Asurans ascending??

[Wraith_Boy]

^ i dont think they can... you need workign brain. like you need what ever it is ammount of brain usage. the asurans can't do that. they might be able to dupe the abilities. but thats all. and because its not a singal being its 100000000000000000000000000 (give or take a few 100000000000000000000000000) nanobots.

Who says they don't already have one! A much more advanced & efficient brain compared to a human.

A brain is essentially millions of tiny little computers working together. It's made up of cells called 'Neurons', when turned on & working - they fire electrical impulses down wires (axon). All these billions of wires actually give out an electrical charge, which has been estimated to be the same as a 60w bulb. So I don't see why millions/billions of nanites can't come together & do a lot more than a human brain could ever do.

For instance Asgard can take their mind & interface it directly into a compuer such as seen with Thor a couple of times. He also took O'Neill's consciousness & integrated it into the Asgard computer aboard his ship in 'New Order'. Then extracted all the advanced knowledge & put him back to his old self. Therefore if a person's mind/consaciousness can be put in a computer & still function, does that really make the Asurans any different considering what theya re made from.

Lanteans are far more advanced, then the fact Asurans have been working freely for the past 10,000 years. Some obviously have been putting that time towards studying & understanding ascension.

All you need is to be advanced or physically evolved enough to use around 96% of your brain.

It was abbreviated on in 'Tao of Rodney'.

McKAY: "Look, when you get down to it, even mental states are actually only physical states, are they not? I mean, the brain is just a chemical super-computer."

McKAY: "Look, all the hocus pocus stuff is just a way of getting the brain into the proper electro-chemical state to allow the final physical evolution, at which point the matter that makes up this body will turn into pure energy. (Carson looks sceptical.) Look, what mere mortals would refer to as the ... (he wiggles his fingers mysteriously either side of his head) ... mystery of ascension is actually just a scientific process -- it’s just protons and electrons. Protons and electrons."

McKAY: "Now, based on what I’ve extrapolated from the Ancient research, I have been able to set measurable parameters for achieving the proper mental state. Once I reach ninety six percent synaptic connection, as measured by this device ... (he points to it as Carson switches the device on and lights come on on the headband) ... all I need to do is maintain an E.E.G. frequency of zero point one to zero point nine Hertz and presto. (He clicks his fingers, then gestures skywards.) I arise to a higher plane of existence."

While the Asurans said this in 'Progeny':

ASURAN FEMALE 1: We seek to continue our own evolution.

ASURAN FEMALE 2: To truly emulate the Ancients and their ultimate achievement.

TEYLA: Even though they betrayed you.

NIAM: They are our creators, and ascension is the final step to equalling them, to becoming one with them.

SHEPPARD: No offence, but ... how are a bunch of machines gonna do that?

ASURAN FEMALE 1: Are you so different?

SHEPPARD: Well, we’re living, breathing people.

ASURAN FEMALE 2: Constructed from cells, consuming and burning energy, governed by electrical impulses ...

If anything, they should be able to achieve it naturally than a Human or Lantean who had to use machines to artifically evolve themselves to an advanced enough state. Probably the only thing holding them back is their base code that is littered with evil & violence. If they get that cut out from their base-code, then I think they should be able to ascend.

The simple point is that the Asurans believe it's possible for them to ascend. They know their own physiology & makeup inside out. If they believe that it can actually be done, then it obviously is something that they could one day achieve. If only they can get all the violent nature erased from their base-code.

[ciannwn]

Huh? what makes you say that? We know that they focused on religion while the Ancients were more into science, we also know they started off with good intentions when they first ascended.

If the wikepedia article about the Ori is correct (I'm aware that wikepdia isn't always 100% reliable) -

1) The Ori and Alterans developed philosophical differences long before any of them ascended.
2) The Ori attempted to kill the Alterans before anyone ascended.
3) The Ori still wish to destroy their ascended rivals.
4) Ascended beings can be empowered by non ascended beings worshipping them. The Ori religion is a big con trick with the aim of drawing power from their followers.

Religion and spirituality don't always go hand in hand.

[jenks]

Hmmm, I'm not sure about number 2, none of that would contradict the idea of the Ori being spiritual anyway...

[ciannwn]

Hmmm, I'm not sure about number 2, none of that would contradict the idea of the Ori being spiritual anyway...

What do you mean by spiritual, though? If one thinks of spirituality as working to free oneself from the concerns of the ego. etc. the Ori philosophy which led them to become control freaks draining energy from worshippers wasn't that kind of spirituality. If it's something like finding one's true place in the universe as a result of evolution then yes, you could say they were spiritual. It's still a kind of materialistic spirituality, though.

In Hide and Seek the expedition accidentally frees an energy entity which feeds on energy.(The Ori do a similar thing where their worshippers are concerned.) McKay suggests that the Ancients had been experimenting on it in order to develop a technological way to ascend. Although it shows some intelligence, the entity appears to be motivated by feeding because it doesn't make a quick exit onto another plane. This suggests that it wasn't a highly advanced intelligence (unless it had gone insane though being trapped for thousands of years) so energy entities could have evolved naturally alongside organic ones.

Although an organic entity's consciousness can take temporary lodging in someone else's brain (Laura Cadman) or be uploaded to a cloned body (the Asgard) there is no indication so far of anything which qualifies as a soul in the Stargate universe. When beings ascend they take their bodies with them in the form of energy rather than leaving them behind with their clothes.

Wraith_Boy's post quoted Rodney's views on the mechanics of ascension and I'm going to quote a quote here.

all I need to do is maintain an E.E.G. frequency of zero point one to zero point nine Hertz and presto. (He clicks his fingers, then gestures skywards.) I arise to a higher plane of existence.

As humans are organic creatures, strong emotions like fear and anger create a physical effect in the brain/body. If we're angry, scared or whatever it's difficult to relax enough to get to sleep let alone reduce our E.E.G. frequency to the one required for turning ourselves into pure energy.

The transcript of the BBC Horizon documentary God On The Brain is a good introduction to neurotheology. Near the end of the show we were told what happens in the brain of a meditating Buddhist. The meditation technique had a physical effect on the brain which involved the temporal lobes and a reduced blood flow to the parietal lobes which give us our sense of time and place. This documentary ties in very well with Rodney's views of what spiritual practice is all about in the Stargate universe.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon...aintrans.shtml

McKay again. "Look, all the hocus pocus stuff is just a way of getting the brain into the proper electro-chemical state to allow the final physical evolution, at which point the matter that makes up this body will turn into pure energy. (Carson looks sceptical.) Look, what mere mortals would refer to as the ... (he wiggles his fingers mysteriously either side of his head) ... mystery of ascension is actually just a scientific process -- it’s just protons and electrons. Protons and electrons."

Aren't the Asurans protons and electrons too on a fundamental level? What is their chance of ascending?

Probably the only thing holding them back is their base code that is littered with evil & violence. If they get that cut out from their base-code, then I think they should be able to ascend.

Maybe their real problem is that they've become obsessed with the idea of emulating their creators so they're trying to use a method developed for organic creatures. The Ori have shown that ascended beings can be littered with "evil and violence" so having this kind of thing in their base code isn't necessarily what's holding the Asurans back from ascension. A different method might well result in a way of turning the kind of matter they're constructed from into energy.

[Wraith_Boy]

That is true, but I can think of 1 solid instance of difference between the Ori & the Asurans.

1. Orlin said in 'The 4th Horseman' that the Ori started off with the best of intentions. So when they ascended initially, they may not have been 'evil' as what they would be regarded today.

Not to mention: Lanteans tried to wipe out the Asurans before ascending or fleeing Atlantis. We know ancients do interfere when it suits them, such as how they blocked the Ori from getting any info regarding the existence the MW galaxy. So it may be that the ascended Lanteans, could be blocking them from reaching that evolutionary point because of the violence that exists inside them.

The way they said in 'Progeny':

NIAM: "The aggression programmed into our core remained, fuelling a rage we could not contain. We implored them to have this violent nature removed from our programming, but the Ancients wanted a weapon, and since their scientists included a directive prohibiting us from ever harming them, they continued the experiment."

NIAM: "We realise this, and we have done much to repress our violent nature, but yet it still remains within us. We believe this, above all, is what has prevented us from ascending.

SHEPPARD: What are you looking for, therapy?

NIAM: We want to rewrite our base code to remove the directives for aggression."

They obviously seem to think they can ascend & it's the violence inside them that's potentially holding them back from reaching such a goal.

Although given JM's hint that one of the main bad guys may be gone come the end of S4. Then we may get to see the Asurans ascending if it's indeeed them that's been placed on the writers hit list!

[ciannwn]

That is true, but I can think of 1 solid instance of difference between the Ori & the Asurans.

1. Orlin said in 'The 4th Horseman' that the Ori started off with the best of intentions. So when they ascended initially, they may not have been 'evil' as what they would be regarded today.

There's a well known saying "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." (See the following interpretation from Answers Com) -

http://www.answers.com/topic/list-of-english-proverbs

Maybe it all depends on what motivates the 'good intentions'. "I'm doing this because I know what's best for you," doesn't automatically mean that I really do know what's best for you. It could be a case of "This is best for you because I say it is, so there!"

What exactly is consciousness in the Stargate universe?

1: The Asgard could upload themselves into cloned bodies. This is related to the Transhumanist dream of uploading one's consciousness into a computer. The drawback with the Transhumanist version is that what ends up in the computer is a copy of the original, not the original itself. The original me remains in my brain and ceases to exist when my brain stops functioning. Is the Asgard uploaded consciousness a copy too or is consciousness some mysterious thing which can be transferred from one body to another?

2: Laura Cadman's consciousness ended up sharing Rodney's body. Consciousness can't just be a product of the brain, then, because Rodney's brain would be constructed to produce Rodney not Laura as well. (There was nothing in the story to indicate that Rodney's brain had been changed to the extent where it could produce both Rodney and Laura.) The plot revolved around Laura in Rodney's body fading away which suggests that she wasn't a copy. After all, if the original 'Laura information' was still stored in the dart data bank they'd have got the original Laura back eventually.

3: In the Stargate universe, then, consciousness appears to be information which can be transferred from one physical medium to another as opposed to just copied. It still isn't the same as a soul, though, otherwise Laura wouldn't have been in danger of fading away to nothing. Ascension requires turning one's physical body into energy which suggests that this energy falls under the heading of 'physics' rather than 'metaphysics'. If consciousness was 'metaphysical', people would just leave their bodies at death and wander around on other planes without needing to go through a lot of bother.(Apart from the bother of dying, that is.) Ridding oneself of anger, hatred, etc. is just a technique for attaining a certain E.E.G. frequency. Once a body has become energy it isn't necessary to be free of negative emotions in order to remain in that state. If it were the Ori would have found themselves back on the physical plane in physical bodies.

4: If it's nothing more than physics there's no reason why the Asurans couldn't develop some kind of machine which just turns a physical object into energy which remains as energy.

There still remains the question of what is this mysterious 'life force' which the Wraith feed on. Maybe it's a primitive form of the energy which bodies are turned into at Ascension and is nothing more 'metaphysical' than electricity. It's just a power source to keep organic human machines running. If a Wraith could catch an ascended being he/she might have a really satisfying lunch because it would be a super refined form of human energy.

PS: The same 'life energy' could power animal bodies too. The Wraith can't use it though because their feeding methods take some DNA from the item on the menu. It would be very awkward in evolutionary terms if they acquired DNA from cows, sheep, pigs and chickens etc. because who knows what they'd end up as after a few generations.

[Mitchell82]

Wow great post.

[kymeric]

well if unending spoilers

Spoiler:

The asgard cant do it

what chance do abunch of transformers have of physically doing it

[ciannwn]

well if unending spoilers

Spoiler:

The asgard cant do it

what chance do abunch of transformers have of physically doing it

Spoiler:

How is a physical body turned into pure energy? What elements of the Asgard physical degeneration stopped them from ascending even though they were able to use transporters? The Ancients developed one method of ascending but is this the only one possible? Until these questions have been answered we can't say for certain that the Asurans will never find a way of doing it.

[rarocks24]

well if unending spoilers

Spoiler:

The asgard cant do it

what chance do abunch of transformers have of physically doing it

I'm surprised, doesn't Daniel Jackson know how to ascend (didn't Oma show him in case he changed his mind?)? He could have gone Oma and ascended the entire Asgard race.

[PG15]

No, both times Oma would've helped.

[Lost Charmed One]

People, the point here is that it takes a certain amount or level of spiritual enlightenment and physical evolution in order to naturally ascend. The Asurans simply cannot fathom the idea or pupose of mediating or "the releasing of one's burden" in order to ascend. They may be very intelligent, and possibly possess varies abilities, but I cannot see them contemplating over what their existence as a race, or even individually, means. Futhermore, I truly don't see them contemplating over their own enlighthenment... machines, not matter how advanced and intelligent, just don't do that.

[jenks]

People, the point here is that it takes a certain amount or level of spiritual enlightenment and physical evolution in order to naturally ascend. The Asurans simply cannot fathom the idea or pupose of mediating or "the releasing of one's burden" in order to ascend. They may be very intelligent, and possibly possess varies abilities, but I cannot see them contemplating over what their existence as a race, or even individually, means. Futhermore, I truly don't see them contemplating over their own enlighthenment... machines, not matter how advanced and intelligent, just don't do that.

I disagree, from what we've seen, I think all evidence points to the fact that ascension is a purely physical process. As long as you are physically capable and know how to do it, you can ascend.

[ciannwn]

People, the point here is that it takes a certain amount or level of spiritual enlightenment and physical evolution in order to naturally ascend.

So what exactly is spiritual enlightenment in relation to ascension? Can the Ori be classed as spiritually enlightened with their philosophy? If not, how did they manage to ascend?

Spoiler:

Adria managed to ascend in order to escape dying but there was no indication that she'd become spiritually enlightened at the last minute.

I disagree, from what we've seen, I think all evidence points to the fact that ascension is a purely physical process. As long as you are physically capable and know how to do it, you can ascend.

Two McKay quotes from The Tao Of Rodney.

"Look, all the hocus pocus stuff is just a way of getting the brain into the proper electro-chemical state to allow the final physical evolution, at which point the matter that makes up this body will turn into pure energy."

"all I need to do is maintain an E.E.G. frequency of zero point one to zero point nine Hertz and presto. (He clicks his fingers, then gestures skywards.) I arise to a higher plane of existence."

The Ancients invented a machine to manipulate DNA so an individual's body rapidly evolves to the point where it can be turned into energy. All that's needed after that is the 'mental component' which enables the ascender (who now has super powers) to maintain an E.E.G. frequency of zero point one to zero point nine Hertz. I find it hard to believe that it's impossible for any Stargate universe scientist to invent another machine which would trigger a brain into producing a particular E.E.G. frequency.

[Alchemist]

I disagree, from what we've seen, I think all evidence points to the fact that ascension is a purely physical process. As long as you are physically capable and know how to do it, you can ascend.

Yeah, but the thing is, the Ausrans don't know that there is anything else involved than spirituality. They don't believe that they can ascend, so they can't ascend.

IMHO, all it will take is for Rodney to brag (and we know he will ) to one of them that it is a purely physical problem

Spoiler:

or for them to probe his mind again and see the events of ToR

and they would be able to replicate the physical condition required for physical ascension.