The Conference Room-A Thread for Season 4 Peace Talks

[Madeleine]

I was talking about the bolded part, "Fuelling the fire, rings any bells? *lol*" That sounds like an insinuation...

You've rather missed my point. you and Celcool were both - if I assunme the worst of you both - picking at each other and assuming the worst and escalating things up a level with each post. Or, if I give you the benefit of the doubt, you were each trying to point out behaviour in the other that you found unhelpful... and potkettlepotkettle...

Sorry, but while I think it's a useful step to be talking in general terms (if necessary with specific examples) about things that fans do that upset other fans when it comes to ideological disagreements, i think that what you two had going was a two-handed disagreement over who had insulted whom first and who had taken offence the most irrationally.

Seriously, PLEASE could we drop it. What do you hope to achieve? Is raking CC over the coals going to make the fandom a better place?

Do you have anything to say about the subject at hand?

By blaming others for behavoring rudely yourself basically nullifies any attempts at changing the self, since all we have to say is "it's their fault!"

Who's doing that? I haven't seen anyone try. I'm not sure what you're getting at.

[Alipeeps]

So some people - and celcool isn't the first, and this Weir-Carter thing isn't the first occasion - think that it's incumbent on the happy pros to be gentle with the antis. Seems reasonable to me, and unreasonable too... but I think it's better to discuss it, and perhaps to examine if the idea has any merit than to see it as in itself an insult.

So. Yeah, as a mod and as a poster, I do try to be easier on recently-disappointed antis than on other people I disagree with. I think it's only decent. I have to say though that as an occasional anti, I don't actually expect gentleness, or take it to heart if people are as vehement in their support of what I am anti as I am in my unsupport. I know no one's out to get me by posting a contrary opinion. (they wouldn't dare be out to get ME hahahaha.)

But that's only in the first days and weeks. By the following year I tend to see no reason to treat antis any differently; sorry but if you spend more than a few weeks in mourning for a TV show or character I think you have to accept that people won't necessarily understand.

JMO.

What do other people think? Does / should it make a difference whether you are posting to a happy person or one who has lost something they cared about on the show?

That's a very good point and I have to agree with you and Linzi. I can certainly empathise with people who have lost a favourite character on the show and I too had my share of concerns at some of the changes and expressed a few negative thoughts on the forums. But, as Linzi said, after a while I moved on. I would like to think that I would do the same if the character being lost were one of my favourites.. I would either have to come to terms with the loss and move on and enjoy the show for the other elements I like, or decide that the show no longer holds interest for me without that character and choose to step back from it.

So I was certainly sympathetic to the antis and shared a lot of their concerns in the short term but I did, after time, move on. Now I'm not saying that I expect everyone to get over their concerns and their hurt feelings just because I have but yeah, I do think there is an expiration date on sympathy and the expectation of special treatment.

And beyond that limit, I do struggle to understand people who persist in being comprehensively negative about every single aspect of the show, based on the loss or alteration of one element of it. This thread has actually been really useful to me in terms of understanding the other side's point of view - which, as we've discussed, because of the fandom division, rarely gets discussed or explained rationally and calmly - and I'm grateful for that and I get that amongst those who class themselves as antis there are a wide range of opinions and that many people have concerns about the show, as I do myself, but are not 100% anti, as it were. It's those who still are that, I admit, I still struggle to understand.

For a few weeks and months after finding out that a beloved character is leaving the show, I can fully understand someone feeling completely negative about the show in every way. But surely, there comes a time when you have to choose to move on? As Maddy said, you can't expect everyone to humour you forever? So some 6-8 months after the news first broke etc, I do find it hard to comprehend the mindset of those who are still so determinedly negative about every single aspect of the show (even ones they have publicly expressed enjoyment of before the "watershed event" that has coloured their feeling for the show) - those who no matter what thread they are posting in, or what the topic, will give the same sentiment: the show is dead, it's no good anymore, everything about it is wrong, I won't be watching it ever again, it should be cancelled - and then feel that they are being attacked when people respond with less than overwhelming sympathy. I think people's patience does reach an end and maybe that's where some of the frustration comes from and the "If you don't like it, why post on a fan site?" comments.

I think this inability to understand that mindset of determined negativity, once a certain "mourning period" has passed, may account for a lot of the frustration and impatience that leads to antis feeling unwelcome/persecuted. To carry the hurt and the grief of losing a character on a TV show that far, to almost hug it and cherish it and wear it like a badge of honour, that is a difficult thing for me to understand and hence sympathise with. If something was causing me that much pain, I would remove myself from reminders of that pain, not continue to torture myself with it every day. I think beyond a certain point, it begins to appear - to the outside observer who cannot understand this mindset - like self-indulgence....

[Madeleine]

And then, SOME weir fans, egged on by other anti sam fans, started open season on sam and sam fans and bashed the stuffins out of both parties. all of a sudden, i'm mean and horrible because i dont' find the casting changes to be the end of the world and a terrible tragedy.

Kinda hard to be considerate when the people you're trying to be considerate to spit in your face.

The problem is that if people are expecting all Weir fans to be equally grateful and/or reasonable, they're kidding themself, because as we all know, unbalanced and/or selfish people exist, fact of life. And when they aren't all grateful and reasonable, when the few unkind characters pop up, the 'kind of hard to be considerate' bit comes out. The "I was nice to some weir fans and 5% of them threw it back in my face, a pox on ye weir fans" attitude manifests itself.

I don't think there's a point in being nice to Weir fans (or Ford, Daniel, Jonas, Carson fans) just so long as they're all being nice back. Where's the virtue in that? The few nasties need to be ignored, the rest deserve as much consideration as they would have received if the nasties weren't around.

Yes, it's hard for people to be targeted by a small number of bitter fans whose hate is directed at real people; it's also bloody hard to be unfortunate enough to share views on the show with those haters and to be forever and ever hit over the head with the baton of how the haters WHO ARE ___ FANS have been nasty to people and it was BECAUSE THEY'RE ___ FANS with the constant implication that ALL ___ FANS SHARE COLLECTIVELY IN THE GUILT and there's really no need to be particularly pleasant to ___ fans because after all, it was one of THEM who was nasty that time a few days/months/years ago.

and it's a pattern that repeats every single time there is a casting change.

Well, for my part, every single time there's a casting change I'll do my best to be nice to the people who will miss a favourite character. Regardless of whether they share an affiliation with someone who is ungrateful or unkind.

[SMB_BOOKS]

Wow - some interesting developments on the thread in the last day or so.

My entire post is all about me. Well, all about MY feelings that is. I won't speak for anyone else except little ol' me.

For me, two main things going on, as it relates to SGA. 1) I'm sad Weir/Torri is being reduced to recurring and 2) I'm lobbying to change that.

While I respect and understand other individuals desiring fans who are losing their favorite character to move on and come to terms with it, I also have personally made a decision that I'm not ready to give up yet. I still believe in the power of the human voice. I feel, as a devoted fan of the show, it is my responsibility to show support for a character and an actress that I think a lot of. (Is it possible to think a lot of a fictional character? I guess so, in my world).

My belief that my one voice will make a difference may be naive. It may be silly. But it is my honest, genuine belief. Perhaps if more people felt their single voice would make a difference, more people would let their voice be heard. (I'm not just referring to SGA stuff with that last line, either).

I may eventually have to accept the changes that are being made. I'm not ready to do that yet. I'm going to continue to lobby (in a polite and professional manner, I hope) for a character I relate to and find enjoyment in.

SGA isn't my whole life, it's just a show I happen to enjoy, a lot. As a wife and mother who also works full-time, I have very little time for recreational pursuits that are all my own. SGA is one of the few luxuries I allow myself. So, I guess I'm a little close to the subject. One of the main reasons I enjoy the show (the existing team and their relationships to each other) is being changed.

So, personally, I ask for a little leniency for me, a Weir fan who is still sad about the changes and who still believes (naively or not) that I can make a difference. I'm reasonbly sure there are other Weir fans out there who would ask for the same, but since it would be wrong for me to speak for them too, I'll just ask for it for myself.

[Pegasus_SGA]

it makes sense. I have sympathy for the grieving. it hurts to lose a character that you like. In the shows that i watch, i've lost Kate on NCIS, Sam on Profiler and others.

and most people grieve adn move on

then ther is the other extreme. In my line of work we crosed paths with a woman whose sister was killed in a car crash a few years ago. but she hasnt' moved on. she lives in her grief, she wallows in her grief. seh's convinced her neice, who was 5 weeks old at the time of the crash, that seh remembers it, that she's traumatized by it and that her life is ruined...at the tender age of 4, cause her mommy died.

that grief, tragically blown out of proportion, is gonna ruin a dozen lives because it's simply too big and she won't let it go and move on

That's so sad, Sky. The thing is people think that there's a time limit to be put on grieving and there really isn't, people grieve in different ways and there's no right or wrong way to handle someone's passing.

But as Linzi has said below, this is a TV show. And while [insert character of choice] may have been killed off or has left, it is a fictional TV programme. A very good, and thoroughly enjoyable series, but it is just that; make believe to feed our imagination and come and play with like-minded individuals be they pro/anti/sitting on the fence... Yes there is a 'grieving process' if you like, but that's where sometimes people need a reality check... and I really don't mean that to sound as harsh as it does. But does losing a favourite character even compare to something like what you've descibed? No, because it's all about putting things in perspective (as Linzi said). At the end of the day we're all fans of the show and a lot of people still enjoy the various elements that the show can provide. That's not changed, has it? So maybe it's time we found some common ground and build on that. None of us have any preconceptions that this is something that can be resolved overnight. In fact, in all honesty until S4 actually airs, people will probably still have concerns. But that shouldn't stop both sides conversing and enjoying the debates (irrespective of where they stand) providing people go into a thread with an open mind.

That is totally dreadful, and really puts things into perspective for me. My heart goes out to that lady and her family, especially the little girl

I see the point your making here and I honestly feel very sorry if the loss of a character is ruining someone's life, whether it be that it is affecting their real life or online life. But how should one deal with the sitation if the person affected does become hostile and aggressive, or looks for slights all the time?

For me, after a while my sympathy does wane, and maybe then I'm seen as being cold. I've been asked: "Linzi, how would you feel if it was your favourite character this was happening to?" - and my answer is always the same. For me, I'd have to move on. If I was so upset and angry and looking to bring others down and honestly didn't enjoy the show anymore in any way, then I'd be pretty worried about myself - that is if I felt anti everything all the time. Now if it's just a certain aspect of the show I'm anti about, fine, but if I don't want to watch the new season, why would I want to go into new episode speculation threads and comment on spoilers if I'm so upset and angry and won't be watching? What would my motivation be? I just can't see why I'd want to do that to myself or others either... I'd have to let go.

In that poor lady's situation what happened was a tragic event in real life, but this is fiction, and for me, it just can't compare, or can it? Are characters in the show that important to some that they really do feel they've lost a friend or member of their family?

Nicely said. In response to your last question, I have to answer no. I've lost too many family members in too short a time. So for me, although I am sad when the character I care about has died, it is unfortunately a part of life. How many times can we realistically put our characters lives on the line and for their not to be on occasions, jeapordy or consequences? It happens in all parts of the fandom whether you're a 'gater, 'trekkie (sorry I like the old term better), BSG fan etc, you have to accept it, because we as fans don't have the power to change things (as much as we'd like) So what is our alternative? Continue to grieve for that character for years and years until it consumes us or deal with the 'loss' and move on... And by 'dealing', I don't mean to shy away and not to be heard from again, i'm talking about celebrating what that person has achieved, laugh at some of the things they've done or said, appreciate what they've given us in terms of entertainment, look at what we hoped they wanted to achieve and celebrate their accomplishments. It might make for a more enjoyable experience on the threads. For the record, I don't think that every person who is anti or every person who is pro can't see the postive and negative of a situation because it only seems to be a certain few. But as a lot of people on this thread have said (much better than me), if you refuse to budge from your 'S4 is going to perfect' or 'S4 is going to be crap' then where can someone debate that with you?

Okay i'm shutting up now, cos i'm tired now, and brain dead and i'm just depressing myself.

[Madeleine]

And beyond that limit, I do struggle to understand people who persist in being comprehensively negative about every single aspect of the show, based on the loss or alteration of one element of it.

You know what I think it is? two things. One is that the antis can't let go of the show cos they nurse a hope that the show will get better / get back to how they want it, and because of this still feel involved in fandom and the only way they can actively be involved is to post, but the only things they can post is their feelings and their feelings aren't terribly positive or complimentary about the show...

The other is that people like to moan together; I don't mean that in a bad way, but when something is bad it can actually be quite amusing to point it out within a group of like-minded friends and laugh about it. So people get together in a character-lamenting thread to grieve, and then they get over it a bit and get a bit snarky and give each other a laugh... and it becomes habit-forming.

It's not really my thing, I wouldn't bother posting on a forum for a show I'd come to dislkie that much, but I think I see some of why it happens.

I ought to say that the perception I have is that of an outsider, and I don't have any beef with anyone posting negative posts. So I mean the above with no disrespect, and if anyone takes any offense, please feel free to explain why and I'll apologise or retract if necessary. And I'm sure there are plenty of other reasons, which i'm sure people would be interested in, so if my assessment does not fit your own pattern of posting, feel free to speak up

[parisindy]

Open note apropos of a large number of posts that have been deleted, and reflecting on several threads including this one.

If you feel you are being 'run off' a thread openly by people posting at you to shut up or naff off or whatever, please (1) tell a mod and (2) grow thicker skin.

We're as happy as we've always been to pop our heads in and tell people that they have no right to talk to others like that, and we've even taken that as far as putting people on moderation in the past. We'll take action whenever we see it's necessary, but we aren't always going to see it, so we're reliant on you to let us know. And regrettably, trolls and rude people are a fact of life, we've all been insulted or disrespected here, but it's just something that can't be taken personally - or given much weight - because if you do you'll be letting them win.

If you're being run out of some thread by more insidious means - nasty rep comments, PMs etc - then again, please tell a mod. Please don't get angry with the denizens of the thread; maybe one or two will know what's riled you but the rest will be pleasant clueless sorts who might just take your anger as hurtfully as you took the insults to yourself.

If we're told about an issue, we will look into the matter, and given that several of us really don't feel strongly one way or the other about Atlantis itself, I honestly think we can do a fine job of staying unbiased.

Don't let one or two people run you out of a thread; but if you do (and I know that it can seem pointless to stay in a place that doesn't make you happy) please don't blame GW as a whole, and please don't imagine you're not welcome here. Most people are more than happy to live and let live.

Madeleine

Thanks you for that post Madeleine I appreciate that post, it gave me a lot to think about for sure.

I promised myself I would never come back to GW but here I am, against my own advice. I hope you guys don’t mind.

I am anti season 4…yup I know it’s a news flash.

In its current state I don’t wish to see the show continue, but that does not mean that I expect that to happen nor do I think anything I say will make that happen….or that I want other people to be sad. That is my opinion… and that’s all it is. I do not expect anyone to agree and I do not plan on forcing it on to anyone either.

If I am so against season 4 why did I stick around? Because I still love Atlantis, actually pretty excited about the new book, but I have no one to talk about that anymore.

And I love seasons 1-3 (minus a few things) and Why did I post in the season 4 threads? Because people who I used to hang out with often posted there and well frankly I missed them, that and well I want desperately for someone or something to change my mind about season 4. Do I want to hate season 4. No I don’t. I keep hoping something will happen and I will enjoy the show again. Some small spoiler that will suddenly make everything okay… yeah I’m a dreamer I know.

I am sorry for anything I said in anger as I have said a lot in anger. I know this feeling is my own and I should control it but I feel slighted at every turn and it makes it hard.

I left before in a huff… yup I won’t deny it... as I wrote it I told myself it wasn’t worth posting… yet I did, and here I am again posting against my own better wisdom.

Why I was/am upset, I poured my heart and soul in to a post that got deleted. Not that having it deleted was really the issue; I appreciate the mods and what they do. Especially Madeline. ((hugs)).

I was answering a question someone asked me to answer. (My only question about that is how can we get along if we don’t understand what and why the other person says what they do?) I realize some people have bent over backwards to understand me, and I appreciate that totally but at the same time some have bent over backwards to attack me.

I am my own worse enemy when it comes to that, I answer back in anger, when I should really turn my back and report it. Though that has always felt a little like ‘teacher s/he’s being mean’, so its something I need to work on. I am not really good at the whole trust thing… but that’s a personal issue.

People are also upset at me for something I posted in the anti thread, to which I honestly do not understand why. I was told I was being nasty but I don’t see how, and some have quit talking to me all together over it. I made a little joke about people (in general) sometimes acting like piranhas over my posts but it was aimed at no one person or group. Why was it so wrong to ask my friends to help me keep the peace if things went badly? Especially when I asked no one to agree with me. And I have to say they did go badly.

I have said more then once that I do not speak for anyone other then myself but then was accused of saying I speak for all the antis.

I have been accused of many things via pm lately and that’s why I have been feeling so hurt and angry... well some of the reasons anyways. I’ve been accused of doing things I never did…. And many other things.

In the past I have been told I am no longer welcome on the whump thread that it is ‘pro only’ and that everyone there was sick of me and hated me.

Recently via pm I have been called, a troll, that I ‘get what I deserve’, that the anti people hated me and that everyone was leaving because of me. And that I “should just get out I wasn’t welcome’

I know I need to grow a thicker skin and I take things personally and that I am over sensitive. But as many of these comments were made via pm I know they are personal. I know I need to be a tougher person, I hate debating and I hate fighting, its something I am working on but cannot change overnight. Yet I hope you understand why I am so frightened to post at all.

If I act out in anger I will hold it against no one if I am told to ‘back off and take a breath’ I will do it, no questions asked. I am not completely unreasonable. Though I don’t expect anyone should have to do that. I’ve learned my lesson and I will do my best to keep my mouth shut in the future.

If everyone is leaving because of me, and hates me, as I’ve been told I am sorry for that, but if that is indeed true tell me why should I stay? I don’t want to cause anyone else any grief and it seems that is all I do.

Thank you.
~Paris

[Alipeeps]

The "I was nice to some weir fans and 5% of them threw it back in my face, a pox on ye weir fans" attitude manifests itself.

Sorry, this is of no use to the general conversation whatsoever, but just had to mention that your turn of phrase there did make me chortle..

For me, two main things going on, as it relates to SGA. 1) I'm sad Weir/Torri is being reduced to recurring and 2) I'm lobbying to change that.

While I respect and understand other individuals desiring fans who are losing their favorite character to move on and come to terms with it, I also have personally made a decision that I'm not ready to give up yet. I still believe in the power of the human voice. I feel, as a devoted fan of the show, it is my responsibility to show support for a character and an actress that I think a lot of. (Is it possible to think a lot of a fictional character? I guess so, in my world).

And I have to say I perfectly understand your position and even applaud it - everywhere I have seen you post (both GW and JM's blog) you are unfailingly polite and calm and reasoned and open to discussion and you express yourself in an open, unaggressive manner. We should all follow your example.

I should clarify that when I said above that I feel, after a certain point, people need to move on, I don't mean to suggest that people should give up hope and if people want to campaign for change then that is their right and more power to them.. what I meant by moving on was more letting go of the hurt and anger that some fans just can't seem to get past... I think your stance is very healthy - you enjoy the show, you are sad about changes and you want to do what you can to preserve the aspects of the show you love. You are taking positive action and you are doing it in a reasonable manner - you are capable of discussing the issue calmly and making your point - or your requests - politely. You do your chosen viewpoint credit. If anything, you are focusing on the positive within the negative.

Those people who I do kinda feel need to fn a way to move on a little and deal with their hurt are the ones who focus only on the negative aspect of everything, who unfortunately seem to end up lashing out at others in their hurt and their pain, expressing their viewpoint in ways that are not appropriate or productive (I'm thinking in particular of some of the comments on Joe's blog here) and ultimately do themselves, and the viewpoint people perceive them to represent, no favours.

[PG15]

You've rather missed my point. you and Celcool were both - if I assunme the worst of you both - picking at each other and assuming the worst and escalating things up a level with each post. Or, if I give you the benefit of the doubt, you were each trying to point out behaviour in the other that you found unhelpful... and potkettlepotkettle...

Sorry, but while I think it's a useful step to be talking in general terms (if necessary with specific examples) about things that fans do that upset other fans when it comes to ideological disagreements, i think that what you two had going was a two-handed disagreement over who had insulted whom first and who had taken offence the most irrationally.

Seriously, PLEASE could we drop it. What do you hope to achieve? Is raking CC over the coals going to make the fandom a better place?

Do you have anything to say about the subject at hand?

I think this is the subject at hand, actually. I don't feel insulted at all and I don't think she set off to insult anyone (and if CC feels insulted by my posts, then I apologize, it wasn't my intent) I just think she is trying to blame factors other than the quintessential fan him/herself on the hostilities going on around here; this I disagree with, and thus we are debating it.

I mean, that's what this is about right? Being able to discuss without insulting? As far as I know, that's what's happening between me and CC.

Who's doing that? I haven't seen anyone try. I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Well, at the risk of elevating this even further, I saw Celcool blaming TPTB for riling up the fans in the first place, making them act badly. That's what started this whole thing; that's what prompt me to say that fans are responsible for their own behaviors regardless of what outside force angered them.

[Alipeeps]

In the past I have been told I am no longer welcome on the whump thread that it is ‘pro only’ and that everyone there was sick of me and hated me.

With all due respect, honey - and we probably shouldn't discuss specific cases on here - but that simply didn't happen. I know you are desperately unhappy over the changes to the show and I really do feel for you but, on the flip side of things, you also need to see that your hurt has made you, in some cases, oversensitive. We've discussed in here how people not sharing your opinion is not a personal attack on you (not you specifically, you in the general sense) and in the past, and on the whump thread, you have kinda taken things that way.

There's been a lot of talk in this thread about how and why frustrations and divisions arise in fandom and one of the main points that has come up again and again is that expressing a blanket, immovable, 100% polarised opinion - either pro or anti - doesn't allow for discussion and ultimately leads to tension. You say you want to be convinced that Season 4 will be good after all but when people do ty to discuss your concerns over the show with you, they tend to be met by the blanket response of "I'm not happy with anything about it, I think it should be cancelled" and really, where can the discussion go from there?

What happened on the whump thread was that there was a lot of negativity around at the time and many posters were getting down in the dumps about the various news and some general comments were made about how the whump thread has always been a cheerful place and it was a shame to see it become so negative, and we should try and get that cheerful atmosphere back. They were general comments, not aimed at you, not mentioning anyone in particular, but you obviously felt attacked and slighted by them. And because you were feeling sensitive and hurt, you lashed out at others on the thread. What happened there was a microcosm of the fandom problems we have discussed on this thread. Assumptions were made and people got frustrated and lost patience and harsh words were said on both sides.. but honey, no-one ever said they were sick of you or hated you. I know you feel hurt and feel people have attacked you but sweetie, those things were simply never said and I hate to think that you interpreted anything on the whump thread as even trying to say that about you.

Recently via pm I have been called, a troll, that I ‘get what I deserve’, that the anti people hated me and that everyone was leaving because of me. And that I “should just get out I wasn’t welcome’

I know I need to grow a thicker skin and I take things personally and that I am over sensitive. But as many of these comments were made via pm I know they are personal. I know I need to be a tougher person, I hate debating and I hate fighting, its something I am working on but cannot change overnight. Yet I hope you understand why I am so frightened to post at all.

I've said above that you have been over-sensitive and you acknowledge it yourself here but, honey, no-one shoudl be saying things like that to you by PM and you should not grow a thicker skin over things like that - you should report them to the mods. That kind of behaviour is completely unnecessary and is against GW rules.

[Madeleine]

I think this is the subject at hand, actually. I don't feel insulted at all and I don't think she set off to insult anyone (and if CC feels insulted by my posts, then I apologize, it wasn't my intent) I just think she is trying to blame factors other than the quintessential fan him/herself on the hostilities going on around here; this I disagree with, and thus we are debating it.

I think that as long as each individual accepts that only they are responsible for the words they type, it's not unacceptable to blame certain attitudes or certain behaviours for the atmosphere of hostility that people might find pervades a thread. As long as there's a willingness to listen in turn and to take on criticisms which may apply to onesself, then 'blame' may well have a place here. At least, at a "this is what I think causes that" sort of level, though probably not "this is the fault of them."

I do think the "this is how that makes me feel" way of discussing things is probably less flammable though. (Is that whay you're trying to get me to see?)

Well, at the risk of elevating this even further, I saw Celcool blaming TPTB for riling up the fans in the first place, making them act badly. That's what started this whole thing; that's what prompt me to say that fans are responsible for their own behaviors regardless of what outside force angered them.

I didn't see that: I didn't see any direct implicaiton that TPTB were 'making' fans react badly or behave badly. On the other hand, it's so true and obvious as to be pointless to say, but I'll say it anyway: If it weren't for TPTB this particular argument really wouldn't be happenning. Noooo, we'd be having another one. Or none at all, what with GW not existing since nor the show itself.

As to your wider point about people blaming their bad behaviour on other people, I don't think - and I really hope I'm right - anyone seriously would try to blame their own bad behaviour on other people. But there IS bad feeling in some of these threads, and it stands to reason that no one feels that they caused it, although they may well have reacted to it , and perhaps discussing what people feel is a cause of bad atmospheres has a place here.

[Linzi]

Thanks you for that post Madeleine I appreciate that post, it gave me a lot to think about for sure.

I promised myself I would never come back to GW but here I am, against my own advice. I hope you guys don’t mind.

I am anti season 4…yup I know it’s a news flash.

In its current state I don’t wish to see the show continue, but that does not mean that I expect that to happen nor do I think anything I say will make that happen….or that I want other people to be sad. That is my opinion… and that’s all it is. I do not expect anyone to agree and I do not plan on forcing it on to anyone either.

If I am so against season 4 why did I stick around? Because I still love Atlantis, actually pretty excited about the new book, but I have no one to talk about that anymore.

And I love seasons 1-3 (minus a few things) and Why did I post in the season 4 threads? Because people who I used to hang out with often posted there and well frankly I missed them, that and well I want desperately for someone or something to change my mind about season 4. Do I want to hate season 4. No I don’t. I keep hoping something will happen and I will enjoy the show again. Some small spoiler that will suddenly make everything okay… yeah I’m a dreamer I know.

I am sorry for anything I said in anger as I have said a lot in anger. I know this feeling is my own and I should control it but I feel slighted at every turn and it makes it hard.

I left before in a huff… yup I won’t deny it... as I wrote it I told myself it wasn’t worth posting… yet I did, and here I am again posting against my own better wisdom.

Why I was/am upset, I poured my heart and soul in to a post that got deleted. Not that having it deleted was really the issue; I appreciate the mods and what they do. Especially Madeline. ((hugs)).

I was answering a question someone asked me to answer. (My only question about that is how can we get along if we don’t understand what and why the other person says what they do?) I realize some people have bent over backwards to understand me, and I appreciate that totally but at the same time some have bent over backwards to attack me.

I am my own worse enemy when it comes to that, I answer back in anger, when I should really turn my back and report it. Though that has always felt a little like ‘teacher s/he’s being mean’, so its something I need to work on. I am not really good at the whole trust thing… but that’s a personal issue.

People are also upset at me for something I posted in the anti thread, to which I honestly do not understand why. I was told I was being nasty but I don’t see how, and some have quit talking to me all together over it. I made a little joke about people (in general) sometimes acting like piranhas over my posts but it was aimed at no one person or group. Why was it so wrong to ask my friends to help me keep the peace if things went badly? Especially when I asked no one to agree with me. And I have to say they did go badly.

I have said more then once that I do not speak for anyone other then myself but then was accused of saying I speak for all the antis.

I have been accused of many things via pm lately and that’s why I have been feeling so hurt and angry... well some of the reasons anyways. I’ve been accused of doing things I never did…. And many other things.

In the past I have been told I am no longer welcome on the whump thread that it is ‘pro only’ and that everyone there was sick of me and hated me.

Recently via pm I have been called, a troll, that I ‘get what I deserve’, that the anti people hated me and that everyone was leaving because of me. And that I “should just get out I wasn’t welcome’

I know I need to grow a thicker skin and I take things personally and that I am over sensitive. But as many of these comments were made via pm I know they are personal. I know I need to be a tougher person, I hate debating and I hate fighting, its something I am working on but cannot change overnight. Yet I hope you understand why I am so frightened to post at all.

If I act out in anger I will hold it against no one if I am told to ‘back off and take a breath’ I will do it, no questions asked. I am not completely unreasonable. Though I don’t expect anyone should have to do that. I’ve learned my lesson and I will do my best to keep my mouth shut in the future.

If everyone is leaving because of me, and hates me, as I’ve been told I am sorry for that, but if that is indeed true tell me why should I stay? I don’t want to cause anyone else any grief and it seems that is all I do.

Thank you.
~Paris

I'm sorry Paris. Time for some plain talking.

Who exactly were you calling piranhas? You say you weren't calling anyone that and that you can't understand why your post caused fan upset, especially those in the anti thread who were your 'friends'. But your post [mod snip] piranhas? Who are they exactly? You are saying anyone who disagreed with your post here might be a piranha trying to nip away at you. That is calling a group of people, presumably anyone who is Pro season 4 a flesh eating fish. If you can't see why your friends and other posters were offended by that, [mod snip] then I don't know what to say.

[mod snip]

[PG15]

I think that as long as each individual accepts that only they are responsible for the words they type, it's not unacceptable to blame certain attitudes or certain behaviours for the atmosphere of hostility that people might find pervades a thread. As long as there's a willingness to listen in turn and to take on criticisms which may apply to onesself, then 'blame' may well have a place here. At least, at a "this is what I think causes that" sort of level, though probably not "this is the fault of them."

I agree with you here completely. It's perfectly fine to say that certain fans on all sides are doing stuff that's making the forum hostile, after all, that's why this thread was created.

It's the "certain fans on all sides caused me to act badly" that I have a problem with.

I do think the "this is how that makes me feel" way of discussing things is probably less flammable though. (Is that whay you're trying to get me to see?)

I'm not quite sure. All I know is, CC said something I disagreed with, and we started debating it.

I didn't see that: I didn't see any direct implicaiton that TPTB were 'making' fans react badly or behave badly. On the other hand, it's so true and obvious as to be pointless to say, but I'll say it anyway: If it weren't for TPTB this particular argument really wouldn't be happenning. Noooo, we'd be having another one. Or none at all, what with GW not existing since nor the show itself.

Yep, and that's why my original post said right at the beginning that "well, it's not all of their fault" or something like that. I never make absolute statements.

---

Ok, pretend you didn't read that one.

Seriously though; that's why I have a problem with the "we're just doing it because TPTB made us mad" position; anything they'll do will make *somebody* mad, that's just a fact of individual thought; it's up to us to decide what we do with the resulting emotions.

[Suzotchka]

If everyone is leaving because of me, and hates me, as I’ve been told I am sorry for that, but if that is indeed true tell me why should I stay? I don’t want to cause anyone else any grief and it seems that is all I do.

Thank you.
~Paris

Paris, I am an anti person and I do not hate you at all and I think you should stay here at GW. All opinions are (and should be) welcomed here. If people don't want to read what you have to say, they can put you on ignore (I have a few people on ignore myself, so it does happen).

And if you are getting nasty, PM's, I would forward them to a mod because no one should be calling anyone names of any kind.

You apologized for your actions. And you should not have to keep apologizing for it. People get angry and say things sometimes they don't mean. It happens and you apologized for it.

Edit: We should try and call a truce on this and move past it.

[Madeleine]

Linzi, as I said above, sometimes you need a thick skin. No one was calling anyone a flesh eating fish. You were not called a flesh-eating fish. Someone was a bit paranoid that they would be savaged, and woweee, it became a self-fulfilling prophecy.

After which, you can call truce or hold a grudge. Of course, the second will itself become a self-perpetuating entity of its own accord.