The Ark (316)

[Alipeeps]

I didn't like this episode and don't plan to watch it again. It was just boring imo, I found myself thinking of other things to do whilst watching it and even picked up a book at one point. It also bugged me how they made the lone survivor guy out to be the bad guy, he was trying to save his whole civilisation and the team didn't give a damn so they have him hold teyla hostage and now he's a bad guy. It also bugged me how Sheppard had double standards, one minute there's no time to save them we have to leave now, next second teyla's trapped in the computer and they have all the time in the world to save her. It does answer the question though if sheppard could save 1000 random people or a friend who would he choose or in this case a lot more than 1000 people. IMO the team came out as the bad guys in the end simply because of their selfishness, well that's just what I thought anyway.

Hardly. As previously discussed in this thread, Sheppard made a desperate, reckless attempt to save Teyla's life, knowing he would probably not survive himself and, in fact, probably not be able to save anyone either. But for his friend he was willing to try. For 1,000 people he has never met, who exist only as stored data, whilst he would have liked to have helpled, no he was not willing to face almost certain death. And I can't really blame him. It's no different really to his decision in Letters from Pegasus... as he tells Teyla in that episode.. "Part of [military] training is knowing who you can save and who you can't.

[kirmit]

Hardly. As previously discussed in this thread, Sheppard made a desperate, reckless attempt to save Teyla's life, knowing he would probably not survive himself and, in fact, probably not be able to save anyone either. But for his friend he was willing to try. For 1,000 people he has never met, who exist only as stored data, whilst he would have liked to have helpled, no he was not willing to face almost certain death. And I can't really blame him. It's no different really to his decision in Letters from Pegasus... as he tells Teyla in that episode.. "Part of [military] training is knowing who you can save and who you can't.

No matter how you put it, it is still was still a selfish move, he was willing to leave 1000's of people to die, yet when someone he was emotionally attached to got involved he suddenly cared. You cannot be a hero when you have such double standards, the right thing to do would be save the 1000's of lifes no matter what happened to you and not suddenly change your mind when your friend is involved. Sheppards lack of care for the 1000's of people was the only thing that made me see him as the bad guy in the end, yes he cared somewhat but had teyla not been involved he would've let them all die.

[nonniemous]

(snips excellent review)
We got Beckett and Lorne in this episode, which made me happy to no end. Long live Lorne!!! Beckett, while I was extremely happy to see him, caused me a bit more confusion. Shouldn't we be bringing someone besides the CMO for rescue missions?.

No more than the Military Commander and Chief scientist should be out exploring the galaxy. ST:TNG got this one thing right, the First Officer led the away teams, not the Captain of the ship. But like all the characters have to be unrealistically expert at far too many subjects, you can't be bringing in new characters every week for these various necessary spots. Much as I agree that the CMO isn't necessarily a logical choice for a rescue mission, I'd much rather see Beckett out there than some no-name medic. (Hmmm...maybe that's how we can save Beckett's role in season 4, demote him to field medic!)

I found it quite interesting that we know Beckett has the gene, not sure about Lorne, but they had a "no-name" pilot for the Jumper this time. Flashback to "GUP", I suppose.

Ken, kudos for even braving the Lion's Den here. I thoroughly enjoyed this episode, and I loved that once again we are seeing just how desperate the people of Pegasus are to escape the Wraith. (Though I did notice none of the Atlantis folks bothered to inform Jamus the Wraith were still very much around.) This is the kind of SGA episode I like to see, and it was wonderful to see everyone getting in on the action, even Beckett. Especially it was wonderful to see Teyla given such good scenes; RL was really chewing them up and it was fun to watch!

[starfox]

No matter how you put it, it is still was still a selfish move, he was willing to leave 1000's of people to die, yet when someone he was emotionally attached to got involved he suddenly cared. You cannot be a hero when you have such double standards, the right thing to do would be save the 1000's of lifes no matter what happened to you and not suddenly change your mind when your friend is involved. Sheppards lack of care for the 1000's of people was the only thing that made me see him as the bad guy in the end, yes he cared somewhat but had teyla not been involved he would've let them all die.

I would've, too. As people have previously stated, before rematerialization, those 1000 people are just data. It's very difficult to care as much about an abstract concert as you do about a person who you've worked with and had standing right in front of you.

Also, Sheppard didn't actually think he could save Teyla. It was a suicide mission. He knew it, McKay knew it, Lorne knew it, etc. You could see it in the way they cautioned him against doing it, though they know and love Teyla as well and also don't want to see her die. You can see it in the surprise in his face when he lands and the relief in McKay's. You can hear it in McKay's voice when he makes the joke about not taking the bet. It's in Weir voice when she tells him to have his head examined. It was dumb luck that Sheppard and his precious cargo survived; it had nothing to do with skill. The reason he didn't do it before was because he thought there was no way in hell it was going to work.

Sheppard didn't do it to be a hero. He did it because he wouldn't have been able to live with himself if Teyla had died and he hadn't taken the chance.

It's like Herick said; if they hadn't rematerialized him, he would have died to happy thoughts of his people and his family. Even if he hadn't been able to save the data, the only difference between Sheppard waking them and them waking on their own is that the leader was given the chance to be saved, because I'm guessing that if Herick had woken on his own and discovered the absence of the second shuttle, he would have followed the same suicidal process as he did in the episode, and there wouldn't have been even the memory of the people.

[starfox]

No more than the Military Commander and Chief scientist should be out exploring the galaxy. ST:TNG got this one thing right, the First Officer led the away teams, not the Captain of the ship. But like all the characters have to be unrealistically expert at far too many subjects, you can't be bringing in new characters every week for these various necessary spots. Much as I agree that the CMO isn't necessarily a logical choice for a rescue mission, I'd much rather see Beckett out there than some no-name medic. (Hmmm...maybe that's how we can save Beckett's role in season 4, demote him to field medic!)

You're right, I just have selective suspension of disbelief. It's why I don't like the idea of Elizabeth off-world (c'mon, like the IOA wouldn't have a field day with the new leader if Weir gets killed), but can deal with Sheppard's addiction to suicide missions.

(gives small squee for Carson being awesome and for Teyla using everyone's first name)

[BuggyMan]

I liked the episode.
But I was utterly disappointed that we didn't get to see how the people were actually freed from the device.

[Pegasus_SGA]

I know i'm playing catch up, so I apologies in advance if everyone has answered this points.

I thought the banter and Rodney's doom and gloom predictions etc were great in this ep - to me, it was just right. McKay's responsibility in rescueing his team, he refuses, wanting to stay right where he is, at the risk of his own life, because he will not leave them. Wonderful.

Sorry to cut your post hon. Just wanted to say that I agree with you completely. I think they got McKay's snarkiness and caring side exactly balanced. McKay always reacts to certain death a certain way, but when it comes to being there when the chips are down, he will do everything he can to save them even at the expense of his own life. I know some people are critical of him and his level of....shall we say zeal But when push comes to shove he delivers what is expected of him. Each of the team would do exactly the same thing if the position were reversed. And for me it shows that they have all bonded to a point where sometimes emotions overide logic. And this is a big step for McKay given that he uses logic to overide his emotions, lol...quite a turn around i'd say.

I also really enjoyed the scene where Sheppard was going to the shuttle. I thought it was very in character for both of them - it was a definite goodbye scene and I loved the almost hopeless tone in McKay's voice where he asked Sheppard not to do this, knowing full well that Sheppard was of course going to. And I love that Sheppard deflected the moment with a slightly snarky comment.. because that's what these guys do. They have a close friendship but they don't discuss emotions and icky stuff like that... It all goes unsaid and it's what they don't say that is wonderful....

Hehehe, yeah it's definately a man thing *g* and to be honest, words in those sort of situations aren't always necessary, and it was handled exactly right between these two.

Gotta agree I also loved ROnon's perceptiveness on the situation with Herick and Jamus. A lovely touch.

I think, because Ronon has been there, it made that moment even more poignant; because he was speaking from experience. He lost his family in a similar way, and I think he put himself in their respective positions and that's why he said what he did.

I don't think he necessarily wanted to kill the team - he told Teyla to take her friends and leave. What he wanted to do was kill himself, definitely kill Jamus, whom he blamed for the loss of his family, and to destroy his life's work - a life's work he felt had been wasted because he had been betrayed and denied the one thing that had led him to devote his entire life to the project. The team just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Well said. Distraught and irrational people do very strange things. He made a choice that he didn't want to live without his family and take with him the man that robbed him of what he thought was going to be a new start for his people. I don't even think that when he made the decision to kill himself that he was thinking of killing himself, those who are on teh path to self destruction rarely think rationally

Why is Rodney such a moron in this episode? Especially since it came after "Tao".

I'm really sick and tired of people whining about rehashes and whatnot. The only similarity between this and "Lifeboat" is that they both featured people in stasis.

Everything, everything else was different. More on my thoughts later when I've finished watching the episode.

I'm going to respond to your moron bit further on. Personally, I thought he reacted as 'Rodney', lol. he was snarky in life and death situations, and there for his friends when they needed him.

I agree, I get annoyed when people compare SGA and SG1.

I also loved that McKay asked Sheppard not to go. Of course, he knew Sheppard would take no notice, but he had to try, and did. I thought that showed a lot of character growth for him, because his plea was so heartfelt, in my eyes. I also chuckled at the way Rodney asked how he could collect on the wager of a weeks pay if Sheppard died, and Sheppard's comment about how nice it was that Rodney cared was hysterical!

Yep, I agree with you here to, I think ToR has made him look into himself a bit more and feel secure enough to say to his friends when he's worried about them. A huge step for him ROFL loved the bet on teh wages, he really is going to have nothing if he keeps that up, lol.

Cracking jokes and being sarcastic, overbearing and boasty when talking to a guy who just found out he's lost his family.

BTW, who would build a space shuttle whose windows break upon bumping into stuff?!

Some people just don't know how to react to those situations. Some people laugh at situations like that, some just avoid you, for others they make snarky comments and act sarcastically. It's just a nervous reaction to a strange situation, which Rodney doesn't feel comfortable in. He's only just learning to let his gaurd down with his friends, I think we're asking a bit much for him to do the same with strangers.

I find John's actions hypocritical as well. Fine, they don't leave their own behind, but, heck, entire civilization of a thousand people here about to get lost forever. What does John want to do to try and save them? Nothing. Because they'd have to risk maybe dying.

Then Teyla gets trapped. And then suddenly he's willing to risk his life on what amounts to a suicidal mission to save her. Some hero. One friend's life is obviously infinitely more important than those of 1000 innocent strangers.

Now there's an ethics question if ever I heard one Would you save one member of your family or a hundred strangers... very hard to answer. I have to say, i'm on the fence with this one...so unlike me I know. But Sheppards character is such that he will do anything for his friends, he's already said that to Teyla. Sheppard won't leave someone behind, it's his natural insticts, this is his family and he'd do whatever he could to protect them. Sheppard is a very loyal person, and don't forget he didn't know these people, and had absolutely no obligations to them apart from a moral stand point. Teyla was one of his own.

Ah, you see they didn't have enough time to try and save everyone in stasis, as Sheppard said to Jamus (sp?). As Lorne said, they had a short time before the moon would be burned on re-entry, so they needed to leave quickly. Why should Sheppard risk his life for a 1,000 people he doesn't know? That's not his job. His self-sacrificial tendencies only go so far... His job was to get everyone on the team out safely and quickly. Of course, once Teyla was in stasis he wouldn't leave a team member behind, so, even if that meant his own death, he'd try everything in his power to save her, just as he would any member of the team.

Hehehe, yep I agree, he can't possibly be expected to save everyone all the time, but he will do whatever it takes to ensure his team come back after every mission even if that means sacrificing himself in the process. If the roles were reversed, each of them would do the same thing (imo).

How hard would it have been to at least try to carry the thingie to the ship? That's like asking why American soldiers should save 1000 innocent Iraqi civilians if the area they're in is about to be bombed by terrorists.

Why should 5 American soldiers risk their superior lives to save 1000 innocent civilians, whereof 200 are children?

There was no way to power the source. Sure it was possible that McKay could have conceivably worked his magic, but it was a long shot. And the chances of Sheppard actually surviving the landing was equally a long shot, but given the options I think he did the right thing, do or die trying

We're not talking about what's part of their job here. We're talking about what's right. 1000 innocents. Say that out loud, 1000 innocents.

Put yourself in his position save a family member or save 1000 strangers, what would you do in that situation, and be honest with yourself. It's one of those mysteries of life, you never know what you would do in that situation until you're in that situation.

While I'd have qualms about it because I'm no hero, I could see myself possibly risk my life saving them. 1000 innocents, after all.

John's a great hero. He risks his life to save people all the time. Heck, he saved the Athosians back when all he knew was that they had a weird head-bowing ritual and wore animal skin.

And all of a sudden he has no problems leaving 1000 people to die (heck, afterwards, he was still mad at what's-his-name for taking Teyla hostage). It almost seems slightly out of character.

The plan being last minute, I can buy.

It's not about being a hero, it's going with your emotions, and emotions aren't always filled with pure logic, as I said above. We've had the luxury to look at the situation from a whole, and assess what we would have done in their position, which took us what.... a few hours say to mull it over, maybe? If you only had a minute to decide, would your answer be any different, particularly if it was a family member?

[FoolishPleasure]

No matter how you put it, it is still was still a selfish move, he was willing to leave 1000's of people to die, yet when someone he was emotionally attached to got involved he suddenly cared. You cannot be a hero when you have such double standards, the right thing to do would be save the 1000's of lifes no matter what happened to you and not suddenly change your mind when your friend is involved. Sheppards lack of care for the 1000's of people was the only thing that made me see him as the bad guy in the end, yes he cared somewhat but had teyla not been involved he would've let them all die.

Exactly. Which is why commanding officers are not allowed to become romantically involved with someone on their team or under their command. It clouds their judgement. If TPTB intend for Shep and Teyla to have a relationship of sorts, then Teyla cannot be on his team. She could serve under Lorne, or Weir, but she would never be allowed to work with "her man". Its completely unethical.

[FoolishPleasure]

In your opinion, those episodes mentioned "needed" explanations from the writer. In my opinion, they didn't. I enjoyed Ken's insight into the conception of the story and how he wrote and developed certain aspects of the story but I didn't need that information to thoroughly enjoy the episode.

It wasn't "my" opinion. Ken is the one who came in here saying he wanted to clarify what happened in the episode because a lot of viewers didn't understand how Sheppard survived. All I (and others) said was that it doesn't look good when the writers have to come out and explain what happened instead of just writing a better script in the first place.

I didn't need explanation for this episode as I just figured the plot hole in the end was the usual cop out by the writing staff.

[starfox]

Exactly. Which is why commanding officers are not allowed to become romantically involved with someone on their team or under their command. It clouds their judgement. If TPTB intend for Shep and Teyla to have a relationship of sorts, then Teyla cannot be on his team. She could serve under Lorne, or Weir, but she would never be allowed to work with "her man". Its completely unethical.

Let me preface this by saying that I am in no way a John/Teyla shipper. In fact, it's one of my least favorite pairings.

That said, this is how TBTB could (and probably would) handwave it away if, heavens forbid, they decided to go that route. With the level of dedication to his team that John has shown, while a romantic relationship between them would definitely make a difference, it wouldn't be a huge one. It's like he and Teyla say in that last scene in the infirmary; he would have done it for anyone on the team. He would have *****ed about it more afterwards had it been, say, Rodney, but he still would have done it. Sheppard has no judgement to begin with when it comes to his team. It proves him to be a less than rational human being, but it makes for good t.v.

[SGAFan]

Excellent analogy.


Oh, right, he risked his life for the people in "Inferno". Almost forgot about them. So why not for these?

Both Herick and Jamus had been in that thing for the same amount of time and they were both alive and well (well, when they were rematerialized) so the "Maybe it's broken"-angle doesn't fit .

It's still weird since he was perfectly willing to risk his life for the people in "Rising", "Epiphany" (*shiver*) and "Inferno" but here, when he could save 1000 people, the biggest number so far, he chose not to... until Teyla got captured.

Well, in Inferno, they had no other way out short of the Orion, so they may as well take everyone with them as well? In this ep, they had a means of escape for them, without the module. I see it as sort of a different set of circumstances. Even Shep going back for the "last group" he was looking for Ronon and Teyla as well.

As far as Rising was concerned, whether or not he got along wtih Sumner or Bates or any of them, they were his people... and that does fall into the "not leaving people behind" Would he have done it for just the Athosians? Hmmm... not sure on that (at that point in the series)

[SGAFan]

Uh ... that's not actually true. About what the senior team leader does? That's not true in the field.

I can't speak for every one in the military, but I can speak for myself and my senior officers taught me that if you're a leader, your job is to do everything you can (and then some) to bring your team home.

If there's a single blessed chance and you leave behind your team member for fear of personal risk, you can do that, you can even get away with it, but you will lose credibility as a leader.

Having a reputation as leader who won't leave a "person" behind is considered high praise.

If it's worth doing, and IMO it is worth doing if there's a chance you can save the person on your team, unless it's outside the leader's skill set, the leader is the one who does it.

That's why I liked the way Pendergast was shown staying on the Prometheus while the ship was evacuated. He's the commander, so he stays until his people are safe. If Pendergast had gone for an evac while one single person was behind him, then he would have been wrong. Not in the legal sense, but in the eyes of those who followed him. [Edit] For Pendergast, the choice to stay until last cost his life.[/Edit]

Being the boss rather sucks in that respect, if self-preservation is a big motivator.

Sheppard's isn't an original concept. He's just written as being a bit more consistent and vocal about it.

If he was real, I'd work for him.

Wow! thank you for that! I love comments from people that have the knowledge and experience.

Great insight!

[Ruined_puzzle]

ZZZZZZZ
That was me falling asleep of boredom.
Ummm at least Sheppard was HOT, we can always count on that.

[Willow'sCat]

As to Sheppard's behavior, I think it was entirely in character for him. He's estalished how far he'd go for his friends at least twice this season. I'd actually expect him to do something like this for McKay now, since Rodney's really the only one left he's NOT done it for so far.

*Taking my slash goggles off*

Well there was GUP, neither Zelenka or Sheppard really knew if they were coming back from that one. But all in all I think that Sheppard still doesn't trust McKay so he will never go out of his way to play suicide guy for McKay, he doesn't see McKay the way he sees Teyla or Ronon.

We've also seen this type of behavior on other sci fi/action shows with their hero characters, so I'm not surprised to see it in Sheppard. O'Neill's done it more than once.

Well Sheppard IS O'Neill. I see differences in acting and RDA is better with the joke delivery, thankfully TPTB don't give JF too many jokes to deliver anymore but really show for show Sheppard equals O'Neill.

I found O'Neill endearing most of the time, and he had real leadership presence he didn't need to bark orders the way Sheppard does O'Neill had respect but I find Sheppard lacks that, I guess it is because he was never meant to be the leader he is not leadership material, he works with what he has but that is it.

I miss season one Sheppard. He had so much potential but it is just wasted now.

[Sweetsong]

I liked the episode.
But I was utterly disappointed that we didn't get to see how the people were actually freed from the device.

I felt the same way, but if I had a choice between a nice set or just seeing a bunch of extras, I'd prefer they cut the extras and build the nice set, heh.