How is SG1 "taking over"? (spoilers)

[prion]

i can no more see shep in an administrative role than i can see cameron. Neither character has been developed as 'even headed administrator'...they exist to be the action hero. And action heros don't tend to do much paperwork behind a desk. THe main reason it was believable for jack to make the transition from action hero to administrator was that jack was about 15 years older than cam and shep and was a step higher in rank and thus had spent several years merging leader adn administrator.

Nope, heroes don’t do paperwork Jack’s promotion and his being stuck behind a desk was very believable. That’s why a lot of folk aren’t so thrilled with the possibility of Carter going off-world if she’s the commander. She should be behind the desk, and if she does go off-world, it should only be in the capacity of negotiator. This all boils down to what the writers will do, and the writers haven’t proven to do the smartest plot moves…

[QUOTE=Skydiver;6780755
also, taking first strike into consideration, the ultra military 'let's kick their tushes before they can kick ours' is the attitude that's gotten us into the mess we're in. the last thing atlantis needs is a leader who shoots first and leads with full military bravado. (and it's also very possible that mitch pileggi didn't want to commit to 14 episodes...so if the actor doesn't want to do the job, the character s/he plays doesn't want to do the job) [/QUOTE]

Yes, unfortunately that attitude is why they’re so screwed at the end of season four. I just saw that and thought, eegads, what nitwit didn’t have the foresight to think ahead? Meanwhile, Mitch is a free agent, so to speak, as unless they offered him a regular role, he’ll go where the roles take him. Same with Kavan Smith.

Please, let's not go there shall we? Otherwise I can say that Weir wasn't appointed by the President because she was skillful, but rather she was appointed by Brad Wright and Rob Cooper because of....something.

Second, it took O'Neill 8 years to "settle down" enough to be "the man"; he said so himself. Shep has a long way to go before he can make decisions that would affect so many people and not let his emotion and recklessness get away from him.

Now, Caldwell, that's a much better choice. However, he's very stricly military and doesn't seem to respect the scientists as much as Carter does. If you want a leader who can mesh with both aspects of Atlantis, Carter is your girl.

Actually, we’ll see how Shep does as leader in “Adrift” (let’s hope they get to stay adrift for most of the episode and not get rescued, yawn, ten minutes in). I also think Shep does not want the command position, because he knows it will mean being stuck behind a desk, aka, no more flying puddlejumpers. Personally, I’d have preferred Caldwell but they went with an established sG1 character in order to draw over those viewers. If you’re going to militarize the base (which by putting a military person in charge, I dare say puts it under their command, unless military people are now taking paychecks from civilian agencies?), you might as well go with someone who’s had time in the Pegasus Galaxy.

Actually you are proving our point.

Er, ‘our’ point?

How about you do some research of your own on this complex subject of AF promotion? I can and will give you some references but I'll have to wait until tonight to dig them up for you. In the meantime why don't you ask the resident military man, he should be able to clarify the intricacies of senior rank promotions .

To put this in context, you inferred a wealth of reference, which I did ask you politely to please post, so please do so. I’ll wait for the requisite URLs, etc. ?

And yet you still haven't answered my question of how one character constitutes SG-1 taking over. Actually judging from what you've just said it's all about what you are afraid might happen in the future, so there's no actual evidence of SG-1 taking over yet.

I did explain. Just read the posts I already made. Of course nobody – you, me, etc.l– have empirical evidence to prove our points. Don’t be silly. This is a speculation thread and nobody will know anything, but we can offer our points, which many of us have done. But like Shadowmaat (think was in this thread) stated, no use repeating ourselves till we’re blue in the face.

I'm not assuming anything, and I haven't mentioned Prometheus so maybe you should go back and check what I did write. I commented on you seeming to have strange notions of what constitutes a command in the military.

I do stand corrected. It was agentdark who said. Many posts are beginning to look alike on this thread.

As to the rest, I have stated my opinions, so your “spouting generalities, incorrect facts and using faulty logic” is your opinion, not fact.

[mcbarr]

Why wasn't Sam put in charge of the SGC? It may have something to do with the fact that a Major General was already in that position

Indeed. And the same should apply to Atlantis.

LOL still trying to diminish the facts are we. "Why haven't we seen her in command at all" - open your eyes and rewatch Stargate and you'll discover the inaccuracy of this stance.
A year in command of SG-1 is brief?
"Perhaps in R&D at Area 51?" No perhaps about it.

IMO, Carter is not command material. She tried leading SG-1. Gave up. Then went to Area 51 to do some R&D, then was brought back to SG-1 as a regular soldier. Sorry, that's not a military leader to me.

The IOA can't make military appointments. They can try to use political pressure to influence the decision but they can't make the appointment.

Isn't that the same thing in the final analysis? Money rules, you know.

I disagree. I'd rather see Shep in charge of the primary team...

I think it would be interesting to see Sheppard replacing Dr. Weir as Atlantis' leader temporarily. It would develop the character, and it would be much better than an undue SG-1 interference. Lorne or someone else could replace Sheppard as team leader meanwhile.

As for promoting Caldwell, why does he need a promotion? Colonels are known to have quite large commands depending on their assignments and the original expedition only sent a Colonel in the first place. Maybe you see a reason for the flag rank but I don't.

Think: SGC was always led by Generals. Atlantis is as important to Earth as SGC. Then, if militarization is required, Atlantis should be led by a General. The original Atlantis expedition Colonel (and Sheppard) led Atlantis' military detachment while Dr. Weir led Atlantis. Carter and Caldwell currently don't have rank to lead Atlantis. They could take Sheppard's job, though.

Also promotion to Flag rank is very limited, I think it is way down around 1% of officers as opposed to 50% for Colonels. Hmmm actually as all the air force military for Stargate falls under one command I doubt that the Joint Chiefs would want too many Generals under one command especially as that command is supposed to be a secret. Generals are political appointments (as in nominated by the President and confirmed by the senate) so the need for a good cover is essential.

Sorry, it doesn't make sense. Stargate deals with the best of the best, doesn't it? So promotions are only natural there, no? Besides, appointments such as these are always political.

We haven't seen much of Caldwell or know what kind of experience he has. He could quite possibly be a good candidate for the job but I'd reserve judgement on that until I had more information. I like Mitch Pillegi and wouldn't mind seeing more of him but I wouldn't say that his character is the best choice without more info.

Without 10 years of info? Is that what you mean? Cause then everyone on SGA is unqualified for their jobs, and, as such, should be replaced by experienced SG-1 personnel.

Minds change.

And series get canned.

So is 1+1 = 2, doesn't mean it's relevant here.

1 + 1 = 2 is always relevant.

Such as?

IOA being JM/PM now.

Adding another brain to the mix never hurts, AND, she won't be the chief scientist; she'll be the base commander.

Well, sometimes it does. And being base commander means she'll be chief everything.

Also, the Legacy is there, sitting in the computer for people to decipher. It ain't so easy with Atlantis; everyday is a new adventure as the expedition discovers another Ancient thingy with a function that may not be automatically clear (i.e. Sunday); they'll need as many scientists there as possible to figure it all out.

That's why the research should be conducted on Earth by good scientists, not by Coombs, Felger and that WoW master. BTW, was there a serious scientist on SG-1 besides Sam Carter? Even McKay was portrayed badly there.

How temporary? A few days? Weeks? Months? I really doubt Shep can take that much IOA interfering. I know I wouldn't. Oh, and FYI, Shep is my second fav character on Atlantis; after McKay. Not all statements can be classified as "anti" or "pro"; the world is a lot more gray than that, thank you very much.

As soon as possible, so Atlantis could get back on track, but that won't happen for obvious reasons.

Not Sam Carter, and that's why she's perfect for the job.

I disagree. If Atlantis needs a military commander, put a military commander there, not a fake (my opinion).

10 years with SG1 not seasoned enough for you? 10 years of fighting the Goa'uld, the Replicators, and the Ori not qualification for a "war-time" leader?

Being a soldier for 10 years doesn't make you a good leader. You've got to have 10 years or more of command experience to be a "war-time" leader.

[Ltcolshepjumper]

So true. Carter may be a good scientist, soldier, team leader, and even a good base leader. However, she has NO experience as a WARTIME commander. If Atlantis is going to

Spoiler:

get into a war with the Asurans

then they someone with that type of experience. IMO, Carter is the least military-like of the Colonels featured in SG-1 and SGA. She is more civilian than military.

Actually you are proving our point. Atlantis is not your typical base of operations. Atlantis itself is not only offworld it isnt even in our own galaxy. Weir was a good leader but she fell short because of these reasons.
1. She had never been through the gate before and was only chosen because she was a savy negotiator.
2. She had no combat experience nor was she good at making tactical decisions.
3. She had limited scientific knolwedge.
She had alot of knowledge about Anceint tech but that's about it. Carter has all of that plus a multitude of other skills. Carter has more than enough skills to fulfill this position.

Fine, maybe OFF-BASE would make more sense to you? Either way, Carter has more experience in the action than out of the action.

[jenks]

Indeed. And the same should apply to Atlantis.

It does, a general isn't, or never has been in charge of Atlantis.

IMO, Carter is not command material. She tried leading SG-1. Gave up. Then went to Area 51 to do some R&D, then was brought back to SG-1 as a regular soldier. Sorry, that's not a military leader to me.

I agree, to an extent, but she's a lot more of a military leader than Weir.

I think it would be interesting to see Sheppard replacing Dr. Weir as Atlantis' leader temporarily. It would develop the character, and it would be much better than an undue SG-1 interference. Lorne or someone else could replace Sheppard as team leader meanwhile.

Sheppard doesn't want the job, not to mention the fact that Caldwell outranks him and we know that he does want the job.

Think: SGC was always led by Generals. Atlantis is as important to Earth as SGC. Then, if militarization is required, Atlantis should be led by a General. The original Atlantis expedition Colonel (and Sheppard) led Atlantis' military detachment while Dr. Weir led Atlantis. Carter and Caldwell currently don't have rank to lead Atlantis. They could take Sheppard's job, though.

Except Atlantis isn't as important to Earth and the SGC.

1 + 1 = 2 is always relevant.

No it's not.

IOA being JM/PM now.

By that logic every character in the show is JM/PM.

Being a soldier for 10 years doesn't make you a good leader. You've got to have 10 years or more of command experience to be a "war-time" leader.

If that's the case, then Weir should have been shipped back to Earth in the second season.

[RealmOfX]

To put this in context, you inferred a wealth of reference, which I did ask you politely to please post, so please do so. I’ll wait for the requisite URLs, etc. ?

I'm also waiting for your evidence.

And I'll repeat:
By the same token you could tell us your evidence for it's pushing it, along with a definition of "pushing it".

My suggestion for you to do your own research was so that you could understand a very complex subject and so that you would know the accuracy of your sources. But no biggie if you can't be bothered.

-----

Sam's promotion didn't happen in S10 therefore she has done her minimum 3 years and it is an in the zone promotion. As they have always portrayed her as an excellent officer with a lot of responsibility and in a front line position, it would not be unusual for her to be amongst the 50% of officers being promoted in the zone. There is no way that an "in the zone" promotion can in any way be deemed pushing it.

Here's an overview of Promotion Times and Promotion Rates for Promotions to O-2 through O-6.
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/promo...fficerprom.htm
O-2 - Lieutenant
O-3 - Captain
O-4 - Major
O-5 - Lt. Colonel
O-6 - Colonel

Here's the actual rules governing the process of Promotion of Active Duty List Officers to Colonel and below
http://usmilitary.about.com/gi/dynam...i36%2D2501.pdf

And here are links to a vast array of military regs (for your general reference)
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/afreg...egulations.htm

You'll need to seek your own reliable sources off the net as well for a complete picture.

[Ltcolshepjumper]

Either way, Carter still shouldn't get command of atlantis based on the mere fact that she's just been promoted to a Colonel and therefore has not had the type of command experience that an experienced, longtime colonel would have had. Carter being leader is not going to "militarize" the base. IT will be the same just more SG-1 baggage. And Carter has had no war experience. You can't consider conflict with the Goauld and the Ori "war." Maybe an undeclared war but definitely not full-out war. Col. Everett seemed like the most able to lead a base during wartime based on the Seige pt 3 alone. The problem is, TPTB don't know how to incorporate real war into a continual series.

[RealmOfX]

Either way, Carter still shouldn't get command of atlantis based on the mere fact that she's just been promoted to a Colonel and therefore has not had the type of command experience that an experienced, longtime colonel would have had. Carter being leader is not going to "militarize" the base. IT will be the same just more SG-1 baggage. And Carter has had no war experience. You can't consider conflict with the Goauld and the Ori "war." Maybe an undeclared war but definitely not full-out war. Col. Everett seemed like the most able to lead a base during wartime based on the Seige pt 3 alone. The problem is, TPTB don't know how to incorporate real war into a continual series.

ROFLMAO that has got to be the most lame way to try and discredit any military person's experience I have ever seen.

It doesn't count because it's an undeclared war!!!! ROFL

How about you go back and get your facts straight Carter does have war experience.

And who said that only war experience counts?? Or would that be another uninformed anonymous internet poster??

[jenks]

Either way, Carter still shouldn't get command of atlantis based on the mere fact that she's just been promoted to a Colonel and therefore has not had the type of command experience that an experienced, longtime colonel would have had. Carter being leader is not going to "militarize" the base. IT will be the same just more SG-1 baggage. And Carter has had no war experience. You can't consider conflict with the Goauld and the Ori "war." Maybe an undeclared war but definitely not full-out war. Col. Everett seemed like the most able to lead a base during wartime based on the Seige pt 3 alone. The problem is, TPTB don't know how to incorporate real war into a continual series.

It's a lot more of a war than what Atlantis has had to face.

[Ltcolshepjumper]

ROFLMAO that has got to be the most lame way to try and discredit any military person's experience I have ever seen.

It doesn't count because it's an undeclared war!!!! ROFL

How about you go back and get your facts straight Carter does have war experience.

And who said that only war experience counts?? Or would that be another uninformed anonymous internet poster??

Which wars? Did she fight in the first Persian Gulf War? Afganistan? Iraq? If I remember, she was studying the gate before the Stargate program and she was either going offworld exploring (and fighting skirmish battles w/ enemies) or stuck on base. Would that constitute war experience? And put my words into context. I never stated that a lack of war experience meant lack of ability to lead a base. What I said was a lack of command experience as a colonel meant a lack of experience compared to other, more experienced colonels. What I discredited was "wartime experience", not military experience.

[Cameron Mitchel]

I'm also waiting for your evidence.

And I'll repeat:
By the same token you could tell us your evidence for it's pushing it, along with a definition of "pushing it".

My suggestion for you to do your own research was so that you could understand a very complex subject and so that you would know the accuracy of your sources. But no biggie if you can't be bothered.

-----

Sam's promotion didn't happen in S10 therefore she has done her minimum 3 years and it is an in the zone promotion. As they have always portrayed her as an excellent officer with a lot of responsibility and in a front line position, it would not be unusual for her to be amongst the 50% of officers being promoted in the zone. There is no way that an "in the zone" promotion can in any way be deemed pushing it.

Here's an overview of Promotion Times and Promotion Rates for Promotions to O-2 through O-6.
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/promo...fficerprom.htm
O-2 - Lieutenant
O-3 - Captain
O-4 - Major
O-5 - Lt. Colonel
O-6 - Colonel

Here's the actual rules governing the process of Promotion of Active Duty List Officers to Colonel and below
http://usmilitary.about.com/gi/dynam...i36%2D2501.pdf

And here are links to a vast array of military regs (for your general reference)
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/afreg...egulations.htm

You'll need to seek your own reliable sources off the net as well for a complete picture.

Well, what is your point? So, since Carter's been a Lt. Colonel for 3 years, does she automatically deserve a promotion? I honestly don't know. Why Carter above anyone else, though? What about Reynolds? He's a lt. colonel (they called him colonel before). Does he not deserve a promotion, too? What about Mitchell? He was a lt. colonel in the fight over antarctica. If I'm correct the scene with Carter and the other military officers in the hospital in Avalon was him receiving the Congressional Medal of Honor. So, why not him too? The promotion was just to try to make it more believable that she's right for the new position, which she still isn't the best option. Now, she may deserve the promotion (along with other Lt. Colonels), but she isn't the perfect option for command of Atlantis. She hasn't been developed as a commanding officer, she hasn't been developed as a base commander. She hasn't been developed into a major (CO, base commander) commanding role or position. Season 8 wasn't her development into a CO. She tried. It didn't work out. There was no development. I saw no team dynamic in Season 8. It was the bridging gap b/w Seasons 7 and 9. The transition stage from the old to the new. In Season 9 the dynamic was brough back up, but not to where it was in Seasons 1-7. That's another topic for another thread, though.

[Cameron Mitchel]

Which wars? Did she fight in the first Persian Gulf War? Afganistan? Iraq? If I remember, she was studying the gate before the Stargate program and she was either going offworld exploring (and fighting skirmish battles w/ enemies) or stuck on base. Would that constitute war experience? And put my words into context. I never stated that a lack of war experience meant lack of ability to lead a base. What I said was a lack of command experience as a colonel meant a lack of experience compared to other, more experienced colonels. What I discredited was "wartime experience", not military experience.

To RealmOfX> ditto off of what Ltcolshepjumper said, plus this bit: Wartime experience as in

Spoiler:

the news of a possible Wraith war with the Asurans that Atlantis might take part in.

EDIT> Added spoiler tags!

[jenks]

Which wars? Did she fight in the first Persian Gulf War? Afganistan? Iraq? If I remember, she was studying the gate before the Stargate program and she was either going offworld exploring (and fighting skirmish battles w/ enemies) or stuck on base. Would that constitute war experience? And put my words into context. I never stated that a lack of war experience meant lack of ability to lead a base. What I said was a lack of command experience as a colonel meant a lack of experience compared to other, more experienced colonels. What I discredited was "wartime experience", not military experience.

Yes.

[Cameron Mitchel]

Yes.

Huh?! You must be KIDDING!!!! And this yes is in response to what part? The Persian Gulf, Iraq, Afghanistan? The War experience part? There's never been anything suggesting Carter fought in war.

[Ltcolshepjumper]

Yes.

But just think about what rank she MIGHT have been- a captain, maybe,but most likely a lieutenant. So she was just in the combat. that doesn't warrant wartime experience.

[jenks]

Huh?! You must be KIDDING!!!! And this yes is in response to what part? The Persian Gulf, Iraq, Afghanistan? The War experience part? There's never been anything suggesting Carter fought in war.

O'Neill: (sitting down) Oh, this has nothing to do with you being a woman. I like women. I've just got a little problem with scientists.

Carter: Colonel, I logged over 100 hours in enemy airspace during the Gulf War. Is that tough enough for you? Or are we going to have to arm wrestle?

Now don't you feel silly.