The Game (315)

[PG15]

I doubt the Ancients ever told their villagers to go to war over trade treaties. This was never a "game" to be won. It was simply a game about fostering your people to help them prosper.

I meant in the more general case of "what happens when you have the power to control an entire people".

[FallenAngelII]

Yes, I have... And I have also seen tons of your posts, thank you very much.

Yeah, so just yield to unfair conditions... Just give them whatever they want, ´because you don't want to get in any trouble and don't want to upset anyone..
Again, what kind of country lets other countries use them like that? So just do nothing while the other country gets so technologically advanced that it could destroy your country with bombs? Sure they didn't know that Geldar could built bombs. And they also didn't know if they could. In fact, they had no idea what they were able and what they were willing to do!
Shep just prepared his country for the worst case scenario. And since all the technology was on Geldar's side, what other choice did he have to defend his country?
He didn't attack them, he just reacted...

He could at least have negotiated. From what I got from the episode, John got offended by Rodney's initial offer and then refused all furhter negotiation. Of course, that's Rodney's fault.

You said so yourself. John prepared his country for the worst case scenario. It was that preparation that inevitably lead to war. Had he not done it, they still be two countries in peace with some tension over a botched deal instead of wanting to rip each other's throats out.

John also inflamed it further with the gifts that he knew Rodney was allergic to (be it for fun or not).

Of course they both thought it was a game, but you must admit that had John not sent those gifts or prepared for war, which prompted Rodney to respond, the war would not have come to be.

Yes, it wasn't his fault that the war started per se. But he was one who did the big things. Plus the ill blood he kept showing around Baten when trying to negotiate a truce, always repeating how the other side was cheating and agreeing with Baten on how bad they were.

Sidenote: Not approving of everything a character does does not equal hating them. So I disapprove of his sexual adventures and what he did in this episode. Obviously I must hate him.

[Anjirika]

I loved this ep. I thought it was well written and hilariously funny...the John and Rodney banter was great, the scene between Lorne (Yay lorne's back!) and Zelenka was great too! I loved how we got to see Elizabeth negotiate again, and I loved how royally p/o'ed she was at the guys. ^_^ I personally saw some Sparky undertones with the lack of personal space and the scene at the end when John asks Elizabeth how the negotiations are going- however the one plot hole that I saw was when John's guy ordered his people to attack- John was there- I don't understand why he was so surprised, and why he didn't ask his guy what he was doing....but other than that small plot hole I found the entire episode great. Especially the ending- which was so unexpected....oh yeah, and Rodney's still got a thing for blondes, and his people hate citrus...^_^ gotta love it. ^_^

[Merlin7]

He could at least have negotiated. From what I got from the episode, John got offended by Rodney's initial offer and then refused all furhter negotiation. Of course, that's Rodney's fault.

You said so yourself. John prepared his country for the worst case scenario. It was that preparation that inevitably lead to war. Had he not done it, they still be two countries in peace with some tension over a botched deal instead of wanting to rip each other's throats out.

John also inflamed it further with the gifts that he knew Rodney was allergic to (be it for fun or not).

Of course they both thought it was a game, but you must admit that had John not sent those gifts or prepared for war, which prompted Rodney to respond, the war would not have come to be.

Yes, it wasn't his fault that the war started per se. But he was one who did the big things. Plus the ill blood he kept showing around Baten when trying to negotiate a truce, always repeating how the other side was cheating and agreeing with Baten on how bad they were.

Sidenote: Not approving of everything a character does does not equal hating them. So I disapprove of his sexual adventures and what he did in this episode. Obviously I must hate him.

As John said. Rodney didn't negotiate jack. He gave a list of demands and offered something John didn't need in return. Rodney cheated. It was a GAME. When it became real they were all affected by it.

John didn't do anything wrong. He didn't start any war. But he would have been within his right too, in the GAME, after all the cheating Rodney did. Too bad Rodney couldn't have played the game fairly.

The minute Rodney started cheating, John had the right to do what he did and he did it without cheating. In the GAME. :hakes head::

[Twinchy]

Firstly, they thought it was a harmless game but when the truth came out, they were both to blame in general,but it was unintentional. I totally TOTALLY blame more on Rodney overall. He cheated. Cheated. Cheated. And everything John did was in response to what Rodney did.

Oh...did I mention that Rodney Cheated? Cause. Yeah. He did. Completely.

"It's only cheating if you get cought!" according to Gaheris Rhade (Steve Bacic) on "Andromeda"

Pretty much all of what you are referring to as John's war-mongering happened within the context of the game - when they thought it was just a game. In that context, responding to McKay's request to trade by sending his country lemons was a JOKE, a wind-up, something designed to tease and irritate Rodney - because that's the kind of friendship Sheppard and McKay have.

I second that.
The way Rodney and John behave towards each other all the time, I'm sure this idea instantly came to John's mind as an appropriate answer... He loves to tease Rodney as much as Rodney loves getting on John's nerves! It's their odd way of showing their affection.

I did enjoy much of the banter and also Ronon and Teyla's bemusement at not only the oddness of Earth culture but also the oddness - and combative nature - of Sheppard and McKay's friendship.

That's always something worth watching! I believe that almost every member of the whole expedition finds their teasing and competitive friendship entertaining most of the time.

Adored the ending and getting to see Brainy!Shep once again - and an interesting side note that I recalled from the episode Intruder that makes the chess scene all the more interesting:
SHEPPARD: Well, I hope you're good at chess.
McKAY: I don't get to play much -- it's tough finding challenging opponents.

That's also what first came to my mind, regarding this scene.
I found myself grinning like a frog on dope... *grins still, remembering it*
Guess, they will be playing Chess in their spare time for about the next x-illion years!

[LoveConquers]

Not even Rodney saw what they did with that technology. The only act of aggression Rodney did was to steal John's coal, but that was only way after John increased his army.
And John wasn't even using his coal and was apparentely refusing to negotiate about its mining (even though Rodney was trying to set up unfair conditions, no doubt).

The fact remains, all Rodney did ('til he started stealing coal) was give his people technological advancement. John chose to keep his people on the same level and instead turned their nation into a war-nation.
Then he further inflamed things by repeatedly showing animosity towards Rodney and his side when in Baten's company (not a smart thing to do).

Since you seem to think I dislike John, have you seen my avatar?

In my opinion, you're making a lot of assumptions here. Rodney's act of aggression was to do more than steal from another country, which in and of itself is pretty bad. He ordered the drilling of the tunnel two weeks ago and at the point they learn it's not just a game, they are three miles into John's country. You are saying that if a suspect enemy is on your homesoil, you would not find that an act of agression? You would stay at the negotiating table while they knowingly proceeded and continue to proceed to drill, to invade, to steal, while refusing to negotiate beyond their own list of demands? The stall in negotiatons goes both ways. You would continue to sit at the table anyway while you're in process of being invaded?

And because John's country was not currently using their coal, it's ok to steal it? The second half of your statement is an assumption. We do not know if John refused to negotiate over coal. All we do know is that Rodney's one and only attempt to negotiate was to send over a list of demands. We can maybe assume coal was one of those demands. We do know he offered nothing but beans in return. We do know he refused to give John wood. Why on earth would John give his coal when he cannot get the things he actually needs in return? And when the negotating stalled, Rodney invaded. Yet you expect John to still stay at that table.


And since when is gearing up your army an act of aggression? Rodney focused on technology, John focused on military. They both had their own areas of focus and neither initially intended for them to be aggressive. So again, you're saying that for a country to be well prepared is an act of aggression? You're assuming it was a reactive instead of a defensive move? Again, all I see is another assumption. You'll assume it might not have been against the rules for Rondey to give technology beyond their development, but it was not ok for John to build up militarily with means appropriate for that time?

I am not saying you dislike John. Nothing of the sort. I am just baffled why you'll excuse Rodney with so many assumptions, but won't grant the same absolution to John.

[Quinn Mallory]

Interesting episode. It was an entertaining idea but I felt they made the behaviors of Sheppard and McKay and later Zelenka and Lorne to be too cartoonish. They have seen, first hand, from their exploration about the consequences of meddling with less advanced villagers. I don't quite buy that their competetive spirits would take over that knowledge.

Although the villagers did end up taking up responsibility to start the wars themselves, I would have expected McKay and Sheppard to make more of an effort to stop them sooner...of course, that would effectively limit the amount of fun banter between the two characters.

[Arlessiar]

I wonder if David Hewlett got to keep any of the portraits after the episode?

Yeah, me too! And if yes, then I want to know what Jane says about the paintings.

Rodney has definitely improved with time. A year ago he would have been full of himself, knowing that he was a god to an entire civilisation.

Think so too. I expected him to act very pleased and smugly, thought that he'd tease his teammates with "bow before me" behaviour, but he didn't (I'm glad he didn't). In fact he wanted to clear up the whole mess pretty quickly and didn't want to be worshipped. Maybe he learnt a thing or two from the whole trouble with Lucius.

No more OMG!Wraith! or OMG!Asurans arcs

Which reminds me, why did the Wraith never visit/cull that planet? Have they ever been there, and if not, why not? Has that been mentioned?

Bye, A.

[Agent_Dark]

While Rodney would surely want his people to "beat" Sheppard's when it comes to prosperity, he would never ever have attacked Sheppard's people.

He didn't give his people the instructions on how to build weapons. They did that on their own (he didn't know they were actual people). And he only strengthened his military (and even then it was tiny compared to Hallona's) after John had doubled his forces.

While Rodney is competitive and no doubt wanted to win over John, it wasn't by force. John, however, being the warhawk that he is, immediately assumed an attack was coming and planned for it, making his people think it was coming.

(On a side note, Nolah did foster ill-will towards Hallona and didn't hesitate to attack back herself, but Rodney never fed her instructions to go to war. And he did everything he could to stop the war instead of rambling about how bad of a person the other Oracle was.)

All paths lead to war in an RTS. Even the ones that supposedly offer the other routes.
And I dont even know why there needs to be blame laid? They were playing a game. Like I said, you'll end up attacking the other player at some point during an RTS anyway. No one is to blame for causing the war, because war is what you do in games.

[tbl]

The beginning was funny. The obvious subtext of that episode was to show how lack of understanding of ancient technology can be devasting. The chest game at the end was a nice touch.

[Luz]

Which reminds me, why did the Wraith never visit/cull that planet? Have they ever been there, and if not, why not? Has that been mentioned?

Bye, A.

Teyla asked if they had ever had troubles with the wraith, and Nola told them that they'd attacked periodically, culled them, destroyed the village and the survivors rebuilt.

[LoveConquers]

Which reminds me, why did the Wraith never visit/cull that planet? Have they ever been there, and if not, why not? Has that been mentioned?

Bye, A.

Someone, I believe it was Teyla, did ask them about the wraith, and their reponse was that they had been culled from time to time, but rebuilt after each time.

[LoveConquers]

Teyla asked if they had ever had troubles with the wraith, and Nola told them that they'd attacked periodically, culled them, destroyed the village and the survivors rebuilt.

Oh oops, sorry! Didn't see you had already answered this!

[ShoDar]

Interesting episode. It was an entertaining idea but I felt they made the behaviors of Sheppard and McKay and later Zelenka and Lorne to be too cartoonish. They have seen, first hand, from their exploration about the consequences of meddling with less advanced villagers. I don't quite buy that their competetive spirits would take over that knowledge.

Although the villagers did end up taking up responsibility to start the wars themselves, I would have expected McKay and Sheppard to make more of an effort to stop them sooner...of course, that would effectively limit the amount of fun banter between the two characters.

I kind of agree with the comment about them being cartoonish, but then I also have witnessed pacifists play video games, so I think it was fairly accurate. Human behaviour in general leads us all to think that we know better than anybody else and this kind of system really played into that. Even when Radek and Lorne knew it wasn't a game anymore, they were still convinced that if only the other guy would do things their way, everything would be fine.

[Vash]

I find it funny how the anicents loved to meddle with peoples lives when they are alive but have a problem when ascended.