The Wraith: Evil or Just Misunderstood?

[tbl]

Wow, that simple argument just invalidated 50 pages of arguments (there's been more threads about this).

More a joke than anything else. So, um, yeh...

[Gemini]

I see in the Wraith an uncivilised race, but however if the humans want to escape this terrible enemy which hunts humans to stay alive is to find an alternative food-source for the Wraith (some kind of humans, with a very low level of intelligence, cow-like, with very fast reproduction possibility) and to offer that for the Wraith.
As we know, they're in a civil war because shortage of food. With this unepuisable source of nourishment for Wraith, they would've become best friends with their former food source and they can have the chance to become civilised. This kind of "farming" will force them to make more permanent settlements on planets (rather than living on hive-ships) for the growth of their "personalised cows".

Maybe this will get to a director of Stargate Atlantis who knows, it gives a new idea, rather than terminating them at all costs.

[SoulReaver]

It robs them of their memories and, thus, their personalities. Their entire persona would be dead. What's left behind are empty shells of human beings with basic grasps of communication.

so if one of your own relatives were in an advanced stage of Alzheimer's you'd consider them "empty shells" ? would you stop visiting them ? stop calling them by their names ? (because according to you they'd be dead, right ? so what's the point in visiting a dead person -)

Not to mention that they go from immortal (as long as they feed) to having a lifespan of, approximately 70-80 years. That is murder. Not a fast one, but a slow one.

It's like saying that if I poisoned your tea to reduce your lifetime to 3 hours, it wouldn't really be murder because you'd still be very much alive after the use.

rofl
guess anything becomes murder if you broaden (conveniently) the definition of murder to the extreme
btw your tea analogy doesn't hold, the substance you describe is basically a slow-working poison - it damages the organism & is meant to kill - not a genetic-altering substance
the retrovirus' purpose on the other hand is not to kill but to alter the subject's genes. it does not cause them to die, it causes them to live a life whose incidental consequence is ultimately death
furthermore the wraith don't live forever - if they did the population would explode. the various factors that keep the numbers stable are not genetic, but they exist nonetheless, this in effect does give them a de facto lifespan
you're also assuming the humanized wraith will inevitably die which isn't so unless u can predict the future. if you take the antidote to the poisoned tea (if) then it ain't murder is it ?

also 3 hours could be considered murder, however a human lifespan is not murder - from the human perspective. guess you're considering things from the wraith point of view but then again that's irrelevant to the present topic as we're debating what constitutes murder by human standards. we don't even know if the wraith have a notion of murder as such (criminally-wise) or if killing is just a normal part of their lifestyle (which isn't implausible, is it)

the virus doesn't kill no matter how you wanna look at it, so it's not murder
it changes the subject to a human. come to think of it, it's a very humane treatment isn't it -)



also as I pointed out the effects of the virus are temporary (it's as if your lifespan were only reduced to 3 hours only as long as you kept sipping the tea, stop drinking and you're back to your human lifespan). this alone invalidates your argument

[SoulReaver]

Or so they could suck the life out of cows or something-like the Iratus bug seems able to do.

isn't it stated somewhere that the wraith can feed off each other as well ?

[Isil'zha]

isn't it stated somewhere that the wraith can feed off each other as well ?

They can, but that seems to be more them sucking the juice from the last few meals out than anything else. It's certainly not a viable way to survive.

[SoulReaver]

They can, but that seems to be more them sucking the juice from the last few meals out than anything else. It's certainly not a viable way to survive.

which episode was that ?

also I doubt this would be like you describe, because if a wraith drains another wraith who just drained a human, then the 1st wraith should get just as much out of the 2nd wraith as it would have had it drained the human directly - or almost (if you take entropy into account some of the energy would be "lost")

of course that's only considering the energetic point of view but that's all we have if nothing more is stated within the show that states otherwise

[Isil'zha]

I think it was the Defiant One.

[FallenAngelII]

I see in the Wraith an uncivilised race, but however if the humans want to escape this terrible enemy which hunts humans to stay alive is to find an alternative food-source for the Wraith (some kind of humans, with a very low level of intelligence, cow-like, with very fast reproduction possibility) and to offer that for the Wraith.
As we know, they're in a civil war because shortage of food. With this unepuisable source of nourishment for Wraith, they would've become best friends with their former food source and they can have the chance to become civilised. This kind of "farming" will force them to make more permanent settlements on planets (rather than living on hive-ships) for the growth of their "personalised cows".

Maybe this will get to a director of Stargate Atlantis who knows, it gives a new idea, rather than terminating them at all costs.

They're uncivilized? At least all of their farm animals are free-roaming and are free to live as they choose 'til culling time. They aren't put in cages or force fed to fatten them up.

so if one of your own relatives were in an advanced stage of Alzheimer's you'd consider them "empty shells" ? would you stop visiting them ? stop calling them by their names ? (because according to you they'd be dead, right ? so what's the point in visiting a dead person -)
rofl
guess anything becomes murder if you broaden (conveniently) the definition of murder to the extreme
btw your tea analogy doesn't hold, the substance you describe is basically a slow-working poison - it damages the organism & is meant to kill - not a genetic-altering substance
the retrovirus' purpose on the other hand is not to kill but to alter the subject's genes. it does not cause them to die, it causes them to live a life whose incidental consequence is ultimately death
furthermore the wraith don't live forever - if they did the population would explode. the various factors that keep the numbers stable are not genetic, but they exist nonetheless, this in effect does give them a de facto lifespan
you're also assuming the humanized wraith will inevitably die which isn't so unless u can predict the future. if you take the antidote to the poisoned tea (if) then it ain't murder is it ?

also 3 hours could be considered murder, however a human lifespan is not murder - from the human perspective. guess you're considering things from the wraith point of view but then again that's irrelevant to the present topic as we're debating what constitutes murder by human standards. we don't even know if the wraith have a notion of murder as such (criminally-wise) or if killing is just a normal part of their lifestyle (which isn't implausible, is it)

the virus doesn't kill no matter how you wanna look at it, so it's not murder
it changes the subject to a human. come to think of it, it's a very humane treatment isn't it -)



also as I pointed out the effects of the virus are temporary (it's as if your lifespan were only reduced to 3 hours only as long as you kept sipping the tea, stop drinking and you're back to your human lifespan). this alone invalidates your argument

Alzheimers is a disease. Are you comparing the retrovirus to a disease?

Alzheimers doesn't rob the afflicted of their entire persona. They can still get blinding flashes of clariness. The retrovirus (the perfected version they're trying to make) robs someone of all of their persona.

Even if the Wraith don't live forever, they live for a very long time. How is the retrovirus not comparable to a poison if it shortens their lifespan considerably?

And you really think they won't get a human lifespan when robbed of their ability to feed off of whatever it is they feed off and having their physiology changed forever?

[FallenAngelII]

The Wraith can feed off each other. The one in "The Defiant One" did. However, logically, doing this will only give you the "life force" of the Wraith you're feeding on plus whatever extra "life force" they might have from recent feedings.

[SoulReaver]

Alzheimers is a disease. Are you comparing the retrovirus to a disease?

and what's so far-fetched about a disease being caused by a virus ?
dang, I could have sworn many a disease was caused by a virus ( )

Alzheimers doesn't rob the afflicted of their entire persona. They can still get blinding flashes of clariness. The retrovirus (the perfected version they're trying to make) robs someone of all of their persona.

depends how you define persona: is memory = persona ? and even so, it wouldn't be murder. if I knocked u on the head & somehow made you lose your memory - permanently - yet you still remained alive & (physically) well, would that be murder ? morally ? even legally (since you like to bring up law) ?

on the other hand in some cases Alzheimers patients lose their memory - permanently (no fancy "flashes" of clarity or whatever) - they still know how to speak (just like the human wraith) yet they even forget who their children are...even their kids come to visit them day after day

also, do you think a murderer should be spared punishment if he somehow loses his memory ? (this one should be a toughie -)

Even if the Wraith don't live forever, they live for a very long time. How is the retrovirus not comparable to a poison if it shortens their lifespan considerably?

it doesn't harm or kill nor is it meant to => not poison

And you really think they won't get a human lifespan when robbed of their ability to feed off of whatever it is they feed off and having their physiology changed forever?

huh ? the changes are not permanent.
and even if they were - they'd become human. that's it. and the changes would still be reversible. it's not like you're cutting off their heads or blowing them to pieces

[SoulReaver]

The Wraith can feed off each other. The one in "The Defiant One" did. However, logically, doing this will only give you the "life force" of the Wraith you're feeding on plus whatever extra "life force" they might have from recent feedings.

in other words feeding off a wraith that drained, say, 2 humans would be like draining at least 2 humans ? well that's even better than feeding off a human...

[FallenAngelII]

I typed in a lengthy reply but then my computer crashed, so meh.

I'll just reply to your last post then:
Feeding off a Wraith can (logically) never be used as an endless cycle. You'd get the energy of the Wraith + whatever remains of their recent feedings. Unless the Wraith you feed off does not receive the Gift of Life, the damage he sustained from the feeding will remain.

This is all assumption, but it's logical. Otherwise, the Wraith in "The Defiant One" wouldn't have had to feed off all of his crewmates 'til they were all dead. They could all have fed off each other in an endless cycle 'til someone found them.

Let's say you have 10 Wraith. Each Wraith starts weith 100% energy. As each day passes they'll lose 10% of that energy.

Day 2, 900% energy remains. Wraith 1 feeds off Wraith 2, taking 10%. He'll have 100% while Wraith 2 has 80%. The collective percentage will still be 900%.

[SoulReaver]

well obviously in such a scenario the collective energy of the wraith will inexorably diminish, that's the case for all living things - that's the 2nd principle of thermodynamics (there's another formulation for this principle involving life, it states that any animal trapped in a Closed System will die sooner or later - even though the total energy within that system remains constant : "life energy" + heat, the latter increasing at the former's expense) - ultimately only one wraith will be left & that fella's days would be numbered too. so the wraith need an outside source if they want to perpetuate their race. but then again such long-term considerations are kinda futile as this applies to the entire universe (a closed system ?) since eventually all life in the universe will cease & things will devolve into entropic chaos, so ultimately we're all goners anyway :|