The Game (315)

[caty]

Do you really think they sent their army to do the tunnel digging and coal mining instead of scientists, engineers and coal miners?!

What kind of idiots sents soldiers to do that kind of jobs?!


John sent the citrus (and from the sound of it other things), which insulted Rodney, which the villagers took as a great insult as well. It was juvenile.

Rodney gave John a bad trade offer and he increased his army (you make it sound like the increase was a result of the trade offer). Does that sound like a logical step to you? John increased his army because Rodney gave his people technology. Instead of giving his own people technology, he just inflated his army, as if that'd be the answer.

I never said Rodney wasn't guilty. On the contrary, I said he had a part in it as well and that he did quite a few things that played a part of it.

However, all of Rodney's actions were indirect causes. All of John's were direct. Especially after they discovered it wasn't a game, what with the constant name-calling and show of animosity around Baten, including agreeing with Baten on certain things like how attacking would've been a good thing to do.

You tell people all the time to read (I know how much you love emphasizing) your posts, so why don't you go back and read mine? My 'would have'-scenario was intended to show how unvalid it is, because you were using one to back up your argumentation.. I don't make it sound like John increasing his army was a result of the unfair trade offer.

You said John should have kept negotiating and I explained why it would have made no sense to keep negotiating.

Again, if you had read my previous post, you'd know that the way I see it, the increase of John's army was a response to the technological advancement of Rodneys people.. Because the Hallonans had no way of knowing what Nola was able and willing to do with her technology, they started to built up an army to defend themselves in case she was planning to send some kind of aggressive, highly technological weapon to destroy them all.. Reaction...

Many of your posts are full of embellishments of what you perceive to have gone on behind the scenes, if you stick to the facts as they were presented in the episode this much is clear:
Hallona and Geldar were neighbouring countries who got along just fine before John and Rodney started playing their game.
John built up his army is response to Rodney cheating and giving advanced technology to his country. Both men bestowed their wisdom and ethos' on their own countries. McKay's country revered him as a god, having his face on flags, foisting his dislike of citrus on his people, and teaching them that technology was vital to development etc...I'd hardly say some of those things are mature, by the way. John's people didn't even know who he was. The problems really began when the two countries were at an impasse on trade negotiations. When Geldar were dsicovered to be invading Hallona's land and trying to steal their resources the situation became desperate. That incursion is an act of war, but actually Sheppard tried really hard to dissuade his country from attacking, he told them to trade the coal for things they needed. Not once did Rodney tell Geldar to stop drilling.
However, as I've said many times, both Sheppard and McKay were playing a game! They were both responsible for shaping their countries into what they became, but they were trying to win a game, pure and simple. Both of them could have put aside their differences immediately and worked to help restore peace, but they were bickering so much this didn't happen.
The key for me though, is that it was Sheppard who came up with the plan to show both countries the error of their ways. As a soldier, he's seen war first hand, and he used that experience to make a realistic scenario showing both countries what would happen if they carried on the way they were. Thus the military man actually USES war to show how awful it is. That shows true intelligence.

What a well thought-out post, Linzi...

I agree 100% and I don't see a way anyone could invalidate these arguments.

[FallenAngelII]

You tell people all the time to read (I know how much you love emphasizing) your posts, so why don't you go back and read mine? My 'would have'-scenario was intended to show how unvalid it is, because you were using one to back up your argumentation.. I don't make it sound like John increasing his army was a result of the unfair trade offer.

You said John should have kept negotiating and I explained why it would have made no sense to keep negotiating.

Again, if you had read my previous post, you'd know that the way I see it, the increase of John's army was a response to the technological advancement of Rodneys people.. Because the Hallonans had no way of knowing what Nola was able and willing to do with her technology, they started to built up an army to defend themselves in case she was planning to send some kind of aggressive, highly technological weapon to destroy them all.. Reaction...

The Hallonan's response to the Geldar advancement was per John's request. They didn't spontaneously double their army, that was John.

Because John had no way of knowing what Rodney's intentions were, John doubled the size of his army. And while Nola did indeed build bombs, she didn't seem keen on using them 'til the Hallonans attacked (semi-justified because of the stealing, but full-out war?) and Rodney didn't intend for them to have bombs. They figured it out on their own.

John did a lot of things that eventually lead to the war. Some of these were not intentional. But John did a lot of thing, the brunt of things (IMO) that lead to war.

While Rodney did things of his own, John did more. He especially hurt things when negotiating peace. You have yet to address his insistent nagging about cheating.

Note how I've never said that John started the war. I merely said that John did a lot of things that lead to the war taking place, however indirect and unintentional those actions might have been. While Rodney shared in the mistakes that lead to the war, John (IMO) did a lot more (and his attitude towards Rodney and the Geldarians when talking to Baten didn't exactly help either).

You said (and I quote):
"And YOU must admit: Had Rodney not insulted the Hallonans with his serious and unfair trade offer, John would have never increased his army and it never would have come to this..."

[Callie]

The chest game at the end was a nice touch.

Did I miss something?!

[FallenAngelII]

Did I miss something?!

Well, there was that one scene where John grabbed Rodney by his chest

[Alipeeps]

Invasion? Building an underground mine and stealing coal = Invasion?!

Am I invading France if I dig under the Paris bank and steal some of their money?! It was a 100% pacific act of theft.

If your country's government ordered you to do it and provided you the resources etc to do it then yes, it is an act of aggression - it probably would not be considered an invasion as you are just one person.

Do you really think they sent their army to do the tunnel digging and coal mining instead of scientists, engineers and coal miners?!

What kind of idiots sents soldiers to do that kind of jobs?!


John sent the citrus (and from the sound of it other things), which insulted Rodney, which the villagers took as a great insult as well. It was juvenile.

Rodney gave John a bad trade offer and he increased his army (you make it sound like the increase was a result of the trade offer). Does that sound like a logical step to you? John increased his army because Rodney gave his people technology. Instead of giving his own people technology, he just inflated his army, as if that'd be the answer.

I never said Rodney wasn't guilty. On the contrary, I said he had a part in it as well and that he did quite a few things that played a part of it.

However, all of Rodney's actions were indirect causes. All of John's were direct. Especially after they discovered it wasn't a game, what with the constant name-calling and show of animosity around Baten, including agreeing with Baten on certain things like how attacking would've been a good thing to do.

Again, you are inferring things that are by no means certain - we don't know John sent "other things" too. John sent citrus as a joke - knowing that Rodney hates citrus. He didn't necessarily know that Rodney had taught his country that citrus was dangerous and bad etc etc etc. Baten's comment about Nola's people now thinking everything is poisonous tells us that Rodney (who we know is a hypochondriac and forever worrying about stuff like that) passing on his own personality quirks to his people in the game, essentially molding them in his image!

You also keep saying that Rodney's build up of technology was entirely benevolent and that John's response (building up his military) was inappropriate and war-mongering... In the context of the game (which is what it still was at this point) Rodney was cheating by giving his people technological advancements which were far more advanced than they could ever have achieved in their natural development - as became obvious later in the episode, this behaviour was dangerous in and of itself and lead his people into technological developments that they were not ready to deal with and whose consequences they had not fully considered. (It is for precisely this reason that e.g. in Star Trek, they have the Prime Directive - interfering in the technological development of a people, particularly by providing them technology beyond their current level of development, is dangerous and more often than not leads to that civilisation destroying itself).

John's response was to build up his military - you say this was an act of aggression and why didn't he just give his people technology too? First of all - two wrongs do not make a right. Secondly, John doesn't have the technological knowledge that Rodney does to be able to teach his people about technological advancements and thirdly.. John was sticking to the rules. He responded by doing what he could within the context of the level of development of his people.. without artificially advancing them, as Rodney had, his only real available response to protect his people was to build up their defenses... that means the army and the defensive fortifications that he wanted lumber to build. The Geldars' increasing level of technological advancement was putting them in a position of superiority over the Hallonens and John had to do something to try and protect them. If he HADN'T built up his army, what would he have been able to do when the Geldars invaded his country to steal his coal? Nothing. And what would the Geldars have decided they needed and come to just take next? Where would that have led? To the Hallonens being utterly subjugated by the Geldars.

It's not an invasion. It's like saying if I sent ten people into your country to steal an Ipod, it's an invasion. It's not an act of war. It's an act of theft, yes. A very serious one.

Not an invasion and not an act of war.

Your analogy is inaccurate - you are talking about is on a small, personal scale. What we are talking about in this situation is a government-level decision to breach a country's borders and send personnel and equipment to steal that country's resources. That IS invasion and it IS an act of war. If, for example, the Danish government deliberately sent a group of people across the border into Swedish territory and had them cut down a load of trees and bring them back to Denmark, that would be considered an invasion and could be considered an act of war should the Swedish government choose to respond to it as such. Every country has the right to defend its borders and its resources - when "theft" is ordered by the government of a country against another country, that is invasion, that is an act of war. As mentioned above, Kuwait is a perfect example...

While Rodney fostered a land of scientists and, ultimately, coal thieves, John fostered a land of warriors expecting the Geldars to attack. Then when the Geldars' theft was discovered, they went to war (against the entire country).

John tried to dissuade Baten from attacking, yes. But when Baten asked is attacking wouldn't be John's response, he just got a tight-lipped look on his face and stayed quiet.

I agree that John could have tried harder to lie and convince Baten otherwise at this point but the problem is that.. it would have been a lie, and Baten knew it. Baten has been acting on John's orders for over two years and he knows John's strategies etc and he knows full well that, had this still been a game and not real, attacking the mine is exactly what John would have ordered. John's uneasy response is because he knows that Baten knows this and would not believe him if he tried to say it wouldn't....

If I'm playing an RTS and an ally or a former ally (one I'm not currently fighting) impeached on my territory, I'd smite whoever's doing the impeaching. I'd demand compensation. But I wouldn't immediately launch a full-scale attack on their entire empire.

No one should.

"Whoever's doing the impeaching" is the GOVERNMENT of your "ally or former ally". It's not just a bunch of citizens acting on their own and sneaking into your country to steal stuff - it's a government-sanctioned RAID on your country! Who else are you going to "smite", if not the leaders of that country?!

The Hallorans saw the Geldar invasion of their country and their continued refusal to stop their actions with the mine as confirmation of the fact that these people had no respect for their country's borders, for their rights as a people and would never negotiate with them - they saw attacking Geldar as the only way to make these people stop what they were doing.

Imagine the Saudi government sending 20 people to steal, oh, say, diamonds from the United States. Now imagine George W. Bush discovering it and waging war on Saudi Arabia.

Aside from the fact that Dubya would never do ANYTHING to upset his good pals the Saudis, if the government ordered 20 people to go and steal diamonds from the US then YES, it would be cause for war. As I said, Dubya would never openly go against the Saudis as he wants their support and their oil but you can bet that there would be some seriously heated manouvreing behind the scenes and there WOULD be long-term consequences!

[FallenAngelII]

If your country's government ordered you to do it and provided you the resources etc to do it then yes, it is an act of aggression - it probably would not be considered an invasion as you are just one person.

Again, you are inferring things that are by no means certain - we don't know John sent "other things" too. John sent citrus as a joke - knowing that Rodney hates citrus. He didn't necessarily know that Rodney had taught his country that citrus was dangerous and bad etc etc etc. Baten's comment about Nola's people now thinking everything is poisonous tells us that Rodney (who we know is a hypochondriac and forever worrying about stuff like that) passing on his own personality quirks to his people in the game, essentially molding them in his image!

You also keep saying that Rodney's build up of technology was entirely benevolent and that John's response (building up his military) was inappropriate and war-mongering... In the context of the game (which is what it still was at this point) Rodney was cheating by giving his people technological advancements which were far more advanced than they could ever have achieved in their natural development - as became obvious later in the episode, this behaviour was dangerous in and of itself and lead his people into technological developments that they were not ready to deal with and whose consequences they had not fully considered. (It is for precisely this reason that e.g. in Star Trek, they have the Prime Directive - interfering in the technological development of a people, particularly by providing them technology beyond their current level of development, is dangerous and more often than not leads to that civilisation destroying itself).

John's response was to build up his military - you say this was an act of aggression and why didn't he just give his people technology too? First of all - two wrongs do not make a right. Secondly, John doesn't have the technological knowledge that Rodney does to be able to teach his people about technological advancements and thirdly.. John was sticking to the rules. He responded by doing what he could within the context of the level of development of his people.. without artificially advancing them, as Rodney had, his only real available response to protect his people was to build up their defenses... that means the army and the defensive fortifications that he wanted lumber to build. The Geldars' increasing level of technological advancement was putting them in a position of superiority over the Hallonens and John had to do something to try and protect them. If he HADN'T built up his army, what would he have been able to do when the Geldars invaded his country to steal his coal? Nothing. And what would the Geldars have decided they needed and come to just take next? Where would that have led? To the Hallonens being utterly subjugated by the Geldars.



Your analogy is inaccurate - you are talking about is on a small, personal scale. What we are talking about in this situation is a government-level decision to breach a country's borders and send personnel and equipment to steal that country's resources. That IS invasion and it IS an act of war. If, for example, the Danish government deliberately sent a group of people across the border into Swedish territory and had them cut down a load of trees and bring them back to Denmark, that would be considered an invasion and could be considered an act of war should the Swedish government choose to respond to it as such. Every country has the right to defend its borders and its resources - when "theft" is ordered by the government of a country against another country, that is invasion, that is an act of war. As mentioned above, Kuwait is a perfect example...



I agree that John could have tried harder to lie and convince Baten otherwise at this point but the problem is that.. it would have been a lie, and Baten knew it. Baten has been acting on John's orders for over two years and he knows John's strategies etc and he knows full well that, had this still been a game and not real, attacking the mine is exactly what John would have ordered. John's uneasy response is because he knows that Baten knows this and would not believe him if he tried to say it wouldn't....



"Whoever's doing the impeaching" is the GOVERNMENT of your "ally or former ally". It's not just a bunch of citizens acting on their own and sneaking into your country to steal stuff - it's a government-sanctioned RAID on your country! Who else are you going to "smite", if not the leaders of that country?!

The Hallorans saw the Geldar invasion of their country and their continued refusal to stop their actions with the mine as confirmation of the fact that these people had no respect for their country's borders, for their rights as a people and would never negotiate with them - they saw attacking Geldar as the only way to make these people stop what they were doing.



Aside from the fact that Dubya would never do ANYTHING to upset his good pals the Saudis, if the government ordered 20 people to go and steal diamonds from the US then YES, it would be cause for war. As I said, Dubya would never openly go against the Saudis as he wants their support and their oil but you can bet that there would be some seriously heated manouvreing behind the scenes and there WOULD be long-term consequences!

Why would Rodney program his people into thinking this and that was poisonous? And how would Baten know the Geldarans thought this and that was poisonous if John hadn't sent Rodney those things? Of course, this is speculation, but it's not baseless.

Rodney's intentions were benevolent. He gave them lots of things to make their lives easier, none of which were weapons. They, however, combined the knowledge he gave them into bombs. But Rodney did not intend this.

What, was he supposed to assume that his A.I. characters might randomly build bombs and wage war on their own?

John assumed Rodney would attack him, something Rodney (for all we know) didn't intend. That the Geldarians might ultimately attack sometime later on is just a lucky coincidence.

I still think waging full out war because they ordered resource theft is going too far. Blowing up the mine and setting an example by jailing the "invaders", yes. Full-scale all-out war? No.

You can smite a government through other means than a full scale war that you know will end badly (because while your army is bigger, theirs is more advanced).

And I really doubt Sweden would wage war on Denmark for stealing wood.

John wouldn't have had to lie. He would only have retaliated with an attack on the mine and possible war if it had been a game. But now that he knows it's real life, he wouldn't. And he could at least have tried to lie.

I don't doubt that in real life, doing something like this would have long term consequences. But no two 1st world countries (i.e. "Civilized") would wage full scale war on each other over something like this.

[Linzi]

It's not an invasion. It's like saying if I sent ten people into your country to steal an Ipod, it's an invasion. It's not an act of war. It's an act of theft, yes. A very serious one.

But, a few Hallonan's weren't stealing one person's ipod, were they? They were stealing natural resources of a neighbouring country. Entering en masse without permission. Illegally entering it and illegally trying to obtain coal.
Of course that can be seen as an act of war! As has already been stated here, wars have started over similar things on this planet!
Using a few people stealing an ipod isn't the same, as the ipod belongs to one person and isn't of national significance. The coal is a valuable resource. So your analogy is ridiculous and quite inappropriate.

[FallenAngelII]

QUOTE]

But, a few Hallonan's weren't stealing one person's ipod, were they? They were stealing natural resources of a neighbouring country. Entering en masse without permission. Illegally entering it and illegally trying to obtain coal.
Of course that can be seen as an act of war! As has already been stated here, wars have started over similar things on this planet!
Using a few people stealing an ipod isn't the same, as the ipod belongs to one person and isn't of national significance. The coal is a valuable resource. So your analogy is ridiculous and quite inappropriate.

The Hallonans couldn't use the coal because they didn't have the capabilities to build a mine there (or they would have, that or John and the Hallonans just didn't care about it). So it's not like they stole the crown jewels.

Still theft and still very, very bad, but you're talking about it as if they took something the Hallonans were using.

That aside, stealing coal still does not merit full-out war. Yes, it merits rataliation. But full-out war against a country you know has superior technology? That's just asking for a lose-lose scenario.

[tbl]

The Hallonans couldn't use the coal because they didn't have the capabilities to build a mine there (or they would have, that or John and the Hallonans just didn't care about it). So it's not like they stole the crown jewels.

Still theft and still very, very bad, but you're talking about it as if they took something the Hallonans were using.

That aside, stealing coal still does not merit full-out war. Yes, it merits rataliation. But full-out war against a country you know has superior technology? That's just asking for a lose-lose scenario.

It's not so much that they stole the coal, as invading Hallonan territory to do it. That sounds like an act of war.

[caty]

The Hallonan's response to the Geldar advancement was per John's request. They didn't spontaneously double their army, that was John.

Because John had no way of knowing what Rodney's intentions were, John doubled the size of his army. And while Nola did indeed build bombs, she didn't seem keen on using them 'til the Hallonans attacked (semi-justified because of the stealing, but full-out war?) and Rodney didn't intend for them to have bombs. They figured it out on their own.

John did a lot of things that eventually lead to the war. Some of these were not intentional. But John did a lot of thing, the brunt of things (IMO) that lead to war.

While Rodney did things of his own, John did more. He especially hurt things when negotiating peace. You have yet to address his insistent nagging about cheating.

Note how I've never said that John started the war. I merely said that John did a lot of things that lead to the war taking place, however indirect and unintentional those actions might have been. While Rodney shared in the mistakes that lead to the war, John (IMO) did a lot more (and his attitude towards Rodney and the Geldarians when talking to Baten didn't exactly help either).

You said (and I quote):
"And YOU must admit: Had Rodney not insulted the Hallonans with his serious and unfair trade offer, John would have never increased his army and it never would have come to this..."

How often do I have to repeat myself?? I used that example to show you how invalid
a 'what if' or 'would have' - scenario is for any argumentation... Maybe I could have made it clearer in my original post, but I explained what I intended with this argument in my next post which again, you don't seem to want to read.

Yes, maybe John should have tried more to convince Baten that an attack wasn't neccessary.. But Baten has asked him to give an honest answer and that's what he did. As Linzi pointed out earlier.. Baten would have known if he had lied.

[FallenAngelII]

How often do I have to repeat myself?? I used that example to show you how invalid
a 'what if' or 'would have' - scenario is for any argumentation... Maybe I could have made it clearer in my original post, but I explained what I intended with this argument in my next post which again, you don't seem to want to read.

Yes, maybe John should have tried more to convince Baten that an attack wasn't neccessary.. But Baten has asked him to give an honest answer and that's what he did. As Linzi pointed out earlier.. Baten would have known if he had lied.

So your entire post was a "What if"? Then let's forget about it altogether.

And in real life John would've attacked a country with superior technology over coaltheft? I'm not arguing against attacking the mine. I'm arguing against the further attack.

Of course, John had no opinion on that. I'm challenging the claim that John would've agreed to full-scale war.

It's not so much that they stole the coal, as invading Hallonan territory to do it. That sounds like an act of war.

Yes, but was it the right or smartest thing to launch a full-scale attack because of it?

[caty]

Rodney's intentions were benevolent. He gave them lots of things to make their lives easier, none of which were weapons. They, however, combined the knowledge he gave them into bombs. But Rodney did not intend this.

What, was he supposed to assume that his A.I. characters might randomly build bombs and wage war on their own?

You keep making the excuse that Rodney didn't teach them to built a bomb. and that they figured it out on their own... Do you honestly think that Rodney is so naive as to give them the resources to build a bomb without actually realizing what they could do with it? Rodney knows how to build a bomb, so he knows what's needed for that..
Once you have the resources, it's not very hard to figure out how to build a common bomb, Rodney must have seen the possibility..

He was just so surprised by it, because they turned out to be real people with real brains...

[Alipeeps]

John assumed Rodney would attack him, something Rodney (for all we know) didn't intend. That the Geldarians might ultimately attack sometime later on is just a lucky coincidence.

I still think waging full out war because they ordered resource theft is going too far. Blowing up the mine and setting an example by jailing the "invaders", yes. Full-scale all-out war? No.

You can smite a government through other means than a full scale war that you know will end badly (because while your army is bigger, theirs is more advanced).

[snip]

I don't doubt that in real life, doing something like this would have long term consequences. But no two 1st world countries (i.e. "Civilized") would wage full scale war on each other over something like this.

And Rodney did attack him - he ordered an invasion of John's country.

Given the level of development of the people concerned - what other option is there? The government refuses to negotiate with you. They invade your country and steal your resources. What other option do you have to make them stop other than military retaliation?

Btw, if you seriously think attacking the mine, taking prisoners and then holding them to ransom would decrease tensions and bring an end to the situation without leading to war then boy, it must be nice there on whatever planet you're living on...

Probably not because a) we would try to negotiate first, b) the international community would also get involved and, most importantly, c) we are fully aware of the devastating consequences of war and the the fact that it won't solve our problems so easily. However, we are talking here about civlisations at a stage of development equivalent to the middle ages. Have you read history books? D'you have any idea how many wars there were in those times?!

The Hallonans couldn't use the coal because they didn't have the capabilities to build a mine there (or they would have, that or John and the Hallonans just didn't care about it). So it's not like they stole the crown jewels.

Still theft and still very, very bad, but you're talking about it as if they took something the Hallonans were using.

That aside, stealing coal still does not merit full-out war. Yes, it merits rataliation. But full-out war against a country you know has superior technology? That's just asking for a lose-lose scenario.

Sooo.... it's okay for them to invade the country and steal it's natural resources because they weren't using it anyway? That's one heck of a slippery slope you're treading there my friend. What next? Kidnap their children and bring them to Geldar to be educated? Well, the Hallorans aren't "using" their children properly are they? They're not teaching them all the wonderful technological advancements that the Geldars have.. they're wasting these children's abilities... surely they'd be a much more useful, important resource to Geldar?

In the context of this level of development - middle ages - then yes, stealing a country's resources does merit full-out war. Wars were started over far less in those times in our own history. As for the argument that we shouldn't defend our country's rights because the aggressor country is more technologically advanced? Well a) should they just give up and let the Geldars do whatever they want to them then? b) the whole reason the country built up their army was so that they would have a better chance of defending themselves against a more advanced country and c) your argument thus far has been that the technological advancement of Geldar was entirely benevolent and in no way threatening to the Hallorans and that John's response to it (building up the army) was excessive and war-mongering but now you're effectively saying that the Geldars' technological advancement should have acted as a deterrant to keep the Hallorans in their place and make sure they don't get uppity enough to try and defend themselves against a "superior" enemy. Make up your mind please.. you can't have it both ways...

[FallenAngelII]

You keep making the excuse that Rodney didn't teach them to built a bomb. and that they figured it out on their own... Do you honestly think that Rodney is so naive as to give them the resources to build a bomb without actually realizing what they could do with it? Rodney knows how to build a bomb, so he knows what's needed for that..
Once you have the resources, it's not very hard to figure out how to build a common bomb, Rodney must have seen the possibility..

He was just so surprised by it, because they turned out to be real people with real brains...

That's... the... point!

To Rodney and John, it was game. Are you blaming Rodney for not assuming the people he was controlling were real people who could combine his teachings into a bomb?!

Rodney's intentions were benevolent. We have no indication of him teaching them how to make weapons. They combined everything he taught them into that.

[caty]

So your entire post was a "What if"? Then let's forget about it altogether.

I'm quoting my own post now so you can see that the only what-if scenario in my post was the one we are talking about...
The other 'if' in my post was a question deirected at you...
Here, I'll even highlight it for you...

You are intentionally ignoring any valid point I or other posters make, because your whole argumentation just lacks common sense (And no, I still won't call you 'stupid' or 'an idiot' because you have a different opinion)

What John did was a fair reaction to the build up Rodney started.
Baten himself said that the offer to negatiate from Nola was an insult, so why keep negotiating? The citrus was just an answer to Geldars insult (and you're acting like the Geldarians were allergic to Citrus... They weren't. They just didn't like it all of a sudden, because the oracle told them to. "You didn't used to" hate Citrus, Baten said so himself).
Would you keep negotiating with me if I offered you two Euros for your house?

And YOU must admit: Had Rodney not insulted the Hallonans with his serious and unfair trade offer, John would have never increased his army and it never would have come to this...
The 'would haves'... You'll never get far with argumenting with 'would haves'..

No matter how you twist the facts to make it fit to your argument, you won't convince me that it was all John's fault... It just wasn't!
They were equally at fault...