Vengeance (319)

[DrBravo2]

My problem isn't Carson, bu that we have third ep in a row with similar corridors, basically same setting and so on .... Ark, Submersion and vengeance ... what's the difference? ooooh ... there was Michael .... weeeeeeee...

i'll jump off the cliff since i am ill informed shrilling lemming ....


this ep was boring. period. nothing new there .... chenage Wraith Queen for Michael and what you have? 3x18 .... change that for _random_civilization_that_wanted_to_survive_wraith and what we have? .. The Ark...


Ohhhh ... this really gives great hope for S4.

NOT!!!

You're the OTHER half of the thread then.

[localfocus]

My problem isn't Carson, bu that we have third ep in a row with similar corridors, basically same setting and so on .... Ark, Submersion and vengeance ... what's the difference? ooooh ... there was Michael .... weeeeeeee...

i'll jump off the cliff since i am ill informed shrilling lemming ....


this ep was boring. period. nothing new there .... chenage Wraith Queen for Michael and what you have? 3x18 .... change that for _random_civilization_that_wanted_to_survive_wraith and what we have? .. The Ark...


Ohhhh ... this really gives great hope for S4.

NOT!!!

It wasn't the most original idea, no, but I think it was well executed. It was the pacing and the integration of everyone, without people being OOC that impressed me the most. No one was stupid, they lost because they were overwhelmed, not by making stupid mistakes they know better to make like last week. I'll settle for so little these days. Though I'm with you on the corridors, every civilization has those, the Hoffans, Genii, Sateda. They need new sets Though they did retcon that in "The Game" visually, I want something different.

[SGAFan]

Well, *shrugs* I really liked it. Very fun to sit and just be waiting for something to jump out at them. *G* Very cool to see Michael again and to have some reprocussions to previous decisions (such as the experiments in the first place) come back and errr bite them I know I've complained at the lack of fallout from previous decisions before, its good to see a dangling plot line grabbed and used.

I thought the beginning with Rodney and Ronon was freaking hilarious! You knew Rodney was going to eventually look away, but when it happened it was still funny! LOL

I really REALLY liked Michael and just the action of the episode.

good ep! Can't wait for next weeks and next season

[Mitchell82]

All I can say is wow. Two of my favorite scifi programs melded into one. Alien and Stargate. This was done very well, you could believe the "bugs" were real b/c they wernt CG. Very nice twist seeing Michael "finishing" our experiments and nice mentioning of the morality, and desperate measures issues. Not too bumed about no mentioning of Carson. This was done well and hope to see more of Michael. 9/10

[Alipeeps]

My initial thoughts on the ep after first viewing:

Gotta say – I loved it!

First of all – it was so totally a remake of Aliens and I loved that! Hey, it’s a good film and one of my fave sci-fi movies! I chortled when Sheppard made reference to the Alien movies but he was talking about the first movie, Alien, whereas this ep was so Aliens – think about it:

• settlers mysteriously disappeared and found all piled together in one place, all dead
• marines being sent in to find the missing settlers
• scary bug-like creature roaming the corridors and the good guys tracking their life signs
• scary creatures using air vents/spaces between the floors etc to move around and get in and out of sealed off areas
• finding the breeding ground of eggs/pods and blowing it up/setting fire to it

Lots of interaction to enjoy here:

• I loved the sparring scene at the start with Ronon and McKay - yes it was funny but also a nice indication that those two spend time together outside of missions and that McKay is changing and growing as a character - much as he didn't seem to be enjoying it (or getting any better at it according to Ronon! ), it's something new and interesting for him to choose to want to learn physical combat skills
• Those who have complained of late that we never see McKay and Teyla spending time together; well now we have and it was good. I enjoyed that whole conversation of theirs - in Stargate terms, that was pretty deep stuff!
• Nice to see a) finally a mention of the retrovirus project being a mistake and having turned out SO bad and b) Ronon being the one to mention it – pointing out that he’d been against it from the start. I loved seeing Ronon really step up and not just blindly go along with the Earth team’s preconceptions/ideas but get in John’s face and tell him it was WRONG.
• Interesting to finally see some discussion on the wraith as a culture and how much – or little – we know about them. Not only things like their reproductive methods but matters like what their lives are like.. what kind of like Michael might have had before we did what we did to him. Nice to see that whole grey area there actually being acknowledged.

I enjoyed the sense of tension of them searching the corridors with monsters after them etc – it was like a good old-fashioned scary movie! My main complaint on that front was that there were not enough repercussions.. I realise the gates are family-oriented shows but still... considering how dangerous and vicious these creatures were supposed to be.. Sheppard and co got into physical fights with them on several occasions and the only resulting injury was a small scratch to McKay's neck!

I'm also, I have to say, a little sick of seeing Teyla being captured/taken hostage/taken control of etc. I mean.. The Ark, Submersion and now Vengeance! I know we have complained that Teyla needs more development and more to do etc but having her do the same thing over and over does not equal development. It's actually making me start to get a little bit fed up of Teyla and I've always liked her character, even when she doesn't have much to do. Someone in the whump thread has actually posited and interesting - if worrying - theory; that TPTB whump Teyla because they don't know what else to do with her. *sigh* So they make her the victim needing saving every week...

And speaking of whump - in my, admittedly biased, opinion, we missed a wonderful opportunity here given Sheppard's history with the bugs. Given his hatred of them (and I would love to see that expressed/explored in more than
just jokey remarks to the effect that "I hate those bugs"!) and his past experiences etc with both the bug and the retrovirus.. how much more tense/scary etc would it have been to have Sheppard strapped to the table with an iratus bug slowly crawling towards his neck? Teyla can imagine how awful it is to be attacked by one of those things... Sheppard *knows*.

The other thing that bugged me a little here is - yeah, I'm gonna say it - the lack of mention of Carson. Now I am not expecting any huge amount of follow-up from TPTB on this, I really am not and I don't feel that they are doing a terrible disservice to his memory by not referencing him, I guess I've just gotten too cynical to expect that. BUT this entire episode revolved around the retrovirus that HE created, around what HE did to Michael etc etc. It not only would have been natural for his name to be mentioned but it actually seemed like they were deliberately avoiding doing so - the careful construction of Michael's references to what "your people" did to him etc and him carrying on "your" work on the retrovirus etc. He knows full well who is/was responsible for the retrovirus and he made damn sure he got personal with Beckett about it in Misbegotten so it does kind of jar now that he never even mentions him (he doesn't know he's dead, after all!).

It just kinda felt like TPTB were trying too hard to carefully phrase things so that his name wasn't mentioned cos if it was, they would have had to devote a moment or two of screentime that they could have spent on action to portraying some response to that on behalf of the team. (I actually don't believe this is the case - in JF's case certainly, he is amazing at portraying with eyes/face alone the thoughts/feelings of Sheppard and could easily have shown a spark of regret in his face even whilst continuing any conversation with Michael).

I did enjoy the stand-off between Sheppard and Michael and it was intruiging to get another glimpse of the rather more cold-blooded side of Sheppard's character. There were also many good lines in this ep – particularly memorable was Ronon’s “Actually I was thinking blow it up – but your idea’s better.”

[Mitchell82]

My initial thoughts on the ep after first viewing:

Gotta say – I loved it!

First of all – it was so totally a remake of Aliens and I loved that! Hey, it’s a good film and one of my fave sci-fi movies! I chortled when Sheppard made reference to the Alien movies but he was talking about the first movie, Alien, whereas this ep was so Aliens – think about it:

• settlers mysteriously disappeared and found all piled together in one place, all dead
• marines being sent in to find the missing settlers
• scary bug-like creature roaming the corridors and the good guys tracking their life signs
• scary creatures using air vents/spaces between the floors etc to move around and get in and out of sealed off areas
• finding the breeding ground of eggs/pods and blowing it up/setting fire to it

Lots of interaction to enjoy here:

• I loved the sparring scene at the start with Ronon and McKay - yes it was funny but also a nice indication that those two spend time together outside of missions and that McKay is changing and growing as a character - much as he didn't seem to be enjoying it (or getting any better at it according to Ronon! ), it's something new and interesting for him to choose to want to learn physical combat skills
• Those who have complained of late that we never see McKay and Teyla spending time together; well now we have and it was good. I enjoyed that whole conversation of theirs - in Stargate terms, that was pretty deep stuff!
• Nice to see a) finally a mention of the retrovirus project being a mistake and having turned out SO bad and b) Ronon being the one to mention it – pointing out that he’d been against it from the start. I loved seeing Ronon really step up and not just blindly go along with the Earth team’s preconceptions/ideas but get in John’s face and tell him it was WRONG.
• Interesting to finally see some discussion on the wraith as a culture and how much – or little – we know about them. Not only things like their reproductive methods but matters like what their lives are like.. what kind of like Michael might have had before we did what we did to him. Nice to see that whole grey area there actually being acknowledged.

I enjoyed the sense of tension of them searching the corridors with monsters after them etc – it was like a good old-fashioned scary movie! My main complaint on that front was that there were not enough repercussions.. I realise the gates are family-oriented shows but still... considering how dangerous and vicious these creatures were supposed to be.. Sheppard and co got into physical fights with them on several occasions and the only resulting injury was a small scratch to McKay's neck!

I'm also, I have to say, a little sick of seeing Teyla being captured/taken hostage/taken control of etc. I mean.. The Ark, Submersion and now Vengeance! I know we have complained that Teyla needs more development and more to do etc but having her do the same thing over and over does not equal development. It's actually making me start to get a little bit fed up of Teyla and I've always liked her character, even when she doesn't have much to do. Someone in the whump thread has actually posited and interesting - if worrying - theory; that TPTB whump Teyla because they don't know what else to do with her. *sigh* So they make her the victim needing saving every week...

And speaking of whump - in my, admittedly biased, opinion, we missed a wonderful opportunity here given Sheppard's history with the bugs. Given his hatred of them (and I would love to see that expressed/explored in more than
just jokey remarks to the effect that "I hate those bugs"!) and his past experiences etc with both the bug and the retrovirus.. how much more tense/scary etc would it have been to have Sheppard strapped to the table with an iratus bug slowly crawling towards his neck? Teyla can imagine how awful it is to be attacked by one of those things... Sheppard *knows*.

The other thing that bugged me a little here is - yeah, I'm gonna say it - the lack of mention of Carson. Now I am not expecting any huge amount of follow-up from TPTB on this, I really am not and I don't feel that they are doing a terrible disservice to his memory by not referencing him, I guess I've just gotten too cynical to expect that. BUT this entire episode revolved around the retrovirus that HE created, around what HE did to Michael etc etc. It not only would have been natural for his name to be mentioned but it actually seemed like they were deliberately avoiding doing so - the careful construction of Michael's references to what "your people" did to him etc and him carrying on "your" work on the retrovirus etc. He knows full well who is/was responsible for the retrovirus and he made damn sure he got personal with Beckett about it in Misbegotten so it does kind of jar now that he never even mentions him (he doesn't know he's dead, after all!).

It just kinda felt like TPTB were trying too hard to carefully phrase things so that his name wasn't mentioned cos if it was, they would have had to devote a moment or two of screentime that they could have spent on action to portraying some response to that on behalf of the team. (I actually don't believe this is the case - in JF's case certainly, he is amazing at portraying with eyes/face alone the thoughts/feelings of Sheppard and could easily have shown a spark of regret in his face even whilst continuing any conversation with Michael).

I did enjoy the stand-off between Sheppard and Michael and it was intruiging to get another glimpse of the rather more cold-blooded side of Sheppard's character. There were also many good lines in this ep – particularly memorable was Ronon’s “Actually I was thinking blow it up – but your idea’s better.”

This was a great ep. The Carson thing didnt bother me as much as you but I agree on most of your points. Loved the standoff too and I hope we see more of Michael/John soon!

[silence]

don't get me wrong, but last 3 eps had similar sets.
i don't think they were bad, but third in a row?

sorry. i just wish TPTB had more imagination.
this would be good ep .. IF!!! .. there was no The Ark and Submersion

[FoolishPleasure]

First of all – it was so totally a remake of Aliens and I loved that! Hey, it’s a good film and one of my fave sci-fi movies! :. . .

That has been the problem all season. TPTB are either snurtching from the SG1 script vault, or they are "borrowing" from movies. That they have to "copy" tells me one thing - they can't come up with anything new on their own. Its just bad writing all the way around.

I'm also, I have to say, a little sick of seeing Teyla being captured/taken hostage/taken control of etc. I mean.. The Ark, Submersion and now Vengeance! It's actually making me start to get a little bit fed up of Teyla and I've always liked her character, even when she doesn't have much to do. Someone in the whump thread has actually posited and interesting - if worrying - theory; that TPTB whump Teyla because they don't know what else to do with her. *sigh* So they make her the victim needing saving every week...

You forgot "Phantoms" too. Unfortunately, Teyla has become the poster child for "Mary Sue". She isn't my fav character, but she certainly doesn't deserve this treatment. They can't deal with Weir either. This just goes back to the old argument that these guys can't write strong female characters.

The other thing that bugged me a little here is - yeah, I'm gonna say it - the lack of mention of Carson.

You, and a lot of other people.

[Willow'sCat]

I really liked this one, and a hint of the soft rest is already beginning to show itself, the talk between Sheppard and Dex about the experiments was a good start but I am still pissed that Sheppard won't admit it verbally that it was a huge fraking mistake (although was Ronon really that dead set against them or was it more that he argued to just kill them all!). At least Weir is pretty much there now admitting it is all their fault, they are solely responsible for this frak up. But it is all rather late in the piece for me, the damage is done, I am not sure any amount of resetting is going to change that.

I did like the Ronon/Rodney sparing, even if once again the writer/s can't seem to write anything with McKay without going to the "make 'em laugh" clown school of entertainment. And was that the same outfit David uses in A Dog's Breakfast?

Is it me or was Teyla flirting with Rodney? OK just me then.

I had no problem with Teyla being captured, she and Michael have a history it was always going to be Teyla. Sure I would like less boobs but hey men run the show, immature men apparently who think boobs are to be seen not protected behind clothing and vests. Just how much time did Michael take undressing Teyla? And why?

Giant bugs! Well I am a Doctor Who fan from way back so I am kinda able to deal with that without cringing *too much* two of my fave Who eps had giant bugs! I have to say it works better when you don't see the monster and I think it would have been better here to not have had a man in a suit...

Oh and Chuck! Chuck got some lines!

Carson might have been nice in this but I get it now it was never about him, he may have created the virus but it was Sheppard and the others who gave the orders to use it, Carson was a just a small player in this frak up! Michael obviously agrees and may I say CT did a great job with the little he had to work with, I want more Michael.

[HyperCaz]

firstly, this Beckett fan was grumpy, not only with the lack of mention, but the fact that people seemed to be stealing his lines (eg. McKay saying "my dear") maybe I'm overreacting but it was just icing on the cake of my ANGER!

...that aside, loved the opening scene. Giggled insanely...were they channelling ADB?? I wonder where Rodney got that outift from hmmm...

The "Alien" idea was good, methinks, and I actually felt a little creeped out for once. Hmm can Chuck seriously not tell what sounds like Michael's voice by now....?

Despite the obvious lack of the man I love (lol), I really liked this episode. Although I am really sad that the volcano people bit the dust. Was half expecting to see Norina's corpse lol...but I guess if you gotta tie up loose ends haha. Glad to see that people are finally waking up to how bad the intial retrovirus stuff was.

'course the episode and story arc could reaaaaaaally do with a certain someone...

[lunarleviathan]

This should have been a strong episode but it was pretty average. The super bugs were boring. The start of the episode, wandering around not knowing what was there, it was too similar a premise to the previous episode, Submersion.

Also, knowing that Michael was experimenting on other planets and has an army of super bugs, why didn't Shep try to scoop him up in the Dart? He was stood right next to Ronan and Teyla and didn't see it coming in time to react. Illogical.

Highly average, especially coming off the back of Submersion which was a FAR better episode with a few to many similarities.

[Alipeeps]

Wow. I've read through the rest of this thread now and gotta say I'm pretty amazed at some of the "discussion". it's one thing to watch an ep and form an opinion on it and discuss its relative merits and/or lack of them.

It's another thing entirely to dismiss an ep out of hand and refuse to even watch it based on one tiny facet of the show - that a certain character doesn't get mentioned or that another character's bosoms are even slightly featured!

This was a great ep. The Carson thing didnt bother me as much as you but I agree on most of your points. Loved the standoff too and I hope we see more of Michael/John soon!

Oh it didn't bother me that much really - just something that occured to me whilst thinking about/discussing the ep. As I said, I'm not expecting or demanding that there be mention of Carson... it did just strike me as a little odd that in this ep they seemed to be going out of their way to not mention him...

Giant bugs! Well I am a Doctor Who fan from way back so I am kinda able to deal with that without cringing *too much* two of my fave Who eps had giant bugs! I have to say it works better when you don't see the monster and I think it would have been better here to not have had a man in a suit...

Well they did kinda do that a little - there was in interview a while back (sorry can't remember which one off-hand - it may have been one with DH actually) where it was mentioned that JF is a big fan of the filming style where you don't see the monster in full, you just get glimpses of a body part etc etc and that it's more scary to not show it in full and let the audience's imagination fill in the gaps, and that he had suggested this style of filming for this episode and that they'd decided to go with it. And thinking about it they never did really show us the monster in full.. just close up glimpses of body parts and seeing it in silhoutte or from a distance etc. Although i think really the set/lighting etc needed to be darker for that to really work as intended..

[g.o.d]

It was funny.

Imagine this:you're walking with your team in the abandoned underground complex where is definetly something/somebody what/who wants to kill you/eat you/have a sex with you(remember B5:Crusade and that hyperspace creatures and Excalibur ship ) and the first thing you do is to split up the team a every member has to go alone in the dark corridors.

I would say "f*** you guys I won't go alone"

[watcher652]

Did anyone catch what McKay said in that "Ropes was why I got bronze instead of silver in . . .? program? I couldn't make it out.

Participaction. Or ParticipACTION, actually, but I digress.

It was a government mandated physical fitness program run in Canadian public schools during the 70s and 80s (and possibly the 90s). Rope climbing wasn't a part of it when I had to participate, but I guess they could have changed it before my time.

I found it ironic that McKay said that to Teyla, since DH and RL are the only actors of the "main four" who actually would have conceivably known what ParticipACTION was.

Thanks for that explanation. That reminds me when Rodney mentioned in The Return 2 that "Well, I did win a Sears Drama Festival award when I was a kid." I had to look that up on the web to find out it's a real Ontario-wide festival held in Toronto, where DH is from. Hmm, I wonder if DH actually did win an drama award or that bronze ParticipACTION medal in real life. I remember reading somewhere that DH took Tae Kwan Do as a child, so that could explain the yellow belt. That would be interesting, making things from DH's real life part of Rodney's backstory. Just like both JF and Sheppard like Johnny Cash and surfing and golf. I'm just waiting for the skateboard to show up.

Rodney making a cultural reference that Teyla or Ronon wouldn't undertand is just Rodney as usual.

[Alipeeps]

Hmm can Chuck seriously not tell what sounds like Michael's voice by now....?

Chuck never spoke to anyone. They received a "data transmission" from the marines. It was sent as a report, not an in person conversation.