First Strike (320)

[P-90_177]

Well the asgard havn't been as reliable recently as they once were.

Also asuran ships aren't exactly ancient ships. For all we know their ships are run by interfacing with the hadware, ala hand in head.

[I R baboon]

yeah I had not thought about that the replicators would prolly make computers that would require direct hand-in-the-head direct neural imput.

If you think of that it would actualy make a great deal more sense since it also makes the vessels way better in terms of evading enemy fire.
If you sense a bolt headed for your ship you can evade it faster if you use thoughts rather then buttons.

[Night Spring]

Refresh my memory. Does Atlantis have more than one ZPM? I mean if they do not, and decide to use the one they have for "project arcturus ", won't the shield be lowered,vent air, and everyone will, i don't know, to quote McKay "die horribly" ?

Yes, they do have only one ZPM -- this was established in Echoes.
And I'm thinking, they must have some EV suits, right? And the puddlejumpers have independent life support? They could pack everyone into the jumpers and have the people needed to fly the city in EV suits, and hope they can restore the hyperdrive and get to an habitable planet before the jumpers and EVs run out of air.

[Integrabyte]

Yes, they do have only one ZPM -- this was established in Echoes.

I knew the same thing but I thought I misunderstood.

They could pack everyone into the jumpers and have the people needed to fly the city in EV suits, and hope they can restore the hyperdrive and get to an habitable planet before the jumpers and EVs run out of air.

Interesting idea, however, I think you noticed that every time they wanted to evacuate and destroy Atlantis not to let it fall into Wraith, Genii, etc. , hands they had Caldwell in orbit. It seems unlikely that the puddlejumpers will be enough and you have to consider that the more people you pack into one the faster you deplete life support. Another point, how many EV suits do you think they have? They do not have enough to ease stress on puddle jumper life support.


The Arcturus idea is far fetched. Removing the ZPM will not be a very viable option; as RDA eloquently put it, "That sounds more like plan F, as in we're totally F....".

[Night Spring]

Interesting idea, however, I think you noticed that every time they wanted to evacuate and destroy Atlantis not to let it fall into Wraith, Genii, etc. , hands they had Caldwell in orbit. It seems unlikely that the puddlejumpers will be enough and you have to consider that the more people you pack into one the faster you deplete life support. Another point, how many EV suits do you think they have? They do not have enough to ease stress on puddle jumper life support.

The Arcturus idea is far fetched. Removing the ZPM will not be a very viable option; as RDA eloquently put it, "That sounds more like plan F, as in we're totally F....".

Oh, I agree about the "generating power using the energy project from M&MM" being far-fetched.

As for using puddlejumpers to extend life support, they already evacuated "non-essential personnel" to Apollo, so... We know that puddle jumpers can sustain a three-four person crew for at least 30 hours, from the trips to the satelite weapon in The Defiant One and Siege 1. Say you pack eight people to a jumper, that's still at least 15 hours. No idea how many EVs they may have, but I'm thinking they could get away with just putting Shep, McKay and maybe Zelenka in them for flying Atlantis to the nearest inhabitable planet. So McKay figures out their current position and where they need to go, they pack everyone into jumpers and turn off the shields, giving just enough power to the hyperdrive to take them to their destination... It could work. I think.

[P-90_177]

yeah I had not thought about that the replicators would prolly make computers that would require direct hand-in-the-head direct neural imput.

If you think of that it would actualy make a great deal more sense since it also makes the vessels way better in terms of evading enemy fire.
If you sense a bolt headed for your ship you can evade it faster if you use thoughts rather then buttons.

exactly. for the asurans it would make far more sense. this is how i think the asurans were able to fire drones in the return part 2. they went into the chair room and interfaced directly with the system.

[The Shadow]

I'm just happy to see Lorne in action!!!!!!

I sort of stopped consistently watching Stargate for a while now with the whole half a year long hiatus.........

I usually see the episodes with Lorne in it since I'm crazy about him.........

I thought the ep was definitely pretty good........doesn't exactly rank up with the Lost City two part in SG-1 for me.....but was still one of the best I've seen for Atlantis...........

The CGI is a completely different story there.......it was absolutely STUNNING!!!!! Atlantis flys!!!!

And the new doc, I actually like her!!! There was just something about her that made me believe.........

Now onward to S4!!!! Let's hope they can still keep up the action.............I'm guess it's Sam Carter and the Oddessey to the rescue.......I hear that Sam gets her own ship......who knows..........I'll be sticking around to watch as long as Lorne's on.........

[jeterfan]

But we've seen precisely this attitude/over-confidence from the Ancients in their design before - they didn't design the city to withstand any kind of force of nature because they knew they would always have the shield to rely on. So likewise, they didn't design the city to be airtight for space flight (and don't forget, the city is not intended to be a spaceship per se or to spend a lot of time in space - it is a city that can travel in space to move from one place to another) because they knew they would always have the shield available. They never saw any need to allow in their designs for a lack of power because they had the capability to provide as much power as they wanted/needed.


Originally Posted by Night Spring
The more I think about it, the more I don't buy Ellis' "I admire you, John" act. Yes, he *says* he admires Sheppard, but everything else we see him do is very "by the book." Why would someone who is as "by the book" as Ellis admire Shep, who tends to throw the book out the window if it contradicts what he thinks is right? It just doesn't add up.

Indeed.

I agree, I said that would be blazing new trails of stupidity, which we've seen with the Ancients before. It's sounds like we are in agreement, no? The Ancients were morons for not having a backup system in case sheilds failed. (It could be sloppy writing of the show, too, but we can agree to blame it on the Ancients...)
not to mention we haven't seen the rest of the show yet! There could be a backup system Rodney hasn't figured out yet, like the backup function from Rising where the sheild failure triggered the auto-rising sequence or whatever it was called

Also about Ellis: why can't we just take his word for it until he does something which shows otherwise? Like the way we treat people in real life -- take people at their word until they do something which leads you to doubt their true motives. I mean, speculation is fun, but only up to a certain point, not pages and pages of back and forth.

I mean, look at this post:

"Why would someone who is as "by the book" as Ellis admire Shep, who tends to throw the book out the window if it contradicts what he thinks is right? It just doesn't add up."

what the...? You never admire someone who is different from you??? What kind of leader only admires people who operate the same way he does? In the military, possibly a DEAD one, that's what kind. Who doesn't admire mavericks??? We wish we could rebel like they do even if we aren't able to carry it off ourselves. The discussion is just getting bogged down in weird reasoning...overanalysis, imho

Ellis is just a mystery for now. It's impossible without more data to say how he truly feels about shep and weir. All the controversy and speculation over Ellis is a SURE sign of a fun, new interesting character, something welcome. Let's just enjoy the anticipation, eh?

[jeterfan]

Wait, so you are saying you said the full "Lieutenant Colonel" every time you addressed or talked about the guy? So if you are in combat, and the enemy starts shooting at you, you'd shout, "Lieutenant Colonel Sheppard! We are taking fire!"?

When I was in the navy, we had Lieutenant JG (junior grade) or CDR (commander) and depending on how familiar I was with them or how cool they were (since I was enlisted,) things usually got shortened to LT (we'd call them "el-tee") or something similar...closest crisis I ever had where we'd have to yell suddenly would be a jet failing to launch or a missing part or problem before a launch, and then we'd yell, "LT" or "Commander." Often things were shortened to "`tenant Smith" or "`mander Smith." (like `til" instead of "until")

I found Ellis's ambiguity intriguing. It's actually much more difficult to write/play someone as ambiguous than as clearly one thing or another, so I'm sure this was done deliberately. There has to be some sort of conflict/question over the character, or the viewers won't be interested in finding out more about him.



It also depends very strongly on the branch. Ellis is Air Force too, right? That makes it more believable. If he were a Marine, I wouldn't buy it for a second. Can you hear Sumner calling Shep by his first name?

TOTALLY! Ellis' ambiguity makes it fun. We've seen him for all of 5 minutes, we JUST DON't KNOW THE GUY. Anyone who is capable of sizing up someone's true motivations/ulterior motives in 5/10 minutes should become a cop or something useful instead of a Gateworld maven.


Also TOTALLY about the Chair Force and laxity with military protocols. When SG1 first came out I thought it was so hilarious that they had the Chair Force portrayed as seriously doing all these black ops so well with all of the protocols; maybe they really are capable of it but I never saw that in my experiences with AF people. Ellis is pretty realistic to me in that regard with the protocol.

[the old briar pipe]

Ellis' ambiguity makes it fun. We've seen him for all of 5 minutes, we JUST DON't KNOW THE GUY. Anyone who is capable of sizing up someone's true motivations/ulterior motives in 5/10 minutes should become a cop or something useful instead of a Gateworld maven.

Actually, both of my jobs force me to be quite good at sizing people up. It's the "three-second rule" in my weekend workplace.

That said, actors make a living setting the rest of us up to believe something that isn't true. So although I "read" Ellis as surface-simple and depth-complex, that doesn't mean a thing.

Strangely, I liked Ellis right away. There's a special place in my heart for people who get things done, who take responsibility for their mistakes, and who speak their minds. On the other hand, even if he ends up as a clear-cut character, I can easily see his interests clashing with those of the expedition. So I would be in the odd position of liking someone who was about to screw my heroes over. That would be... kind of interesting to watch, actually. Though not that different from Michael.

Also TOTALLY about the Chair Force and laxity with military protocols. When SG1 first came out I thought it was so hilarious that they had the Chair Force portrayed as seriously doing all these black ops so well with all of the protocols; maybe they really are capable of it but I never saw that in my experiences with AF people. Ellis is pretty realistic to me in that regard with the protocol.

Thank you for that lovely confirmation of inter-force attitudes. I always saw that as the core of the Shep/Bates conflict (aside from the whole "shot his commanding officer" thing).

I'd love to hear what someone in the AF thinks about this, though your analysis matches what others have said.

[jeterfan]

Actually, both of my jobs force me to be quite good at sizing people up. It's the "three-second rule" in my weekend workplace.

Are you a bouncer? Or in auto sales?

That said, actors make a living setting the rest of us up to believe something that isn't true. So although I "read" Ellis as surface-simple and depth-complex, that doesn't mean a thing.

Yes. I agree about that. But you've obviously accepted the possibility that you may be wrong or right about Ellis: what gets me is the people here who seem to assume they've got Ellis all figured out already and that he's a lying flatterer. When all he's said basically is, "I've got my orders and there's no discussing them," "I don't want you to think I don't respect you," and "I admire you." I guess if people like to speculate so heavily, this is certainly the place to do it, but the trend is so towards the negative that it sucks out all the fun. Of course conflict is the engine of drama, we all know that. But why must Shep be at loggerheads with everyone who enters his chain of command? That begins to cast a strange light on Shep. Or on the writers: either his command is constantly full of jerks upon jerks, or Shep fights with anyone in command. Neither is idea is attractive to me since I'm pretty optimistic about people I meet, ficticious or otherwise. Unless there's a badguy-soundtrack playing when I meet them.

>sigh< I don't really have beef with anyone here; it's their right. Just all the self-assured, negative conjecture gets tired.

Strangely, I liked Ellis right away. There's a special place in my heart for people who get things done, who take responsibility for their mistakes, and who speak their minds.

I've come to treasure those facets even more since moving to Japan where it's say one thing to your face, then do something completely different. Why say "strangely."

inter-force attitudes. ... the core of the Shep/Bates conflict (aside from the whole "shot his commanding officer" thing).

LOL -- yeah, aside from THAT. (What did you think about Shep actually putting that in his report, btw? Did you fall off the couch and spill Tostitos everywhere like I did?)
I remember thinking once that it'd be funny if Bates, during one of his anti-Teyla rants, would've told Shep, "Get a haircut!"

I'd love to hear what someone in the AF thinks about this...

Me too...

[Night Spring]

Yes. I agree about that. But you've obviously accepted the possibility that you may be wrong or right about Ellis: what gets me is the people here who seem to assume they've got Ellis all figured out already and that he's a lying flatterer. When all he's said basically is, "I've got my orders and there's no discussing them," "I don't want you to think I don't respect you," and "I admire you." I guess if people like to speculate so heavily, this is certainly the place to do it, but the trend is so towards the negative that it sucks out all the fun. Of course conflict is the engine of drama, we all know that. But why must Shep be at loggerheads with everyone who enters his chain of command? That begins to cast a strange light on Shep. Or on the writers: either his command is constantly full of jerks upon jerks, or Shep fights with anyone in command. Neither is idea is attractive to me since I'm pretty optimistic about people I meet, ficticious or otherwise. Unless there's a badguy-soundtrack playing when I meet them.

Sorry if I came off like I think I couldn't be wrong about Ellis. Yes, I do know that depending on how he's developed next season, our initial impressions of him could be proved wrong. But so far, my impression has been, I don't feel he was genuine when he said the "I respect you" and "I admire you" lines. This has nothing to do with whether I think Shep is automatically going to conflict with every single superior officer he comes into contact with (actually, I don't think Shep is a "rebel for rebel's sake" type of guy -- he gets along perfectly well with O'Neill, and he's respectful to Caldwel and Landry unless they specifically give him orders he doesn't agree with), much less with some sort of propensity on my part to look upon every new character or person I meet with suspicion and negativity. It's just how *this particular character* happened to come off to me. And while the character may be redeemed as we find out more about him next season, the writing of this episode sucked on so many levels -- if I'm coming off judgemental, it's because of that. I'm being judgemental about the writing of the character, not the character himself, if that makes any sense?

[jeterfan]

But so far, my impression has been, I don't feel he was genuine when he said the "I respect you" and "I admire you" lines. This has nothing to do with whether I think Shep is automatically going to conflict with every single superior officer he comes into contact with ... It's just how *this particular character* happened to come off to me. And while the character may be redeemed as we find out more about him next season, the writing of this episode sucked on so many levels -- if I'm coming off judgemental, it's because of that. I'm being judgemental about the writing of the character, not the character himself, if that makes any sense?

Actually, yeah, that makes a lot of sense I think.... So it's more about speculating on where the writers are going with the character? It's a fine line sometimes, maybe.
To be totally honest, I'm sure I'm more sensitive than usual to the notion that a new character gives off bad vibes since the actor is black; if he'd been white, as is usually the case in sci-fi, I probably would've said, "Sheesh," and read another thread for a while, I guess. But since he's black, I kinda went off a bit. Also I blame PMS (TMI?)

In fact, after thinking about it a lot more, I'd rather Ellis turn out to be an awesome, stand-up guy whom Shep comes to view as the father he never had and then be killed off and fondly missed (he'd probably have to die since the show thrives on conflict) than turn out to be a two-faced jerk.

much less with some sort of propensity on my part to look upon every new character or person I meet with suspicion and negativity.

Gosh no, I was not trying to imply that at all but upon rereading my post I'm afraid I may have indeed implied that. Not my intention, since I don't know a thing about you!

I'd never have thought SGA could provoke in me such introspection.

[moguai]

Ok, so I've watched up to First Strike, I was incredibly excited, but some things I am very bothered with... For starters, some things that happen in this episode don't make any sense to me...

My spoiler notification for both questions are to give a rough guess as to what i'm talking about without spoiling anything, please only view that spoiler if you're willing to blow it for yourself and help me answer my curiousity...

1. Spoiler on "down under":
Submerging the city? I heard Rodney say he'd have to tweak the subroutines in order to make it work with one zpm... Wasn't it already set that way? I mean, in the time travel episode when wheir went back in time, and they swaped zpm's again and again to ensure power for the atlantis expidition, it was using one zpm at a time, and the city was under water...

2. Spoiler on "high fiving it":
How is the stardrive all of a sudden operational? I was under the impression that it was destroyed in "The Return, Part 2", you know, when they destroyed it to stop the asurans from moving Atlantis...

[Steve_the_Wraith]

1. Spoiler on "down under":
Submerging the city? I heard Rodney say he'd have to tweak the subroutines in order to make it work with one zpm... Wasn't it already set that way? I mean, in the time travel episode when wheir went back in time, and they swaped zpm's again and again to ensure power for the atlantis expidition, it was using one zpm at a time, and the city was under water...

The city was sunk before it was set to use one ZPM at a time. The city was already underwater when Weir arrived in "Before I Sleep" and she was the one who convinced Janus to modify how the city used the ZPMs

2. Spoiler on "high fiving it":
How is the stardrive all of a sudden operational? I was under the impression that it was destroyed in "The Return, Part 2", you know, when they destroyed it to stop the asurans from moving Atlantis...

They repaired it, the damage from "The Return" mustn't have been as severe as first indicated