own blood in hand to hand combat? How would you like to be the one 40 years from now saying, "hey, about 40 people died fighting to defend the city, but we just decided to blow it up because the Asurans were angry with us."

Excuse me? I never said the Atlantis expedition should allow Asuras to blast Atlantis out of the water. Try reading what I said. I said, "If Atlantis is blown to bits..." In other words, if the Atlantis Expedition fails to save the city and the Asurans succeed in destroying Atlantis... the Asurans no longer have a need to go after Earth, because the Earthlings no longer have a reason for being in the Pegasus Galaxy.

As you said before, we had the Hot Zone virus. Somehow, I don't think they're so lovey dovey with humans. They pretty much want us all dead, Wraith and human alike. Hate to break it to ya.

They only want Humans dead, because it's easier to create a nanite virus that kills Humans everywhere, starving out the Wraith than it is to go fight the Wraith in ship-to-ship combat.

[Ltcolshepjumper]

I am aware Ronan shot and stunned Oberoth in Progeny. I do however, not recall anything in The Return Part 2 to say.

Spoiler:

Ronan also shot Oberoth again in Lifeline, but I am not sure that is a substantial event because RepliWeir was there.

When the Asurans were gaining on Ronon and Weir in The Return pt2, Ronon shot one of them with his personal weapon, which had no effect

Spoiler:

In Lifeline, the ARG had no effect.

[Sicktem]

*Note* Spoilers from Lifeline can be found in this reply.

It falied because the Apollo blasted the crap out of Asuras before negotiations were attempted.

He was refering to the negotations that went on in Progeny. Weir tried to trade with them - Orberoth pratically laughed at the thought that Humans would have anything they needed. Weir tried to get them to join the fight against the Wraith - Oberoth claimed they had plans to deal with them in their own time and did not need to explain anything to lesser beings. Weir asked for ZPMs - Oberoth claimed they need all of the ones that they have where as Niam previously said they have more than they need. Oberoth then got suspicious and probbed their minds, learning that Atlantis still existed and wanted to claim the city for Asurans since having it would be symbolic.

First off, I never said it'd be that simple. The Asurans assumed Atlantis was a threat and sent their own city ship to take them by force. Weir's team destroyed it and has since not been back. If Atlantis was a threat, they would have retalliated. The very fact that they didn't shows that they were acting in self defence. Logic should suggest that the current residents of Atlantis aren't Asuran-haters like the Ancients were, thus a dialogue for peace should be possible. That's not to say the Asurans would agree to peace, but they should at least be willing to listen. As for the Daedalus spying on them... spying on someone isn't cause to go to war.

The Asurans didn't see Atlantis as a threat. They repeatedly underestimated Humans until they realized they had weapons which could destroy them. At this point they just wanted to claim Atlantis for themselves. It was never an act of self defense as neither Humans nor the one city ship which Humans barely understood and couldn't power was remotely something they thought that they had to worry about in their arrogance. They had to learn the hard way that they couldn't see Humans as insignificant little amusements for some of their people.

If the movies deplete the other two ZPM's, there should have been dialogue about that since the movies aren't out yet.

Not really. Originally the movies were intended to come out around now so I can see why they didn't feel the need to repeat whatever they said in the early episodes of Atlantis. There's only so much screen time, so you can't keep going over plot points from Sg-1. Unfortunately the movies were pushed back so we're left with some confusion because of something that was out of the writer's hands.

If the Apollo didn't attack Asuras, Atlantis wouldn't have been attacked to begin with.

That's debatable.

Not only did they sit back for 10,000 years, they were also isolated. Weir's team effectively gave them new intelligence on the Wraith which could have prompted them to build a fleet of ships to fight the Wraith. While those ships go fighting, more could be built. Since they never bothered to ask, they'll never know unless AsurWeir finds out.

Weirs team only told them that the Wraith were a threat to Humans. Something they already knew. More so they were not completely isolated. Humans would come through the gate from time to time and I highly doubt not one thought to mention the Wraith were killing them. I also doubt that they couldn't have tracked some of the Wraith with long range sensors if they cared to. Anyway, it was established in Lifeline that they had no motivation and thus no intention of fighting the Wraith on their own so the point is moot.

They only want Humans dead, because it's easier to create a nanite virus that kills Humans everywhere, starving out the Wraith than it is to go fight the Wraith in ship-to-ship combat.

You keep saying this, but I think it comes from the belief that the nanite virus was originally intended to kill the Wraith by killing Humans and I seriously think that thinking is fundementally wrong. If the Ancients wanted to starve the Wraith there are a million ways they could've killed off Human populations throughout the galaxy. They didn't have to give up once the nanites evolved into replicators. However, we know that Humand DNA and Wraith DNA are very similar and we can reasonably assume that the nanite virus found in Atlantis was an early version of the nanites which now make up the Asurans. Therefore, it's also reasonable to think that the Ancients simply didn't perfect their programming at that point and only did so after they continued research on Asura. Thus it is not in the Asuran programming to kill off Humans. They only do so when they they feel threatened.

If the Asurans, themselves, wanted to destroy the Wraith by killing Humans they could've easily dialed every gate in the galaxy one by one and sent something through which would infect the Human populations with nanites as soon as they came across it. However, until Earth came along many of their population enjoyed talking with Humans who came through the Stargate and when they finally did get the motivation to kill the Wraith in Lifeline, they went after a Wraith homeworld first instead of a Human world so they could cut off the Wraith food source. They obviously have no problem with ship-to-ship battles and why should they since the Wraith do not have the numbers to even dent an organized fleet of Ancient warships.

[Liam Kincaid]

........


They only want Humans dead, because it's easier to create a nanite virus that kills Humans everywhere, starving out the Wraith than it is to go fight the Wraith in ship-to-ship combat.

Can't the Wraith feed off of anything besides humans? The Iratus bugs feed off lots of lifeforms, why not the Wraith. Killing humans to starve Wraith seems like a bad plan to me.

[tainor]

What if on their way to Earth, the Asurans meet the Ori. Do you think they would've fought. After all the Ori would think of them as opposition that has the potential to destroy their followers and they will try to fed them off.

I can see Adria breaking their link to nanites with a thought. The Asurans do have drones but the Ori motherships are powerful in their own right. It would of been one hell of a battle. Asumming all of this happens after the Shroud SG1 when the Supergate is active. And motherships can come easily.

I wish we got to see this maybe an uneasy alliance between Earth and the Ori could of been made or maybe the other way around The Asurans and Earth, but still the best case scenario for us was both of the to kill each other in the process, Asurans can rebuilt after after time and the Priors can creat new ships so this will be one long battle and we might just kill two birds with one stone?

[rarocks24]

Can't the Wraith feed off of anything besides humans? The Iratus bugs feed off lots of lifeforms, why not the Wraith. Killing humans to starve Wraith seems like a bad plan to me.

Nope, Col. Sheppard gave Steve a ton of things to try and keep him healthy, and none of them worked. The reason why the Iratus bug can feed off a ton of lifeforms, but the Wraith can't, is the significant amount of human DNA the iratus bug incorporated into it's genetic makeup to make the Wraith.

We're still not clear how the Wraith evolved to begin with. Everything we know about Wraith evolution is based partly on fact and partly on presumption.

That said, it would be interesting if the Wraith could feed off other primates, not just humans. But we really haven't encountered any other primate species in the Pegasus galaxy.

[Ltcolshepjumper]

What if on their way to Earth, the Asurans meet the Ori. Do you think they would've fought. After all the Ori would think of them as opposition that has the potential to destroy their followers and they will try to fed them off.

I can see Adria breaking their link to nanites with a thought. The Asurans do have drones but the Ori motherships are powerful in their own right. It would of been one hell of a battle. Asumming all of this happens after the Shroud SG1 when the Supergate is active. And motherships can come easily.

I wish we got to see this maybe an uneasy alliance between Earth and the Ori could of been made or maybe the other way around The Asurans and Earth, but still the best case scenario for us was both of the to kill each other in the process, Asurans can rebuilt after after time and the Priors can creat new ships so this will be one long battle and we might just kill two birds with one stone?

Spoiler:

By the time the Asurans build their fleet, the Ori are already gone

[Daniel Jackson]

[B]He was refering to the negotations that went on in Progeny. Weir tried to trade with them - Orberoth pratically laughed at the thought that Humans would have anything they needed. Weir tried to get them to join the fight against the Wraith - Oberoth claimed they had plans to deal with them in their own time and did not need to explain anything to lesser beings. Weir asked for ZPMs - Oberoth claimed they need all of the ones that they have where as Niam previously said they have more than they need. Oberoth then got suspicious and probbed their minds, learning that Atlantis still existed and wanted to claim the city for Asurans since having it would be symbolic.

I've seen "Progeny," but in "First Strike," when it was discovered that they were building ships, that was the time to open peace talks, namely telling them that they're not a threat. Yeah, they want Atlantis, but if they come for it again, they'll just fly away, and then Asuras won't know where to look for them. Besides, Asuras doesn't know if they've got more ZPM's since the "Progeny" encounter.

The Asurans didn't see Atlantis as a threat. They repeatedly underestimated Humans until they realized they had weapons which could destroy them. At this point they just wanted to claim Atlantis for themselves. It was never an act of self defense as neither Humans nor the one city ship which Humans barely understood and couldn't power was remotely something they thought that they had to worry about in their arrogance. They had to learn the hard way that they couldn't see Humans as insignificant little amusements for some of their people.

Ah, so you're saying it was "The Return, Part 2" encounter that lead the Asurans into thinking of Earthlings as a threat?

Not really. Originally the movies were intended to come out around now so I can see why they didn't feel the need to repeat whatever they said in the early episodes of Atlantis. There's only so much screen time, so you can't keep going over plot points from Sg-1. Unfortunately the movies were pushed back so we're left with some confusion because of something that was out of the writer's hands.

How is it out of the writer's hands? If the movies get delayed, you alter your episode scripts so they make sense.

That's debatable.

Oh, so it's just a coincidence that the satellite showed up just after Apollo blew up their ships?

Weirs team only told them that the Wraith were a threat to Humans. Something they already knew. More so they were not completely isolated. Humans would come through the gate from time to time and I highly doubt not one thought to mention the Wraith were killing them. I also doubt that they couldn't have tracked some of the Wraith with long range sensors if they cared to. Anyway, it was established in Lifeline that they had no motivation and thus no intention of fighting the Wraith on their own so the point is moot.

They would know everything that Weir, Sheppard, McKay, Ronan, and Teyla know about the Wraith due to the mind probe. Further, what are the chances that gate travelers would stumble across Asuras? As for the Asurans having no interest in fighting the Wraith, this was not known at the time of "First Strike," therefore it's not a moot point. Decissions need to be judged in the context of when they were made, not in the context of the aftermath.

You keep saying this, but I think it comes from the belief that the nanite virus was originally intended to kill the Wraith by killing Humans and I seriously think that thinking is fundementally wrong. If the Ancients wanted to starve the Wraith there are a million ways they could've killed off Human populations throughout the galaxy. They didn't have to give up once the nanites evolved into replicators. However, we know that Humand DNA and Wraith DNA are very similar and we can reasonably assume that the nanite virus found in Atlantis was an early version of the nanites which now make up the Asurans. Therefore, it's also reasonable to think that the Ancients simply didn't perfect their programming at that point and only did so after they continued research on Asura. Thus it is not in the Asuran programming to kill off Humans. They only do so when they they feel threatened.

The nanites were attacking Humans without the Ancient gene, it's clear that this must have been an Asuran weapon against the Wraith, kill all the non-Ancient Humans, and the Wraith starve to death. This would likely have been the reason why the Ancients whiped out the Asurans, the experiment went too far. This is all speculation, but it does make sense, no?

If the Asurans, themselves, wanted to destroy the Wraith by killing Humans they could've easily dialed every gate in the galaxy one by one and sent something through which would infect the Human populations with nanites as soon as they came across it. However, until Earth came along many of their population enjoyed talking with Humans who came through the Stargate and when they finally did get the motivation to kill the Wraith in Lifeline, they went after a Wraith homeworld first instead of a Human world so they could cut off the Wraith food source. They obviously have no problem with ship-to-ship battles and why should they since the Wraith do not have the numbers to even dent an organized fleet of Ancient warships.

If we go with my above theory, it's possible that the kill Humans with a nanite virus to starve the Wraith to death strategy was lost or abandoned after the Ancients nearly whiped them out.

[Ehecatl]

They threaten us over reasons because of spite and jealousy. "They see humans as the favorite child." While they themselves feel like unwanted step children. There was a potential to be allies at first, but their personalities are too irrational and aggressive much like the first human replicator of the milky way galaxy (Reese). I guess this flaw in their design was too difficult to fix.

[Sicktem]

I've seen "Progeny," but in "First Strike," when it was discovered that they were building ships, that was the time to open peace talks, namely telling them that they're not a threat. Yeah, they want Atlantis, but if they come for it again, they'll just fly away, and then Asuras won't know where to look for them. Besides, Asuras doesn't know if they've got more ZPM's since the "Progeny" encounter.

Possibly, but you don't want to accidently reveal that you know they are building ships, otherwise they might be prepared for your attack. Still, it would've been worth it to have the Apollo standing by to attack right after peace talks failed.

Anyway, the Asurans lost 2 ZPMs to them in the Return Part 2, so they actually would've assumed they could've flown away (they wouldn't have known that they would send them to Earth). It's possible that even with 3 ZPMs it's impossible to fly away while such strain is being put on the shields (it was impossible to keep the shield up at their current power level and they weren't even being fired upon at that point). Thus the Ancients couldn't escape from the Wraith fleet once they were bombarding the city's shields. Therefore, the plan to attack Atlantis with the gate weapon was probably solid since they didn't think that Humans would get the idea to use an asteriod to buy some time so they could lift off.

Ah, so you're saying it was "The Return, Part 2" encounter that lead the Asurans into thinking of Earthlings as a threat?

Yes, exactly. Up until then both of their plans involved taking Atlantis from the Humans and then not bothering with them ever again. All of the sudden they learn that these Humans have a weapon which can defeat them (a weapon brought over from Earth) and they're suddenly building a fleet.

How is it out of the writer's hands? If the movies get delayed, you alter your episode scripts so they make sense.

Because Adrift and Lifeline were filmed early this year when the plan was still to have the movies come out in the fall of 2007. They can't exactly reshoot scenes of the episode to include new information this late in the game.

Oh, so it's just a coincidence that the satellite showed up just after Apollo blew up their ships?

Not at all. The weapon absolutely showed up because the Apollo attacked their homeworld. What is debatable is if they would've attacked Atlantis before heading to Earth or perhaps left some ships behind to attack it at the same time.

They would know everything that Weir, Sheppard, McKay, Ronan, and Teyla know about the Wraith due to the mind probe. Further, what are the chances that gate travelers would stumble across Asuras?

Nope, they only know what they are thinking when they are probed for information. Thus they create scenarios in a victim's head so they will play out a scene that will get them that information. It's therefore unlikely that they learned anything concerning the Wraith.

Further, what are the chances that gate travelers would stumble across Asuras?

From Progeny:

OBEROTH: Many of our citizens are amused by the occasional visitor, such as yourselves, for a short time.

As for the Asurans having no interest in fighting the Wraith, this was not known at the time of "First Strike," therefore it's not a moot point. Decissions need to be judged in the context of when they were made, not in the context of the aftermath.

It just confimed what we already knew. The Asurans don't build a single warship that we know of in 10,000 years. They say they have a plan for the Wraith and will get to it in time at the same time they are claiming they are Ancients (Niam, however, said that the Wraith didn't concern them before this). Meanwhile, the only times the Asurans did branch out in the last 10,000 years (again, that we know of) was to tango with these Humans from Atlantis....I can't imagine why they thought they were headed for Earth. Sure, you can argue they should've tried to negotate, but to ask who the ships were for would've been a huge mistake as if you give any hint that you are aware of those ships your plan to take them out has a higher chance of failing.

The nanites were attacking Humans without the Ancient gene, it's clear that this must have been an Asuran weapon against the Wraith, kill all the non-Ancient Humans, and the Wraith starve to death. This would likely have been the reason why the Ancients whiped out the Asurans, the experiment went too far. This is all speculation, but it does make sense, no?

Again, the Ancients created those nanites. Therefore it's not an Asuran weapon. The Asurans were limited to the research outpost and were not allowed to run around the city of Atlantis using their labs (where the nanites were found). Therefore, it's clear that it was an Ancient weapon and since we know they were smart enough to do the bulk of their nanite research on Asuras, it's extremely likely that it was an early version of the nanites that the Ancients made. After realizing how dangerous they were, they moved the research to a different world and contained the early research to that one lab. They then figured out how to get them to attack the Wraith only. However, after they became sentient Human form creations the Ancients had to terminate the experiment (the Asurans have already established that the Ancients tried to wipe them out because of that).

The reason they weren't sure about who made the nanites in Hot Zone was because they never imagined the Ancients would've made a weapon to kill Humans and if it was just an early version of nanites that were designed to only kill the Wraith it would make sense as they are right that the Ancients would never do that. Even if you want to insist the Asurans created primitive versions of themselves to kill of Humans, though, how does that make sense when Lifeline tells us that they have no movitation to kill the Wraith?

If we go with my above theory, it's possible that the kill Humans with a nanite virus to starve the Wraith to death strategy was lost or abandoned after the Ancients nearly whiped them out.

Well, again, that would only make sense if the research was done on Asuras instead of Atlantis. Even so it's a bit silly since we know the Ancients created nanites to attack the Wraith and were surprised that they evolved into replicators. So why would the Asurans then make primitive versions of themselves to attack Humans when the nanites that formed them were already designed to attack the Wraith? It's counter productive - "We have a weapon that will elimitate the Wraith, but we need to modify it so it elimitates them indirectly instead." Meanwhile, they were trying to impress their creators at this point (offering a way to destroy Humans when you were designed to directly destroy the Wraith does not impress) and even today after they were scorned by them they have no desire to wipe out all Human life (they just want to protect themselves by getting rid of threats).

[SG13-NightOps]

Ah, so you're saying it was "The Return, Part 2" encounter that lead the Asurans into thinking of Earthlings as a threat?

Yes, Because in The Return pt 2 they learnt that the Earthlings had this handy dandy little weapon called the "Anti Replicator Gun" which could disintegrate a replicator in a second. Then they went and probed our favourite extra Woolsey, who would be full of information about the shiny "PWARW's" That the Asgard made and that we can get out little hands on something like that, destroying EVERY SINGLE ASURAN on the planet at the exact same time. Boom, End of Asuran 'life' as they know it, and the Earthlings dont even need to break a sweat.

If that is not a threat in your world, then I would love to know what would be...