The Long Goodbye (216)

[Ouroboros]

You're absolutely right. And we keep getting these cop-out solutions and resolvements. Are the writers deliberately trying to avoid good drama, characterization, and development?

It honestly seems that way doesn't it. I mean I can list off several instances where the story would have turned out more interesting if it had just been allowed to play out naturally on its own. Instead though it's like every time some real drama starts to build some act of plot comes along, steals the climax and makes sure that the characters get an easy, safe and boring way out.

It's literally, as you mentioned, like they're putting in extra effort to make it less interesting, watering it down might be a good way to describe it. It's something I really fail to understand. Ok you can point out syndication concerns but that's not stopping BSG is it? Nope and BSG is kicking Atlantis' rump in the ratings just about every week now isn't it. Yep, and the critics are drooling all over the thing. None of that is happening because their writers are chickening out from opportunities for actual drama either. It's like Atlantis is afraid to push the envelope even a little bit where as BSG is all about pushing the envelope. And which one's leading the other by the nose despite the 10 years of name recognition to help the loser again... yep that's right.

Rob Cooper says, "We're doing what we did with SG-1. Just hanging back and not answering many big questions too fast."

SG-1 had a topless scene in the pilot episode. The idea of seeing something that edgey on Atlantis is well... yeah, about as likely as a Wraith Miss America. Atlantis is very much a "play it safe" kind of show that almost seems like it's done for kids/young teens at times. They don't get into exploring anything in anymore than a boring black/white superficial level, the characters are always saved from having to make moral compromises by stupid acts of plot, the stories tend to end with the moral "good guys" winning or at least being shown as decidedly "in the right". I mean they didn't even touch on the whole Wraith lifeforce/soul sucking connection that just slaps you right in the face with a big mit full of obvious the minute you hear what they eat. Nope not on Atlantis, might offend someone's ideas of the afterlife, best to just play it safe and boring like always and dodge this whole huge issue entirely.

Come on you mean to tell me that if a real person was facing potential Wraith sucking he wouldn't be worried about the possible afterlife implications of having his "lifeforce" stolen to be used as food for a space monster? Hell I would be wondering about it and I'm about as far from spiritual as a person can get!

Does that mean everything until they actually decide to give us some real content has to be filler? Does that means nothing of significance or overall plot-related interest can happen until then? In their world, I suppose the answer is "yes". Hopefully that attitude changes real quick.

Yeah and when the big moments do happen they typically get tainted by bogus resolutions like seige 3 and the hive. Both those multi parters could have represented massive dramatic turning points for the chracters and the show. Instead they both amounted to nothing but a big fat reset and a marginal reshuffling of some unimportant circumstances.

Imagine if the Wraith had taken the city in seige for example, instead of everyone getting bailed out by the plot again. Remember in DS9 when Dukat and the dominion got the station and then the good guys had to win it back? Would have made for a pretty suspensful situation here in Atlantis too huh. Yep so now the Wraith have the city and they're the ones searching for the 2 more ZPMs that they need to fire up the stardrive and use that puppy to stripmine the Earth and half the milkyway of all life.

Our heroic team has been displaced and cut off from Earth who, after a nasty Wraith attack on the SGC through the atlantis gate has given the team up for dead and locked out the Atlantis address. Meanwhile an isolated SGA now has to wander around a strange galaxy desperately seeking help and resources and a means to motivate the trampled people of Pegasus to stand up to their vicious alien overlords and help the team retake the city. The clock is ticking though and if they're to late Earth will pay the price for their failure.

Something like this would have given everyone something to do to. Teyla and Weir especially, the former for her knowledge of potential allies and the latter as the team's leader and diplomat. The dramatic moments trying to recruit all the help in the face of such hopless odds would have been never ending and the payoff when the finally did kick those green *******s out of the city again would have been incredible. They would really have earned it then. It really would have been their city and with all the friends in Pegasus they made they could combat the Wraith in a more honest genuine "blood sweat and tears" manner from then on as opposed to "hey guys I brought some more super tech from Urth and the Asgaurd! OMG look killer Beckett virus that makes the Wraith human with MaGiK the mega advanced ancients never discovered we're so uber go URTHDaedalusrailgunsnukesp90s HUUURRRRRR!!!!".

Oh well we get

Spoiler:

guys in renaisance fair constumes and OMG lesbian hivequeen secks!

instead so I guess we can't complain too much can we.

(It would have been great if they didn't use the "Kavanaugh passed out" thing.)

Yep, perfect example of the writers building up the drama then chickening right out before things got even the slightest bit edgey. I said some not to nice things aloud when I actually watched that happen the first time.

Ok wow, rant over.

I know asking for SGA to turn into something like BSG isn't going to happen and might not even be a very good idea given BSG is already out there. I'll just be happy if we can get rid of the constant plot cop-outs everytime something cool is about to happen. Lets just let it happen ok. Give McKay or Zelenka, or whoever it is manning the escape hatch next time, the week off and lets see what happens without it.

[Battousai the Manslayer]

Oh boy, I think it's time for me to go join the Weir appreciation thread now. HOTTT!!

[GatetheWay]

Speaking of the Teyla scene, I think they should of pulled a Speed and Teyla really did shoot Sheppard and while it looks fatal to people watching on camera it would of only been a flesh wound.

Think about it... Teyla cock the P-90 and Weir is yelling at her to do it or people die then Teyla pulls the trigger and Sheppard goes down. Everyone, including the audience, is in shock because they think Sheppard is dead. But Teyla really shot him in his Kevlar vest or in a non-fate, non-crippling place. I'm not sure if that's possible with a P-90 but hey suspension of disbelief. Anyway, soon after McKay over rides the lockdown and Weir rushes off to see Sheppard dead for herself. Weir starts to gloat, Sheppard shoots her with a stunner that Teyla left for him, then Lorne comes in and end the story.

[valaCB]

I thought Torri looked like she was having fun, probably because she actually had something to do for a change. Joe looked bored witless.

It's time they gave her some meat scene to do! She was so cool
and i felt it was like 'Mr. & Mrs. Smith' too..
Great epi.
More COOL Weir PLS!

[AlphaBlu]

The Long Goodbye was a good bottle ep.

Think of all the money they saved with that ep!

3 extra cast memebers (reoccuring technician, Lorne and Caldwell), and only three new FX shot (the Jumper and the two pods, and the two flashes from the pods), plus two people in 'old' makeup, one pod to put them in, and one shattering Lantian screen saver window.

I enjoyed it.

BYE

[PG15]

^Or they could've saved more money by just getting actual old people!

[rkl]

I really didn't like "The Long Goodbye" at all and am surprised a lot of people on this thread seem to be glossing over quite blatant plotholes such as:

* Mysterious life support capsule is brought on board and is duly opened without any attempt to scan it for weapons, alien devices, electronics etc. And they repeat the same mistake with capsule 2. They might have found the "flash memory" device and disabled it if they'd have bothered.

* The second someone is "taken over" by unknown forces - *especially* highly-ranked people - they are an immediate security risk and should be marched off to quarantine at gunpoint and guarded until a full medical analysis is performed. Even after such analysis confirms that the effect is temporary/reversible, they should remain in quarantine and questioned there until the effect is reversed.

* The cover story of a husband and wife crew that desperately needed to be together was utterly unbelievable - can't they make life capsules that support 2 people in that case?

* Failing to disable Sheppard's and especially Weir's security clearance once they'd been taken over is ridiculous - it's surely standard military protocol and for Caldwell to just "forget" this to further the storyline was pathetic. Yes, Rodney did moan about it, but it was still a weak plot device.

* No-one has installed halon gas extinguishers in offices for many years because of the obvious health and safety issues (trapped in a machine room with a fire? Instant death...). So how come they've installed such extinguishers on Atlantis? Ludicrous plot device number 37! Also surprising they didn't say anything about de-installing the halon stuff at any time - maybe it can be used in a future episode to double the ludicrosity level?

* Ronon believing that Sheppard was his normal self again just had me screaming at the screen, especially as you see the two of them creeping around with Sheppard *behind* Ronon and holding a gun!

* One minor point - how come there's convulsions when the imprint disappears, but only a mild irritation when it first imprints? A bit inconsistent that - my guess is that if there were convulsions on imprinting, logic would suggest it's a "bad" thing and they'd be less willing to let the second imprint take place. Yep, inconsistency deliberately in there to further the storyline again.

A swiss cheese disaster of an episode really - but apparently, the two major characters kissing and then running around shooting at each other is what classes for a "good" episode nowadays...

[xfkirsten]

* Mysterious life support capsule is brought on board and is duly opened without any attempt to scan it for weapons, alien devices, electronics etc. And they repeat the same mistake with capsule 2. They might have found the "flash memory" device and disabled it if they'd have bothered.

My guess is that they did. For all we know, that flash memory device may just appear to be a regular component of the pod - they may not have ever known the difference.

* The cover story of a husband and wife crew that desperately needed to be together was utterly unbelievable - can't they make life capsules that support 2 people in that case?

Maybe they actually can't. Maybe there was some sort of space restriction on their ship that prevented them from using a 2-person capsule. And I don't neccessarily see the need, either - somehow I doubt that their ship was designed with a husband and wife crew needing to be together in mind.

* One minor point - how come there's convulsions when the imprint disappears, but only a mild irritation when it first imprints? A bit inconsistent that - my guess is that if there were convulsions on imprinting, logic would suggest it's a "bad" thing and they'd be less willing to let the second imprint take place. Yep, inconsistency deliberately in there to further the storyline again.

Well, the consciousnesses are essentially dying at the end - I'd imagine that'd be pretty traumatic for a body. Not that having a consciousness entering the body wouldn't, but I'd think that a consciousness quickly imprinting someone would be considerably less traumatic than that same consciousness in its death throes.

[Linzi]

Speaking of the Teyla scene, I think they should of pulled a Speed and Teyla really did shoot Sheppard and while it looks fatal to people watching on camera it would of only been a flesh wound.

Think about it... Teyla coaks the P-90 and Weir is yelling at her to do it or people die then Teyla pulls the trigger and Sheppard goes down. Everyone, including the audience, is in shock because they think Sheppard is dead. But Teyla really shot him in his Kevlar vest or in a non-fate, non-crippling place. I'm not sure if that's possible with a P-90 but hey suspension of disbelief. Anyway, soon after McKay over rides the lockdown and Weir rushes off to see Sheppard dead for herself. Weir starts to gloat, Sheppard shoots her with a stunner that Teyla left for him, then Lorne comes in and end the story.

I think that's a much better scenario than what we got. It'd be great for dramatic tension too. I think P90's at close range are pretty fatal, but as you say, there could be a way round that. Great idea. It's seems a bit sad that so many people are coming up with great ideas that the writers don't see or just ignore.

[birdieey]

Ouroboros! (big hug)

It's been a while since I've read this board. Thanks for making me think I might have missed something.

[prion]

* Mysterious life support capsule is brought on board and is duly opened without any attempt to scan it for weapons, alien devices, electronics etc. And they repeat the same mistake with capsule 2. They might have found the "flash memory" device and disabled it if they'd have bothered.

The device may not have shown up as a 'flash memory' device but simply part of the machinery keeping the body alive (playing Devil's Advocate)

* The second someone is "taken over" by unknown forces - *especially* highly-ranked people - they are an immediate security risk and should be marched off to quarantine at gunpoint and guarded until a full medical analysis is performed. Even after such analysis confirms that the effect is temporary/reversible, they should remain in quarantine and questioned there until the effect is reversed.

Well, they at least unarmed Shep (albeit temporarily). But, it was the plot! Yes, I've heard much grumbling on it but eh, watching 'em try to kill each other was too much fun.

* The cover story of a husband and wife crew that desperately needed to be together was utterly unbelievable - can't they make life capsules that support 2 people in that case?

These were escape pods, from what we knew, and they're always built for one. In today's bicoastal marriages, they probably didn't think twice. After all, if they were married, worked on opposite ends of a big big ship... ?

* Failing to disable Sheppard's and especially Weir's security clearance once they'd been taken over is ridiculous - it's surely standard military protocol and for Caldwell to just "forget" this to further the storyline was pathetic. Yes, Rodney did moan about it, but it was still a weak plot device.

Plot device. Duly noted and moaned about

* No-one has installed halon gas extinguishers in offices for many years because of the obvious health and safety issues (trapped in a machine room with a fire? Instant death...). So how come they've installed such extinguishers on Atlantis? Ludicrous plot device number 37! Also surprising they didn't say anything about de-installing the halon stuff at any time - maybe it can be used in a future episode to double the ludicrosity level?

Well, hey, remember, this is the US government in charge, the same people who ban pesticides here in teh States but it's okay to sell 'em south of the border. Who let dangerous drugs get past the FDA, etc. etc. Massive stupidity never surprises me, alas...

* Ronon believing that Sheppard was his normal self again just had me screaming at the screen, especially as you see the two of them creeping around with Sheppard *behind* Ronon and holding a gun!

But a stunner, at least... Yes, plot device, but oh well...

* One minor point - how come there's convulsions when the imprint disappears, but only a mild irritation when it first imprints? A bit inconsistent that - my guess is that if there were convulsions on imprinting, logic would suggest it's a "bad" thing and they'd be less willing to let the second imprint take place. Yep, inconsistency deliberately in there to further the storyline again.

beats me. We'd need a neurologist to consult on that.

[Hudson]

Talking about TV at the start was funny

[prion]

Talking about TV at the start was funny

And Rodney lied! Just watches the occasional episode of Jeopardy my a**

Hello, he's a card-carrying Outer Limits watcher (hence "Home") and I'm sure he knows Star Trek (at least the classic version) through and through, as well as Twilight Zone...

I'm sorta surprised that Shep hasn't introduced Teyla or Ronon to movies yet, probably has, but on a bigger screen it may not be just a 'box'...

[AutumnDream]

And Rodney lied! Just watches the occasional episode of Jeopardy my a**

Hello, he's a card-carrying Outer Limits watcher (hence "Home") and I'm sure he knows Star Trek (at least the classic version) through and through, as well as Twilight Zone...

I'm sorta surprised that Shep hasn't introduced Teyla or Ronon to movies yet, probably has, but on a bigger screen it may not be just a 'box'...

I'd love to see what kind of for-pleasure video displays the ancients have laying around in Atlantis. Maybe if there was actually an episode in which they bothered to look around the city, we'd find out.

[BubblingOverWithIdeas]

It makes zero sense for Sheppard to recover sooner after having been taken over later.

Spoiler:

Lesbian HiveQueen sex? In what episode?