The Long Goodbye (216)

[Dorka]

What bugs me? - Are men and women allowed to rest in the same room in the infirmary? Where are the curtains?

The kiss was interesting though. It lacked the tongues but it was nice.

Originally they wrote in the script, that Sheppard is entering the room...so he was supposed to be healed already I don't know why they changed it, but they still had to have both in one room

[Arlessiar]

Originally they wrote in the script, that Sheppard is entering the room...

How do you know that?


Oh, and why did Thalan 'die' earlier than Phoebus, who was much longer in Weir?

Bye, A.

[prion]

Here's another question, that, yes is nitpicky, but....still....

If Alien!Wier had access to all of her memories she would know what a kick ass-fighter Shep is, right? And know that he is very in shape and military trained, right? So why the hell would she decide to put her worst enemy in that kind of weapon if she wanted to kill him? Wouldn't it have been better to put him in, say, Beckett? No offense to the Doc, but he's nowhere near as fit as fit as Shep and knows very little about the layout of the city. It would have put him at a *huge* disadvantage to her, and from what we saw she's not exactly all noble or anything. It's not like she had tons of morals about making it a fair fight.

And it would have been cool seeing Beckett in commando mode.

I think Phebus chose Shep to house Thelan because he would be the best adversary. If she just wanted Thelan dead, she could have had blow up the other coffin, etc. or never revive him. Phebus was basically mentally unhinged after all those years of fighting and wanted the hunt. It would be no challenge at all in Beckett or McKay, etc.

[prion]

How do you know that?


Oh, and why did Thalan 'die' earlier than Phoebus, who was much longer in Weir?

Bye, A.

It was said that originally, Thelan was in worse shape (aka less alive) than Phoebus, so I suspect the imprint wasn't as strong.

[Arlessiar]

It was said that originally, Thelan was in worse shape (aka less alive) than Phoebus, so I suspect the imprint wasn't as strong.

Oh yes, that could be a reason, didn't think of that.

Bye, A.

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

Well, TLG was better than TT, but, of course, that's not saying much, is it?

This was really Caldwell's ep, for all that Weir/TH got to step out of her usual role. It was nice to see an ep devoted to Caldwell coming back and gaining respect(wish Sam had gotten one of those....)

I didn't really care for the whole Mr&Mrs Smith plot and I just don't believe Ronan's actions with Shep. All along I was convinced that Ronan was using Shep's entity to capture both baddies.

The director tried to give a sense of drama with those CSI style fast zoom and freeze shots of the city, but it didn't work for me. I know I'm being really fussy, today, but that's what happens when I get spoiled with really intense chase-through-the-city scenes like we got in Storm/Eye.

Rodney continues to annoy me, but I did cheer when Caldwell reminded him that he had been against the melding from the start. I liked his closing scene with Weir and Shep, too. He's a good, solid character; I'm glad they didn't Bates him(send him away to recuperate and never return ).

If I were into fic writing I'd rewatch this ep for Caldwell's character, but since I'm not, I don't think I'll be rewatching this one often, either.

[Micronaut]

...I'm just going to highlight one particular scene as a perfect example of exactly the phenomenon I think is holding Atlantis back, potentialy more than anything else.

That scene is the Teyla has to kill Shep scene and more importantly the cheap way in which it was resolved.... Here's betting the implications of the Teyla with a gun on Shep scene will just be ignored completely for both characters come next week...

I wanted to see Teyla not be able to do it instead of getting bailed out by the deus ex machina again.... Obviously you can't shoot Shep but having Telyla falter like that over that situation would open up a lot for both of the characters. Nope, we got the cheapo "safe" ending without any real consequences instead, hurray. You could still pull good consequences from the cheapo ending like I mentioned above but they won't, you just watch. It was resolved that way specificaly so it wouldn't have to be followed up on, just like the Weir didn't really torture Kavannagh thing. It might get some lipservice, just like that did here, but that'll be it for the follow up.

This is what Atlantis needs to stop doing. They create situations where they've got potentially huge character moments just waiting to happen and then rather than just follow through naturally on what happens they bring in some stupid external thing to resolve it like McKay's mad 1337 haxor skillzz here to cheat their way out of the outcome so they get to reset everything at the end of the hour and don't have to deal with any of the character fall-out with anything more than a line or two about it trying to pass for continuity.

Is it really so bad that the characters be permitted to change and grow from their experiences? Do we really need to invoke acts of plot to try and prevent that from happening?

...I would love love looooooveeee to to see the writers develop stories that way. When I discussed it in another forum, however, I was told that the writers don't work together in a way that encourages continuity and that Atlantis isn't a "soap opera"....

Take Atlantis as it's been written lately and you could insert any old cast of characters. It wouldn't matter a hill of beans, because the plots barely utilize personalities or grow them or change them.

All excellent points! However, before I go on another rant, let's take a moment to go over the industry/market driven realities to the show... and perhaps discuss ways that these dictates can be reconciled with good writing...

First of all, the Stargate francise has survived for over ten seasons (SG1 + SGA) because of two reasons:

One, simple plots for easier translation to foreign markets; this allows for Stargate to be translated to Russian or any other language, or shown in any other non-American (i.e. US and Canada) market, with little effort and/or editing. More markets increases the viability of the show, which means more money, and if a product (and that is what SG1 and SGA are) makes money without too much effort, the people making the show will want to continue to make money, so they will also continue to make the show.

Two, episodic formula as opposed to continuous story structure so that shows can be viewed more or less independently, making the show more viable in syndication. Simply put, this means an episode can be dropped into a TV station's schedule without the hassle of requiring viewers to know something about previous episodes to really understand what is going on. For example, watch one episode of a "soap opera" series and it is unlikely you will have a 100% clear idea of what is going on. Watch an episode of Gilligan's Island, for example, and by the end of the theme song, you have all the info you need to enjoy the show without needing any back story. The Simpsons never change... arguably, that contributes to their success, but over the years, the show has gotten stale, and I find myself dreading repeats and new episodes... indeed, instead of watching Simpsons because it is familiar, I avoid it because it is always the same old thing.

SG1 and SGA work on the "familiarity" formula to some degree, and this too makes it easier to syndicate - advertisers (and let's not forget who ultimately pays the bills) can be assured of more viewers of a show that can be mindlessly entertaining (i.e. you're flipping the channels, you see an explosion, you stop and watch... if you get caught up in the action, you don't continue to flip - if you are required to know something about what happened last week, which you missed, you will likely keep channel surfing) than a show that requires thought and continuity.

However, there is one market/industry reality the producers seem to marginalize (especially ones of long running, successful shows, **cough** Star Trek **cough, cough**), and that is fan support. Fans talk about the show, fans drive after market sales, fans create support material, fans go to conventions, fans tell other fans... get the idea? And fans get non-fans to watch the show... non-fans who are the often the key demographic that advertisers are looking for... And fans are often the first ones to leave a show if it becomes disappointing... fans are the first ones to complain... and fans are the first ones to care when the quality drops... and fans are the first ones to tell non-fans to stop watching. Fans are the ecosystem of a show... if a series is in trouble or is dying, check the fans first - they will be the real indicator of where the problem lies.

SG1 and SGA has go on long enough that it has become an entity unto itself, a self-driven marketing monster... or so it thinks. By pandering to market sales and syndication, allowing continued "success" to drive the money, SG1/SGA has begun to forget that the fans are what have kept this show going. No, the hardcore fans may not be the biggest market segment, but we are the ones which intertwine and tie all other markets into a viable demographic, a base to which advertisers can hawk their wares... Case in point... after several years of trying to get a friend to watch Stargate, he finally broke down and allowed me to show him the pilot... He liked it... enough to watch my DVD set of season 1... then he watched season 2... and so on... and then, like the Grinch, he had a complete change of heart and is now a fan... and then something interesting happened. He started to tell others... others who I had also been trying to convince... and between the efforts of the two of us, we got more people into the show... So, from one "hardcore" fan, Stargate now has at least a dozen more "regular" fans, some of which have already gone out and bought their own DVD sets... and are starting to tell others, independant of me... That's how it works...

But...

I may not be so pushy in the future... I may not tell others to watch SGA if the quality continues to drop... hey, I don't want to look like an idiot: "watch this great show..." - someone watches - "wasn't that great?" "no, it sucked... you're an idiot with no taste"... I don't want that... no-one does. And that is where Stargate is heading.... all because the producers have forgetten about me! You! All the fans! We have been sacrificed to the gods of after market sales and syndicated ratings... gosh... I feel all warm and fuzzy, don't you? Makes me really want to go out and help promote the show...

So I am ranting a bit.... deal.

What can be done...? Can simple plots and little continuity be reconciled with good writing and character ramifications? The answer is yes... while shows like Lost and 24 may be difficult to syndicate, because the continuity and complex plots require a certain level of viewer dedication, I'm not suggesting that SGA and SG1 go all soap opera. I like the episodic structure for the most part - a complete story in 45 minutes, with a beginning, middle, and end (more or less). But I also like to see things happen. I cannot become invested in the characters if I know that next week, all will be exactly as it was... there is no fear for the characters saftey, physical or emotional... and there certainly is no growth.

A good example of character progression is Cordelia from Buffy/Angel... she starts off as the typical bimbo/b.itch, and by the end of her run, she is a great hero... yet, she still managed to maintain some of her character's origins, more than enough for a casual viewer to recognize her, even though years may have passed. Teal'c has also gone though some great changes, but even though he has hair, watches hockey, and can even crack a joke once in a while, he's still a hard-ass... But, I doubt that the characters of SGA will go through an interesting arc as good as Cordelia's or his... and that lessens my interest, and ultimately, my support... and for that, I blame the producers.

In the end, the producers need to balance the demands of the market (yes, it is show business... deal with it) and the demands of the fans. I am a consumer, I see advertising (and once in a great while, I will respond enough to an ad to try something), and since I am part of the demographic that advertisers want, I pay the producer's salery... and that makes me their boss. And I say - we say - write better stories! Give us more drama with the action! Give us characters who will live on in popular culture long after the show... people still think of Richard Dean Anderson as McGyver.... ever wonder why? With better writing, perhaps people will refer to the task of miraculously fixing something in rapid order as "pulling a McKay" instead of "pulling a Scotty"... if you read that and knew the reference, then you just felt the power of good writing...

Okay... rant over... to the producers and writers... WE NEED BETTER SCRIPTS AND CHARACTERS! BETTER DIALOGUE! MORE EMOTION AND MORE HEART! GIVE US A REASON TO TUNE IN NEXT WEEK! GIVE US A REASON TO BUY THE DVDS OR TELL OUR FRIENDS ABOUT THE SHOW!

DO IT... or else we'll eventually stop watching... and then you'll have to go out and get real jobs...

[Wolf Eire]

Actually, Joe did exactly what he was supposed to do and he did it fabulously. Other than that time she was tricking them in the beginning. Weir was always PHOEBUS. Actually, she still was when she was tricking them. Point being everyone knew she was Phoebus and always in control.

I have to disagree with you Merlin. From the off in the first scene where he became Thalan I wasn't overly impressed. From there on in he even worse. That includes times when he was blatantly Thalan when he was talking to Phoebus and Dex. When you compare how distinctly different Higginson portrayed the second character I think you can see how Flanigan's effort by comparison was not all it could be.

[Merlin7]

I have to disagree with you Merlin. From the off in the first scene where he became Thalan I wasn't overly impressed. From there on in he even worse. That includes times when he was blatantly Thalan when he was talking to Phoebus and Dex. When you compare how distinctly different Higginson portrayed the second character I think you can see how Flanigan's effort by comparison was not all it could be.

And I have to disagree with you. I didn't see all that great a distinction from Torri. To each his own.

Phoebus and Thalan were as different as Weir and Shep. Thalan was more subtle. Phoebus out there. And they were played as such. Joe rocked.

[Dorka]

How do you know that?


Oh, and why did Thalan 'die' earlier than Phoebus, who was much longer in Weir?

Bye, A.

Ukumai, who also posted here a little...bought the script...it was the final one, but they always can make changes

[kirmit]

I thought it woz an okay episode, didnt rele keep me gripped but the city shots were kool. My compaint is the complete unoriginality of the writers tho, the whole sheppard teyla thing pfff it's bin done. We had Jack and carter we dont need the same situation with diff characters in another galaxy.

[Arlessiar]

Ukumai, who also posted here a little...bought the script...it was the final one, but they always can make changes

Cool! Did she post something from this script somewhere or do you know her so that you could read it?
And I'm curious: How did she manage to buy a script of an episode that just aired for the first time? Do they sell them already at auctions? I've seen a script of The Siege III on ebay but nothing newer than that.

Bye, A.

[AncientNET]

Simple Remark: Did you not find it odd that the pods had a BSG style?

[rexpop]

It was so out of character for Ronon to fall for the alien pretending to be Sheppard when Caldwell specifically told him and Teyla Sheppard and Weir were not to be trusted. I actually thought for a time that Ronon had a plan of his own to use Shep to catch Weir then take both of them out at once but no such luck.

Actually I interpreted the scene a little different. It showed development in Ronon's character in that he's moved along from the trust no-one loner (as seen in his first few episodes) to being more trusting of Sheppard. He let that trust override his instincts and he ended up getting shot as a result.

Now hopefully TPTB will touch on this in future episodes where Ronon is placed in similar situations. Does he make the same choice (and risk the same outcome) or does he fall back on the shoot first and ask questions later attitude ?.

[rexpop]

Okay... rant over... to the producers and writers... WE NEED BETTER SCRIPTS AND CHARACTERS! BETTER DIALOGUE! MORE EMOTION AND MORE HEART! GIVE US A REASON TO TUNE IN NEXT WEEK! GIVE US A REASON TO BUY THE DVDS OR TELL OUR FRIENDS ABOUT THE SHOW!

I would also add these two points:

Please tell stories that take advantage of the unique universe that Stargate: Atlantis brings to the table. One of the faults with this episode is that its so cookie cutter that you could easily tell the same story on SG-1. Substitute Lam for Weir, Mitchell for Sheppard, Teal'c for Ronan, Landry for Caldwell, Carter for McKay and the SGC for Atlantis and you could pretty much fill 43 minutes with the same script.

Please have a focus and direction for the series. Season 1 had this in spades (We are stuck and need to find a ZPM to get...). This season has been all over the map and its unclear where the show is heading. Direction gives the viewers a reason to tune in next week as they want to see where the story goes and what twists and turns the writers throw at them in getting there.