The Game (315)

[FallenAngelII]

It is far easier to ignore the logical parts of arguments that contradict one's point of view than to address them in a straightforward manner. Ignorance is bliss, eh?

and no, I won't go away...so a petty red doesn't bother me...

She thinks it's logical to double your army when your neighbour gets scientific advancements. I don't.

What are we supposed to discuss beyond that?

[prion]

Forget all the squabbling about who is at fault.

I want to know why there's all this blue jello in Atlantis. Do they have something against red jello? It's a conspiracy, I tell ya!!!

[Nolamom]

It's the point about Rodney artificially advancing Nola's people technologically which was "cheating". You have maintained that it wasn't. Sorry, in my opinion and those of the majority of other posters on this thread, it was. John's group, not having that technologial 'edge' had no choice but to counter Rodney's manipulations with military strength - such as it was.

I have come to believe that you argue for the sake of arguing. A way of being provocative? Sorry, I won't play your game. Have fun with others.

I enjoyed this episode, and no, not just because of Nola - hehehe. It was a chance to see some character interaction. Go Carl Binder!

[Arlessiar]

Same thing happens to me, I understand english pretty well, but Sheppard mumbles, McKay babbles a lot, and let's not get started with Zlenka, half the time Ionly understand what he says until after I've gotten hold of the subs. The only two people I understand perfectly are Elizabeth, Teyla, and Ronon because mostly he speaks very little or just grumbles.

I always understand Teyla and Weir, and I understand Rodney and Carson most of the time. It's harder for me to understand Zelenka, Ronon and especially John.

Good thing that there are transcripts.

No, he wasn't. Rodney used technology (technology that was far to advanced for the level of development of his "team") to try to put his country in a position of superiority, of power, over John's. John responded by doing what he could, within the rules of the game, to protect his people and bring them back to an equal footing

Unlike Rodney, Sheppard was playing by the rules

Well, we don't know the rules of the game. Hence we don't know if Rodney really cheated or not, and if John stayed within the rules of the game or not. We only speculate and interpret what we heard and saw.
And honestly, John claimed so often that Rodney cheated that it sounded a bit like a pathetic excuse after a while. He still blamed him in pressing real life situations where there were really more important decisions to make! I thought that this behaviour was rather childish and didn't fit (I blame TPTB for that), so I couldn't really take John's claims seriously anymore.

But who knows, as I said we don't know the rules of the game, the way it's played, it's ultimate goal, the levels or whatever else. We don't know if anyone acted unfair actually. I agree that it very likely was an act of war when Rodney's people stole the coal from John's territory. But everything before that, be it the military or the scientific approach to playing this game, can't be judged as long as we don't know the rules.

ETA: Just saw your post, luvmac, where you basically said the same I just said. So I can add now that I agree with your post!

Bye, A.

[Arlessiar]

Sorry, in my opinion and those of the majority of other posters on this thread, it was.

And if the majority thinks that way then it's right?

I don't think that way, by the way. I don't agree with everything FallenAngel said, but with many things I do agree.

John's group, not having that technologial 'edge' had no choice but to counter Rodney's manipulations with military strength - such as it was.

He had no choice??? You always have a choice. Why did he think it's necessary to increase the army just because the neighbours have telescopes and bikes now? That was certainly no threat. He might have thought it was cheating, yes, (we don't know the rules of the game), but it wasn't the only option. It simply was John's way of thinking. I don't blame him for that, no! Because that's just the way he ticks. Rodney uses the scientific method, John the military method, that's fine with me. But it wasn't the only option.

I have come to believe that you argue for the sake of arguing. A way of being provocative? Sorry, I won't play your game. Have fun with others.

Fallen Angel just defends his/her viewpoint, what's wrong with that? It's just hard to maintain your POV when so many people contradict, but that doesn't mean you have to change it.

Bye, A.

[Nolamom]

Fallen Angel just defends his/her viewpoint, what's wrong with that? It's just hard to maintain your POV when so many people contradict, but that doesn't mean you have to change it.

Not trying to change it. I wouldn't bother. I'm just not going to argue with him yet again. Every thread that I've seen him in has been to argue. That's not my idea of having fun on Gateworld. So, I'm not playing his game. Sorry if that disturbs anyone else, but I don't put folks on ignore, I just don't play with them.
Nola

[LoveConquers]

He had no choice??? You always have a choice. Why did he think it's necessary to increase the army just because the neighbours have telescopes and bikes now? That was certainly no threat. He might have thought it was cheating, yes, (we don't know the rules of the game), but it wasn't the only option. It simply was John's way of thinking. I don't blame him for that, no! Because that's just the way he ticks. Rodney uses the scientific method, John the military method, that's fine with me. But it wasn't the only option.

This was commented on a few pages ago. Again, the assumption here is that Rodney's technology was only for "happy and harmless" things when in fact, it did not turn out to be so harmless at all. Yes, there was a good side to that technology, but it also led to the moral compromise of that same country. Rodney had good intentions, but he was also just wanted to win a game. He also gave them the ingredients for bombs and air ships. He did not know they had made a bomb, but can you honestly believe he never intended to eventually tell them to do so since he had already provided the ingredients and materials? IMO, his shock was not that they built it, but that they built it without telling him and before he had ordered it. He also ordered an advancement and IMO, what was an invasion, into another country to steal resources that were already denied to him. These are not such happy things and our point is simply that we do not know how much John did or did not know about what all Rodney was doing. I do not think it is much of a stretch to believe that John's military training would have him seeing the dangerous possibilities of technology being bestowed upon a civilization not yet ready for it.
So yes, of course he had a choice. To sit and do nothing and risk possible take-over or to defensively build up an army. Not because of bikes and hot air balloons, but because of the dangerous possibilities that technology can also lead to. Again, he was preparing for the worst case scenario. And in this case, it turned out to be rightly so because that same technology did in fact lead to conflict.
So he had a choice, but was backed into choosing defensive preparations. In this context, you could argue, he had no choice for to do nothing would have resulted in doom and loss within the game.
Again, this was also all in context of a game and both were trying to win by having the better country as stated in the jumper scene.

[Linzi]

I always understand Teyla and Weir, and I understand Rodney and Carson most of the time. It's harder for me to understand Zelenka, Ronon and especially John.

Good thing that there are transcripts.

Well, we don't know the rules of the game. Hence we don't know if Rodney really cheated or not, and if John stayed within the rules of the game or not. We only speculate and interpret what we heard and saw.
And honestly, John claimed so often that Rodney cheated that it sounded a bit like a pathetic excuse after a while. He still blamed him in pressing real life situations where there were really more important decisions to make! I thought that this behaviour was rather childish and didn't fit (I blame TPTB for that), so I couldn't really take John's claims seriously anymore.

But who knows, as I said we don't know the rules of the game, the way it's played, it's ultimate goal, the levels or whatever else. We don't know if anyone acted unfair actually. I agree that it very likely was an act of war when Rodney's people stole the coal from John's territory. But everything before that, be it the military or the scientific approach to playing this game, can't be judged as long as we don't know the rules.

ETA: Just saw your post, luvmac, where you basically said the same I just said. So I can add now that I agree with your post!

Bye, A.

I don't agree that John was childish alone. Rodney AND John were equally childish at times. Squabbling and not settling their differences when their countries were heading to war. Weir gave them BOTH a good kick up the backside, and her face was classic when she found out Rodney had ORDERED his people to drill into Hallona.
I actually couldn't take Rodney seriously either, especially that he had his face on flags everywhere, had made lemons toxic to the Geldans etc.. but then again it was all a GAME. Rodney said it wasn't cheating, but I don't believe him. He's incredibly competitve and values brains and technology above everything else, of course he'd give those things to his people.
One thing that did irk me about this episode though. How on Earth could Hallona (ooops! I meant Geldar!!) become so technologically advanced so quickly? In two years? Even with McKay's information. They were supposed to be a mediaeval society and they can just follow his instructions and develop in two years? I think not.

[Arlessiar]

Not trying to change it. I wouldn't bother. I'm just not going to argue with him yet again. Every thread that I've seen him in has been to argue. That's not my idea of having fun on Gateworld. So, I'm not playing his game. Sorry if that disturbs anyone else, but I don't put folks on ignore, I just don't play with them

I understand that, it's of course your right if you don't want to play that game. I was just wondering why you are in a discussion thread when your definition of fun is different. No offense, was just wondering, because I think it's great if people have the time for such discussions and enjoy them, as this is an important part of the fandom I think (IMHO what we had just here was still a discussion, not an argument). Personally and unfortunately I often don't have enough time for lenghty discussions, so I mostly just visit my 'home threads' to relax a bit.

Bye, A.

[Alipeeps]

Seriously, how do we know that Rodney wasn't acting within the rules of the game? The rules were never specifically stated. The only thing that anyone has to go on that Rodney was "cheating" was the fact that John kept saying it. It doesn't mean that it was actually true. In fact somewhere towards the end Rodney says somewhere along the lines of they couldn't give them huge leaps in technology. Now he might have been walking a fine line with those rules but there's nothing to say (other than John) that Rodney actually crossed that line.

Well, we don't know the rules of the game. Hence we don't know if Rodney really cheated or not, and if John stayed within the rules of the game or not. We only speculate and interpret what we heard and saw.

My understanding of the accusation that Rodney cheated is not that there were specific "rules" to the game that he went against, more that it is unfair and, basically, "cheating" to artificially advance a society the way he did. They were playing a game where the object was to grow and develop a society - instead of helping that society to grow and develop at a natural pace, Rodney gave them specific scientific information that allowed them to develop at a much faster rate than they ever would have done naturally - and, really, before they were ready or able to cope with the consequences of such knowledge. By most definitions, that is cheating.

To use a computer game analogy, it was as two people were playing a WW2-based battle game and Rodney suddenly gave his soldiers technology way more advanced than their era - e.g. Harrier jump jets. Totally unfair and definitely "cheating".

This was commented on a few pages ago. Again, the assumption here is that Rodney's technology was only for "happy and harmless" things when in fact, it did not turn out to be so harmless at all. Yes, there was a good side to that technology, but it also led to the moral compromise of that same country. Rodney had good intentions, but he was also just wanted to win a game. He also gave them the ingredients for bombs and air ships. He did not know they had made a bomb, but can you honestly believe he never intended to eventually tell them to do so since he had already provided the ingredients and materials? IMO, his shock was not that they built it, but that they built it without telling him and before he had ordered it. He also ordered an advancement and IMO, what was an invasion, into another country to steal resources that were already denied to him. These are not such happy things and our point is simply that we do not know how much John did or did not know about what all Rodney was doing. I do not think it is much of a stretch to believe that John's military training would have him seeing the dangerous possibilities of technology being bestowed upon a civilization not yet ready for it.
So yes, of course he had a choice. To sit and do nothing and risk possible take-over or to defensively build up an army. Not because of bikes and hot air balloons, but because of the dangerous possibilities that technology can also lead to. Again, he was preparing for the worst case scenario. And in this case, it turned out to be rightly so because that same technology did in fact lead to conflict.
So he had a choice, but was backed into choosing defensive preparations. In this context, you could argue, he had no choice for to do nothing would have resulted in doom and loss within the game.
Again, this was also all in context of a game and both were trying to win by having the better country as stated in the jumper scene.

Precisely. My point, which FAII has chosen not to address, is that, given the confines of the way the game should be played (developing a society at a natural pace) and the level of development his people were at, building up a military force for defence purposes was an entirely natural response to another country making rapid technological advances and behaving in a threatening manner (demanding resources rather than negotiating etc)

[Ltcolshepjumper]

Well it wasn't fair, from Sheppard's pov, since Mckay knew things that sheppard didn't and Mckay could accuse shepaprd of doubling his army because what else could he do? Mckay's people made blimps, which are clearly not a medieval age invention. And bombs? Mckay clearly had the advantage. I wonder though, what Baden meant when he said they weren't as primitive as Nola believed.

[luvmac]

My understanding of the accusation that Rodney cheated is not that there were specific "rules" to the game that he went against, more that it is unfair and, basically, "cheating" to artificially advance a society the way he did.

But if he didn't go against any specific rules then even if he did given them advanced technology he couldn't have cheated.

given the confines of the way the game should be played (developing a society at a natural pace)

While I do think that there were specific rules that they had to follow the show didn't give us enough information to know whether or not Rodney actually crossed the line and cheated. From what Rodney says at one point you could give them some technologica information it's just not clear how much or how fast.

What makes me wonder if Rodney really cheated is the fact that John tends to goad Rodney by saying things that aren't necessarily true just to get a rise out of him.
Case in point was the fact that in the puddle jumper he stated that Rodney "stalked" the college girlfriend that Rodney had named his country after. He stated it like it was a fact even though there was no proof of this.

[Nolamom]

My understanding of the accusation that Rodney cheated is not that there were specific "rules" to the game that he went against, more that it is unfair and, basically, "cheating" to artificially advance a society the way he did. They were playing a game where the object was to grow and develop a society - instead of helping that society to grow and develop at a natural pace, Rodney gave them specific scientific information that allowed them to develop at a much faster rate than they ever would have done naturally - and, really, before they were ready or able to cope with the consequences of such knowledge. By most definitions, that is cheating.

The 'game' was a sociological experiment set up by the Ancients. Of course, the Ancients weren't likely to advance the societies at an accelerated pace, hence their level of developement when discovered by John and Rodney. Rodney certainly did advance his people more than they should have been. Rodney has displayed, on more than one occasion, a strong predeliction for technology (no surprise) and a selfish streak. Remember the coffee - when Atlantis was about to run out, Rodney drank as much as possible to get "his" - plus a bit more. Same thing applies here. Rodney cheated to "win" the game. He wanted his people to be better than John's so he artificially advanced them and then they INVADED and STOLE resources.

To use a computer game analogy, it was as two people were playing a WW2-based battle game and Rodney suddenly gave his soldiers technology way more advanced than their era - e.g. Harrier jump jets. Totally unfair and definitely "cheating".

yeppers

[Ltcolshepjumper]

agreed. There was no way for Sheppard to "win" the game. Mckay's country made bombs and blimps! hundreds of years ahead of any medieval race. It was complete cheating, especially since they were competing.

[FallenAngelII]

This was commented on a few pages ago. Again, the assumption here is that Rodney's technology was only for "happy and harmless" things when in fact, it did not turn out to be so harmless at all. Yes, there was a good side to that technology, but it also led to the moral compromise of that same country. Rodney had good intentions, but he was also just wanted to win a game. He also gave them the ingredients for bombs and air ships. He did not know they had made a bomb, but can you honestly believe he never intended to eventually tell them to do so since he had already provided the ingredients and materials? IMO, his shock was not that they built it, but that they built it without telling him and before he had ordered it. He also ordered an advancement and IMO, what was an invasion, into another country to steal resources that were already denied to him. These are not such happy things and our point is simply that we do not know how much John did or did not know about what all Rodney was doing. I do not think it is much of a stretch to believe that John's military training would have him seeing the dangerous possibilities of technology being bestowed upon a civilization not yet ready for it.
So yes, of course he had a choice. To sit and do nothing and risk possible take-over or to defensively build up an army. Not because of bikes and hot air balloons, but because of the dangerous possibilities that technology can also lead to. Again, he was preparing for the worst case scenario. And in this case, it turned out to be rightly so because that same technology did in fact lead to conflict.
So he had a choice, but was backed into choosing defensive preparations. In this context, you could argue, he had no choice for to do nothing would have resulted in doom and loss within the game.
Again, this was also all in context of a game and both were trying to win by having the better country as stated in the jumper scene.

Do you know how easy it is to make a bomb? I, a language major, can Google up how to build one using only household items. Giving people a few technological advancement will make them eventually discover how to make a bomb.

Do you really think Rodney, of all people, would wage war just for the heck of it?