Michael (218)

[ShadowMaat]

How's this for an analogy, Det:

Aliens abduct you. They find some trace of Neanderthal gene in you and alter your make-up so that you're a full-blown 'Thal with only vague memories of your life as a Homo Sapien. The aliens claim that these memories are false, residuals from your time in the captivity of the Sap-heads.

Sapiens are, they say, a wholly evil race. Saps commit horrible atrocities- they rape each other, murder each other, kill animals for no good reason, destroy habitats, poison the land, sea, and air, mutilate the natural order of things, and are generally hateful and irredeemably violent.

They lie and tell you that you've always been a 'Thal, that you have a family back home that loves you and that you're part of an important exploratory mission that is also trying to save the universe from utter destruction at the hands of the Saps. But you can't help feeling strange, violent compulsions and having memories of another life... as a Sap.

Then you find out that you have, in fact, always been a Sapien and that you've been lied to by your captors (not rescuers). They attempt to explain off what they've done (taking you away fromyour home, family, environment and the only life you've ever known) by saying that you're better off as a Neanderthal, that they've "cured" you of your Sapien-ness and isn't being a 'Thal so much better than the vicious ways of the Sapiens, anyway?

Bit of a weird comparison, maybe, but the point is that just because the Wraith way of life isn't like OUR way of life doesn't necessarily mean that their lifestyle isn't "good" for them.

It remains to be seen exactly what that lifestyle is, how it works for them and whether or not they'd be better off as humans.

There are a couple of threads around discussing whether or not the Wraith are evil. Might be worth dragging one up again for deeper discussion.

[DetriusXii]

How's this for an analogy, Det:

Aliens abduct you. They find some trace of Neanderthal gene in you and alter your make-up so that you're a full-blown 'Thal with only vague memories of your life as a Homo Sapien. The aliens claim that these memories are false, residuals from your time in the captivity of the Sap-heads.

Sapiens are, they say, a wholly evil race. Saps commit horrible atrocities- they rape each other, murder each other, kill animals for no good reason, destroy habitats, poison the land, sea, and air, mutilate the natural order of things, and are generally hateful and irredeemably violent.

They lie and tell you that you've always been a 'Thal, that you have a family back home that loves you and that you're part of an important exploratory mission that is also trying to save the universe from utter destruction at the hands of the Saps. But you can't help feeling strange, violent compulsions and having memories of another life... as a Sap.

Then you find out that you have, in fact, always been a Sapien and that you've been lied to by your captors (not rescuers). They attempt to explain off what they've done (taking you away fromyour home, family, environment and the only life you've ever known) by saying that you're better off as a Neanderthal, that they've "cured" you of your Sapien-ness and isn't being a 'Thal so much better than the vicious ways of the Sapiens, anyway?

I agree that the ruse was dishonest and they should have just started with the truth. Explain to Micheal why its in everyone's interest, including the Wraith's, to become human.

Bit of a weird comparison, maybe, but the point is that just because the Wraith way of life isn't like OUR way of life doesn't necessarily mean that their lifestyle isn't "good" for them.

It remains to be seen exactly what that lifestyle is, how it works for them and whether or not they'd be better off as humans.

There are a couple of threads around discussing whether or not the Wraith are evil. Might be worth dragging one up again for deeper discussion.

You can't argue about morality once you play the cultural relativism card. Their lifestyle is good for them but so is serial killer's lifestyle of randomly murdering people. We don't have to respect either lifestyle because it infringes on human liberty. The Wraith's sole existence is to deny another person their own existence. It makes their existence immoral and if they were moral creatures, they'd end their cycle of feeding by suicide if necessary. The Wraith can't look down on us the same way we look down on cattle because cattle don't possess a personality (taken from Warren's moral space traveller that went into the argument of defining a person philosophically).

[Nurgle]

There is a problem with the "human or death" choice when it comes to the Wraith. The wraith are immortal, and by making them into human, removing their ability to regenerate, you are artificially shortening their otherwise limitless lifespan. While it may take a few years for them to die of aging, you are still killing them.

It could be considered an extremely cruel way of killing them, since this formally immortal sentient being KNOWS his lifespan is know limited.

[randy]

--Morality can also have no bearing on the argument - errant assumption. Underlying part can be merely survival for the race - whether humans deem unethical or not. The Wraith's impetus need to syphon Humans is like any other life cycle; the need to survive. The sole fact that Humans have the cognitive ability to recognize their surroundings, interact, construct social standards, create complex thoughts does not preclude them from being fed upon. Wraiths did not arbitrarily choose to evolve from the iratus bug into their present state (unless evidence suggest otherwise). The Wraith have every right to exist like any other human. Coincidentally, humans have become apt fodder to their dietary needs; ingrained in their culture for eons. If a person was brought up in cannibalism - which has been documented in Africa - can I tell them they have no morals? They believed consuming their enemies would make them stronger. The relativism card seems relevant in this case. As the previous poster mentioned we do not know the entirety of the Wraith civilization; feeding off humans could be pure convinience instead of prying for surrogate sources. There could be a prospect of Wraith groups (holding esoteric views) living in inconvinience, on a distant planet, believing the alternative to be immoral. Regardless, humans have the responsiblity to protect themselves lest be victims to the Wraith; if evolution has not given the tools needed to fend predators such as the Wraith, can you really blame the predator?

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

--Morality can also have no bearing on the argument

I agree. Morality doesn't really come into it - for either side.

I especially liked SM's 'Thal and 'Sap analogy.(BTW, ever read Robert Sawyer's Neanderthal Paralax? Very close to what you described). But I don't blame the humans for using every subterfuge to defeat their predator. As for the way team Atlantis went about it, it was one of those "it seemed like a good idea at the time" things that got quickly out of hand.

[Ouroboros]

It's funny to because for all the talk of the favour they thought they were doing Michael I'd image that from a Wraith perspective what was done to him would be considered a horror story of the highest order. So chilling and seemingly impossible that it might not even be believed by most.

If Wraith told scary stories to their kids the story of Michael the Wraith would surely keep the little green buggers awake all night in their little hibernation pods.

Why does everyone keep positioning the idea that what Atlantis did was somehow wrong? There's several other posts explaining that the Wraith can either be cured of their need for humans or killed. And when the Wraith depend upon other people as food, their act on feeding on another person is wrong. The Wraith don't have a reasonable existence. Their entire existence is immoral because they kill other people for food.

What they did to him was unforgivable. It was like I said ,the stuff of nightmares from his POV. You get taken from your home by hostile aliens who then horribly mutate you into a weaker form that better suits them and tell you that you can either accept this or they're going to outright murder you. You lose your immortality, you lose the physchic connection you have with your people, you lose your family and friends and your identity and then they tell you that they're "doing it for your own good because they've unilaterally decided that your species is "evil" and it's their right to extinct your enite species through this mutation process. Yep they want to do it to the rest of your people to. That means all those people you care about back home, friends, loved ones,family etc. Do you feel the urge to murder them all with nuclear fire rising yet?

The only ethical choice that the Wraith have in their current form is to starve or commit suicide.

This is silly. Nature is loaded with predators, should they all go drown themselves in a river to? Predation is a perfectly reasonable and effective means of survival for a species. It been here since that first mico organism figured out it could eat other micro organisms and it'll be here when all the suns burn out. There's nothing immoral about predators taking lives to continue their own through need of sustinence. We kill each other for much much stupider reasons than they kill us for. If anyone should get nominated for species wide suicide for killing too many sentients without a good enough reason it's going to be us before them.

You're using a false analogy. There's a human survival need for the Wraith to be turned into humans. The Wraith personality gets to exist in a slightly modified vessel. If cows suddenly became people, what need would they have to change humans into cows? And if cows can change humans into cows, why not change cows into humans? They'd have more advantages in human form anyways.

You missed the point. The point was how much would you enjoy being turned into a quote unquote "infearior" lifeform like a Cow/dog/whatever. It was meant to illustrate how the Wraith are going to feel and thus how they're going to react to this drug thing if we pull it on them. I don't really care if it's a flawless analogy in onjective philosohical terms. It works well enough to illustrate that point.

Like they were humans turned into Cows is pretty much exactly how the Wraith are going to feel when we pull it on them. Worse infact since a Human>Cow mutation wouldn't be screwing anyone out of a life of immortality. Yeah that's going to be a sore spot.

Expecting them to thank us for mutating their entire race against their will into a lessser form expressly to further our own interests is going to provoke nothing short of a species wide outrage and a vicious desire to kill all real humans responsible.

We're honestly better off trying to negotiate with them now, that's how bad this plan is. They look at us as pathetic lesser beings sure, and they'd never talk to us on equal terms or agree to any kind of deal. They also don't yet hate us with the seething fire of a million suns though, like they will after we mutate them all and then ask them to say thank you.

[Amaunator]

It's funny to because for all the talk of the favour they thought they were doing Michael I'd image that from a Wraith perspective what was done to him would be considered a horror story of the highest order. So chilling and seemingly impossible that it might not even be believed by most.

If Wraith told scary stories to their kids the story of Michael the Wraith would surely keep the little green buggers awake all night in their little hibernation pods.



What they did to him was unforgivable. It was like I said ,the stuff of nightmares from his POV. You get taken from your home by hostile aliens who then horribly mutate you into a weaker form that better suits them and tell you that you can either accept this or they're going to outright murder you. You lose your immortality, you lose the physchic connection you have with your people, you lose your family and friends and your identity and then they tell you that they're "doing it for your own good because they've unilaterally decided that your species is "evil" and it's their right to extinct your enite species through this mutation process. Yep they want to do it to the rest of your people to. That means all those people you care about back home, friends, loved ones,family etc. Do you feel the urge to murder them all with nuclear fire rising yet?



This is silly. Nature is loaded with predators, should they all go drown themselves in a river to? Predation is a perfectly reasonable and effective means of survival for a species. It been here since that first mico organism figured out it could eat other micro organisms and it'll be here when all the suns burn out. There's nothing immoral about predators taking lives to continue their own through need of sustinence. We kill each other for much much stupider reasons than they kill us for. If anyone should get nominated for species wide suicide for killing too many sentients without a good enough reason it's going to be us before them.



You missed the point. The point was how much would you enjoy being turned into a quote unquote "infearior" lifeform like a Cow/dog/whatever. It was meant to illustrate how the Wraith are going to feel and thus how they're going to react to this drug thing if we pull it on them. I don't really care if it's a flawless analogy in onjective philosohical terms. It works well enough to illustrate that point.

Like they were humans turned into Cows is pretty much exactly how the Wraith are going to feel when we pull it on them. Worse infact since a Human>Cow mutation wouldn't be screwing anyone out of a life of immortality. Yeah that's going to be a sore spot.

Expecting them to thank us for mutating their entire race against their will into a lessser form expressly to further our own interests is going to provoke nothing short of a species wide outrage and a vicious desire to kill all real humans responsible.

We're honestly better off trying to negotiate with them now, that's how bad this plan is. They look at us as pathetic lesser beings sure, and they'd never talk to us on equal terms or agree to any kind of deal. They also don't yet hate us with the seething fire of a million suns though, like they will after we mutate them all and then ask them to say thank you.

Ouroboros and others have done well to explaint the ethical issues of mutilating a Wraith. It's been proven that it is very traumatic for them and an immoral thing to do.

Having said that,

Spoiler:

Michael and his Queen want to drug to use it on their fellow Wraith, to mutilate them and feed on them.

. How moral are the Wraith now?

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

Damn!

Amaunator, I take it that spoiler is for an upcoming ep?

Folks, please be kind and write what ep your spoiler is for. Lots of people, for whatever reason, put current ep details in spoiler space, and I thought that's what I would be reading.

[Amaunator]

Sorry, new to the forum . The spoiler is for SGA-220 "Allies".

[GateByte]

Hi, i've been roaming this board for a couple of months now, but this episode bugged me so much that I felt the need to join in order to express myself.

Ok, I'm not saying the ep is awful or anything (seriously, how can you get worse than The Tower?), I'm just saying that I had some serious issues with what was going on.

First, if they're going to capture a wraith, and want to continue to keep Atlantis a secret, why on Earth would they bring the wraith back to Atlantis. I mean, just keep him at the Alpha site, especially if they just intend to ship him off there when he's no longer being cooperative.
Second, ok, so they brought him to Atlantis, but with his memory wiped, did they really need to tell him it was Atlantis, especially when they weren't sure they could trust him? And sure, yeah, let's just invite the 'wraith-turned-human' to live with us in our city, like we're all just one big happy family.
Third, once Michael knew he was a wraith and became uncooperative, why transport him to the alpha site. It's less secure, and the stargate is way more accessible in the event he gets free. I think they should have just kept him caged up, and waited to see what happened. I mean, if they don't want to kill him while he's a human, just wait until he turns wraith, then do it, since morals/ethics seemed to be thrown out the window slightly anyway.

I did however like that 'our' characters were the bad guys. I mean its good to see a different side of them, even if it seemed like Ronon was the only sane one, and everyone else was acting OOC, especially Weir.

Ok, so rant over. Sorry for the long post, just thought I'd vent my frustration.

And, as a side note, OMG I should never have watched this ep in the dark with headphones, seriously almost gave me a heart attack when Michael had the flash of himself as a wraith for the first time. Connor Trinneer did a great job as both the human and wraith sides of Michael, and I think pushed the ep away from bad to Ok in my books.

[PG15]

First of all, these are very good points (they just didn't bother me as much), but I'll try to argue them anyhow. I'll probably fail miserably, but hey, same old samd old.

First, if they're going to capture a wraith, and want to continue to keep Atlantis a secret, why on Earth would they bring the wraith back to Atlantis. I mean, just keep him at the Alpha site, especially if they just intend to ship him off there when he's no longer being cooperative.

It's likely that Beckett needed the equipment in Atlantis. When Mike became uncooperative, he was still human, and therefore didn't need extensive equipment to keep him that way. A few injections will do fine, and the Alpha Site can handle that.

Besides, as you go on to say later, the Alpha Site is unsecure. It's much harder to catch a Wraith than a Human that was a Wraith.

Second, ok, so they brought him to Atlantis, but with his memory wiped, did they really need to tell him it was Atlantis, especially when they weren't sure they could trust him?

Does it really matter? Mike will know he's in some super advanced city. He may not know that it's Atlantis, but if the story progressed the way it did, he didn't need to know. Eventually, when he gets back to the Hive, the other Wraith will realize what he had saw, and will arrive at the same conclusion as if he just told them himself.

And sure, yeah, let's just invite the 'wraith-turned-human' to live with us in our city, like we're all just one big happy family.

Well, one of their goals is to see whether a Wraith, with all its "wraith-y" parts removed, can survive as a normal person in human society.

Unfortunately, he couldn't. But they didn't know that.

Third, once Michael knew he was a wraith and became uncooperative, why transport him to the alpha site. It's less secure, and the stargate is way more accessible in the event he gets free.

Yes, but if he got out on Atlantis, he can kill a lot more people.

I think they should have just kept him caged up, and waited to see what happened. I mean, if they don't want to kill him while he's a human, just wait until he turns wraith, then do it, since morals/ethics seemed to be thrown out the window slightly anyway.

Well, I doubt the ethics thing will be that easy if they knew that he was once a human and interacted with them just like any other guy. None of the other Wraith did that.

Oh, and welcome to the forum!

[Ouroboros]

Having said that,

Spoiler:

Michael and his Queen want to drug to use it on their fellow Wraith, to mutilate them and feed on them.

. How moral are the Wraith now?

Wow this whole virus scenario just keeps getting stupider and stupider.

Spoiler:

Why would it be so important for them to turn their enemies into humans when we already know Wraith can eat other Wraith from "defiant one" and get pretty pumped up when they do it to. This had better come with a good explanation.

[Cynicat]

Pretty much everything regarding good idea/bad idea and the morality issues of this episode has been covered, so I just thought I'd toss in a few specific comments.

I like the choice to view the main characters as though through Michael's eyes for the most part - when around him they came across as elusive (especially Sheppard), suspicious, and slightly sinister. Barely recognisable as the characters we've gotten to know over the last two seasons. Indicative of how much circumstances have changed, and of the kind of choices the Atlanteans are being forced to make in order to survive.
Even the lighting in their scenes with him reflected this - the cold filters, strong highlights, and faces kept in half-shadow all working to heighten the tension and increase the sense of malice. The use of spotlighting was also very effective, especially in the opening shot of Michael in the infirmary; as was the shaft lighting through the blinds in Heightmyer's office after he discovers the truth. Mad props to DOP Micheal C. Blundell.


General stuff:

Altantis in the mist - stunning.

ex-Blade: Trinity set - getting a great workout, looking good.

Michael's version of the jerky-jerky dance - unique.

Ronon in general - badass.

Carson struggling with morality - *hugs him*

Aussies in Atlantis - Oi! Oi! Oi!

[Amaunator]

Wow this whole virus scenario just keeps getting stupider and stupider.

Spoiler:

Why would it be so important for them to turn their enemies into humans when we already know Wraith can eat other Wraith from "defiant one" and get pretty pumped up when they do it to. This had better come with a good explanation.

Spoiler (Michael, Allies):

Spoiler:

Humans are weaker and in a one-on-one are unable to resist a Wraith. And we humans are crunchy and taste good with ketchup. There may also be consequences to Wraith cannibalism in an analogous way that human cannibalism is unhealthy (prion diseases). Imagine a group of frail humans with total amnesia on a Hive ship. They'd be sitting ducks.

[bitnine]

You know, if this was a major project that they were planning for some time, it makes me wonder why they didn't grab up some Re'ol memory agent.