The Game (315)

[Ltcolshepjumper]

Rodney was just as guilty as Sheppard. During the time Rodney wasn't playing, Nola would have used the bombs. they were already built. She would have used them.

[Willow'sCat]

As John said. Rodney didn't negotiate jack. He gave a list of demands and offered something John didn't need in return. Rodney cheated. It was a GAME. When it became real they were all affected by it.

John didn't do anything wrong. He didn't start any war. But he would have been within his right too, in the GAME, after all the cheating Rodney did. Too bad Rodney couldn't have played the game fairly.

The minute Rodney started cheating, John had the right to do what he did and he did it without cheating. In the GAME. :hakes head::

LOL! No he was as much to blame for what happened as Rodney and we only have John's word *sorry not counting for much with me* that Rodney was cheating and quite frankly how do you even cheat in a "Game" that can't have any rules as it wasn't actually a "Game" in the first place? I understand about fair play but come on, they had no rules... NO RULES! It was a free for all, and John probably got pissy when Rodney's strategy started to work so he says he cheated... boys

Anyway, I still say they were both to blame, but John being military took the root that leads to war (through protection/defending) and Rodney took the root of advancement through science that funnily enough also tends to lead to war... go figure humans starting wars... never happens.

[FallenAngelII]

Rodney was just as guilty as Sheppard. During the time Rodney wasn't playing, Nola would have used the bombs. they were already built. She would have used them.

Yes, but Rodney didn't tell them how to make bombs. John told his army to double and acted reaaaally immature around Baten.

After consideration, I'll conceede to that they were probably equally responsible. I still reaaaaally dislike John's behavior, though. He kept calling Rodney a cheater (in front of Baten) when trying to stop a war.

[Arlessiar]

This was commented on a few pages ago.

I think I read about 70% of the posts here, but I simply don't have the time to read every single post every day.

I don't agree that John was childish alone. Rodney AND John were equally childish at times

I never said that John was childish alone. Rodney was too, both of them were rather 5 year old boys than grown-up men for a while! What I meant wasn't the fact that they behaved silly when they were still playing that game. From the moment they knew that this is not a game Rodney was rather and unusually subdued. John on the other hand didn't seem to be that concerned to me as I actually expected him to be. He even repeated the "Rodney cheated" phrase even when there were really much more important things to think about and concentrate on than that. It just wasn't very appropriate or helpful.
And that's of course just my opinion. I simply don't think that John Sheppard (or anyone else!) is always doing or saying the right thing.

They were playing a game where the object was to grow and develop a society - instead of helping that society to grow and develop at a natural pace, Rodney gave them specific scientific information that allowed them to develop at a much faster rate than they ever would have done naturally

Agreed, it might have been a problem because they weren't ready for that kind if technology at that time, but I still wouldn't call it cheating as long as there are no rules that forbid that, and that we simply don't know as it wasn't stated on the show. I have no reason to believe John more than I believe Rodney, they could both be lying/exaggerating/speaking the truth, so I just have to say that I simply don't know if it was cheating or not because I don't know the exact rules of the game.


You know, the more I think about this ep, the more I figure out that maybe I'm just tired that it's always the same sh*t on the show.

Rant ahead, so I put it in tags for size:

Spoiler:

All in all they're all the good guys, but when it comes down to it Rodney is the guy with the bad character traits who screws up and gets blamed for that, the others are the heroes or sweeties who are easily forgiven (Sheppard, Beckett) or are so nice that they never do anything wrong (Teyla). It's getting old. Why does Rodney always have to be the one who causes trouble and gets whacked over the head for that? And while we're at it, why is he the one who automatically cheats (if it was cheating) in a game? Is Sheppard (or anyone else) so much better than him, is his moralilty so much higher that he'd never ever do something like that? I doubt it.

Don't get me wrong, Rodney is certainly not an easy or soft character, and sometimes his arrogance or snarkiness causes problems. That's ok for me, it's part of the character I like so much and I don't want to lose that. But whenever a scene comes up where characters are judged, it's always Rodney who's the one with the questionable motives, the unfair or unsocial behaviour or the one who makes the big mistakes that stay in the minds of his colleagues. It's getting a bit tiring that he's most of the time the only one who gets blamed openly. Are all the other people better persons just because they're nicer to their colleagues and to kids and retirees and animals, admit all their mistakes openly or blame themselves for them heroically?

We certainly get to see alot of McKay on the show, so I guess I should be happy about that (and I am). But generally it bothers me that it's always Rodney whose bad sides are on display.

Bye, A.

[Ltcolshepjumper]

Yes, but Rodney didn't tell them how to make bombs. John told his army to double and acted reaaaally immature around Baten.

After consideration, I'll conceede to that they were probably equally responsible. I still reaaaaally dislike John's behavior, though. He kept calling Rodney a cheater (in front of Baten) when trying to stop a war.

Now doubling your army doesn't really amount to aggression. Yes he was immature but not aggressive. Mckay giving his people more technology could be seen equally as aggressive. And why give them the ingredients to making a bomb in the first place. And I think there's a lot more Mckay did tell them, especially since they were able and had th idea of making bombs and blimps.

[FallenAngelII]

Now doubling your army doesn't really amount to aggression. Yes he was immature but not aggressive. Mckay giving his people more technology could be seen equally as aggressive. And why give them the ingredients to making a bomb in the first place. And I think there's a lot more Mckay did tell them, especially since they were able and had th idea of making bombs and blimps.

Rodney never gave them the ingredients for the bomb. Those ingredients were probably found around the planet. Rodney didn't exactly pull ingredients out of thin air.

Again, I can construct a bomb out of kitchen items.

Rodney gave them a lot of different technologies. They figured out how to combine these into a bomb.

[Ltcolshepjumper]

So what you're saying is that Mckay told them nothing of how to even remotely make an explosive. Look at how long it took us to make bombs. Even with Mckay's guidance, they still couldn't have automatically known what to do with the ingredients. He had to have revealed to them something like that. And like I said, Mckay couldn't have criticized sheppard for doubling his army. There was nothing else he could do to possibly defend his country. And Sheppard obviously hadn't made any aggressive attacks, or the war would have started earlier.

[SyKeS]

I just want to say how annoyed and ubelievably dumb I find these kind of eppisodes where a bunch of Americans go around and tell how bad it is to make war. They really talk like they know better, while in fact the very army of the united states for which they work have made more of a mess of this planet the last few decades in 'service' of their country then I though humanly possible. Its too bad hollywood doesnt recongnise that a big chunck of their viewers lives outside of the US and well...almost everybody outside the US doesnt see them as a very loving country indeed. Why dont these directors do something with this information?? Let sheppard say something like...we ****ed up bigtime in Iraq (twice lol) and in a country called vietnam where we tried to force our ways and ended up killing thousends upon thousend of innocent people and its horrible!! Learn from us by ending this ancient 'game' in piece. That would have made it a lot more pleasant to watch in my opinion.

Im interested to hear if any American viewers even noticed this.

Greets

SyKeS

[Arlessiar]

There was no way for Sheppard to "win" the game. Mckay's country made bombs and blimps! hundreds of years ahead of any medieval race. It was complete cheating, especially since they were competing.

McKay certainly didn't encourage them to make bombs or gave them the explicit ingredients they needed. He was very surprised when they told him about the weapons. His people developed and figured it out on their own with the stuff they had, and even though they figured it out earlier than they would have naturally because McKay gave them more advanced technology, it wasn't directly Rodney's fault that they suddenly had bombs and blimps! He didn't give them theorder to build it. Yes, he was responsible for giving them more advanced technology, but they would have figured out how to make bombs sooner or later, now they figured it out sooner. Without his help. If it was cheating at all that they got or discovered the advanced technology in the first place - who knows as long as we don't know the rules of that game, if it has any at all.

Now doubling your army doesn't really amount to aggression. Yes he was immature but not aggressive. Mckay giving his people more technology could be seen equally as aggressive. And why give them the ingredients to making a bomb in the first place.

Yeah, of course, doubling you're army doesn't amount to agression, but giving your people bikes and lenses does...

Bye, A.

[Ltcolshepjumper]

Its not an either-or situation. Nowhere did I say that Shepparrds's innocent, Mckay's guilty. It wasn't what they told them to do. Its what they told them about each other that caused the hostility. sheppard could have quadrupled his army and Mckay could have taught his people how to built fighter jets, but the real blame is with the lies Mckay and Sheppard told their respective countries. They stirred up the hostility before either had become potential threats.

[Luz]

Its not an either-or situation. Nowhere did I say that Shepparrds's innocent, Mckay's guilty. It wasn't what they told them to do. Its what they told them about each other that caused the hostility. sheppard could have quadrupled his army and Mckay could have taught his people how to built fighter jets, but the real blame is with the lies Mckay and Sheppard told their respective countries. They stirred up the hostility before either had become potential threats.

But they thought it was a game, I really can't examine their actions in a harsh light because to them it was a game, and we've seen that when real people are involved both of them are more mindful. they wouldn't play with real people's lives like they did with the people when they thought they weren't real. See how when they realized that it wasn't a game they started to work towards fixing things between both villages.
Now, Sheppard's remarks that McKay cheated, I'm taking that as the boys usual banter.
And whatever McKay did to help his people advance technologically, or what Sheppard did with his army, it was in the context of a game to both of them and they did what they thought they needed to do to win, they didn't think real people would get hurt, it didn't cross their minds. And a war on a game doesn't seem that terrible, let's face it, kids play with their video games, they blow up cities, kill people, monsters, blow spaceships, and there are no consequences. So these boys (Sheppard and McKay) behaved like two kids would behave on a game, trying to outsmart the opponent.

[Ltcolshepjumper]

I agree. You can't really blame them for doing anything, aside from the fact that it happened as a result of their doing, because it was done unknowingly( causing two real people to go to war, I mean).

[Linzi]

I think I read about 70% of the posts here, but I simply don't have the time to read every single post every day.
I never said that John was childish alone. Rodney was too, both of them were rather 5 year old boys than grown-up men for a while! What I meant wasn't the fact that they behaved silly when they were still playing that game. From the moment they knew that this is not a game Rodney was rather and unusually subdued. John on the other hand didn't seem to be that concerned to me as I actually expected him to be. He even repeated the "Rodney cheated" phrase even when there were really much more important things to think about and concentrate on than that. It just wasn't very appropriate or helpful.
And that's of course just my opinion. I simply don't think that John Sheppard (or anyone else!) is always doing or saying the right thing.

Agreed, it might have been a problem because they weren't ready for that kind if technology at that time, but I still wouldn't call it cheating as long as there are no rules that forbid that, and that we simply don't know as it wasn't stated on the show. I have no reason to believe John more than I believe Rodney, they could both be lying/exaggerating/speaking the truth, so I just have to say that I simply don't know if it was cheating or not because I don't know the exact rules of the game.


You know, the more I think about this ep, the more I figure out that maybe I'm just tired that it's always the same sh*t on the show.

Rant ahead, so I put it in tags for size:

Spoiler:

All in all they're all the good guys, but when it comes down to it Rodney is the guy with the bad character traits who screws up and gets blamed for that, the others are the heroes or sweeties who are easily forgiven (Sheppard, Beckett) or are so nice that they never do anything wrong (Teyla). It's getting old. Why does Rodney always have to be the one who causes trouble and gets whacked over the head for that? And while we're at it, why is he the one who automatically cheats (if it was cheating) in a game? Is Sheppard (or anyone else) so much better than him, is his moralilty so much higher that he'd never ever do something like that? I doubt it.

Don't get me wrong, Rodney is certainly not an easy or soft character, and sometimes his arrogance or snarkiness causes problems. That's ok for me, it's part of the character I like so much and I don't want to lose that. But whenever a scene comes up where characters are judged, it's always Rodney who's the one with the questionable motives, the unfair or unsocial behaviour or the one who makes the big mistakes that stay in the minds of his colleagues. It's getting a bit tiring that he's most of the time the only one who gets blamed openly. Are all the other people better persons just because they're nicer to their colleagues and to kids and retirees and animals, admit all their mistakes openly or blame themselves for them heroically?

We certainly get to see alot of McKay on the show, so I guess I should be happy about that (and I am). But generally it bothers me that it's always Rodney whose bad sides are on display.

Bye, A.

Answering your thoughts on Rodney.

Spoiler:

I think all of the characters have had bad moments throughout the series, and I certainly don't think Sheppard isn't shown making mistakes, even if they are for what he believes are the right reasons. After all, he woke up the wraith, for example. I also think people can be very hard on Sheppard, more so than towards McKay generally.
I can see where you are coming from. Rodney is often seen as an object of ridicule and is used for comedic purposes. He can be an ass, egotistic, unsympathetic and very insensitive at times. He also saves everyone on a regular basis with his brain, has a good heart and is incredibly amusing. I rather like Rodney's character flaws, just as I like John's. Ok, in real life a character such as Rodney would drive me insane, but on the screen he is very entertaining when used properly, and not over used. I do think TPTB over do the comic stuff sometimes though, and I'd like to see it shared around.
I think the key to this is that Rodney is a very arrogant man, and unfortunately pride comes before a fall. He is very flawed and his behaviour towards his fellow scientists and especially Zelenka, by his own admission, has been appalling. That sort of thing does stick in people's minds. So yes, when the genius makes a mistake, nobody will let him forget it, because he's generally so conceited about his own abilities and puts down others, undervaluing their contributions. He doesn't really mean anything by it, that's true, but many people would find it hard to live with that sort of behaviour. I certainly would in real life.
In contrast, Sheppard gets on well on a superficial level with everyone, and treats everyone pretty fairly. He's amiable and mild-mannered. He's also pretty heroic in terms of putting himself in danger to save others physically and comes up with intelligent plans to save the day too. I guess people find it easier to ignore the flaws of people like that?
Also, don't forget Sheppard is the hero. We all know that TPTB don't want their hero to be seen as flawed in any way. I personally don't agree with that, and neither does Joe Flanigan, but the writers etc. write how they see fit, and unfortunately I can't see that changing.
As far as the two boys behaved in the Game, I do think when it was thought to be a game neither did anything wrong as such. But when it was revealed it was all a social experiment, and incidentally I believe the Ancients would have specified that technological advances weren't allowed to happen beyond normal evolution, both McKay and Sheppard should have grown up a little and not bickered. But, I have to say, I really enjoy their bickering and banter, so I was pretty entertained by it all

[LoveConquers]

Yes, but Rodney didn't tell them how to make bombs. John told his army to double and acted reaaaally immature around Baten.

After consideration, I'll conceede to that they were probably equally responsible. I still reaaaaally dislike John's behavior, though. He kept calling Rodney a cheater (in front of Baten) when trying to stop a war.

Rodney never gave them the ingredients for the bomb. Those ingredients were probably found around the planet. Rodney didn't exactly pull ingredients out of thin air.

Again, I can construct a bomb out of kitchen items. Rodney gave them a lot of different technologies. They figured out how to combine these into a bomb

I disagree. Looks like a list of ingredients to me.

McKAY: Uh, what are you doing?
NOLA: Preparing our counter-attack.
McKAY: What counter-attack?
GARTH: From information you gave us about high-temperature and energetic materials technology, I have constructed a tactical explosive device

SHEPPARD: You taught them how to build a bomb?!
McKAY: No! Well, not specifically. Look, OK, maybe I provided them with a list of ingredients but ...
SHEPPARD (furiously): I don’t believe this!

And since when does "google" and "common kitchen items" exist in the middle ages?

I do agree with you though that John's behavior later after finding out it wasn't a game was annoying and out of character, IMO. In fact, I would even venture to wonder if not Joe felt the same way. He had the same stance and expresion that he did in other episodes that we later learn he personally did not like. Just a thought.

Regardless, I definitely agree with you as well that they were both together responsible for the overall outcome!

[FallenAngelII]

I disagree. Looks like a list to me.

McKAY: Uh, what are you doing?
NOLA: Preparing our counter-attack.
McKAY: What counter-attack?
GARTH: From information you gave us about high-temperature and energetic materials technology, I have constructed a tactical explosive device

SHEPPARD: You taught them how to build a bomb?!
McKAY: No! Well, not specifically. Look, OK, maybe I provided them with a list of ingredients but ...
SHEPPARD (furiously): I don’t believe this!

And since when does "google" and "common kitchen items" exist in the middle ages?

I do agree with you though that John's behavior later after finding out it wasn't a game was annoying and out of character, IMO. In fact, I would even venture to wonder if not Joe felt the same way. He had the same stance and expresion that he did in other episodes that we later learn he personally did not like. Just a thought.

Regardless, I definitely agree with you as well that they were both together responsible for the overall outcome!

Rodney gave his little sims a list of ingredients? I think he was gonna say "that could be used to build a bomb..." with some of those "ingredients" being scientific studies he taught them.

Nola told him he'd taught them two different things, both of which they combined into a bomb.

And Rodney was as surprised as John that they had bombs. He did not plan this.