The Long Goodbye (216)

[AutumnDream]

For a "fun" episode/action show, I'd give it 7/10.

For a Season 2 Atlantis episode, 6/10.

Judging it based on what I'd expect from Season 1 Atlantis or BSG, 4/10. FAIL!

[Shep'sSocks]

For a "fun" episode/action show, I'd give it 7/10.

For a Season 2 Atlantis episode, 6/10.

Judging it based on what I'd expect from Season 1 Atlantis or BSG, 4/10. FAIL!

I think you're being a bit generous with that last one.

[helio9]

I think you're being a bit generous with that last one.

I think he was being generous with all of them, but then again, im the guy who wrote that post up there too.

[FireCat]

It was a good episode IMO, despite the glaring plot holes, like WHY these two were trying to "off" each other by killing innocents. Maybe a scene or two ended up cut because Skiffy needed to add an extra Cialis commercial.

I really like Weir, and Torri got the opportunity to work the character much more than usual. Weir needs more screen time as she could be much more than the "Mama Bear" figure she usually is.

Flanigan seemed to sort of "walk through" this one to me. I never felt he was possessed by anyone. Unfortunately, I've found Sheppard to be rather dull this whole season for some reason, with one or two exceptions, but he isn't my favorite anyway.

Good to see Lorne hasn't been "red-shirted", yet.

[maxbo]

This was a tough episode to rate because although I loved the individual performances, the plot-based writing was often cringe worthy. Are we seriously supposed to believe that the SGA team would encourage any SGA member to become possessed by an alien? The fact that they encouraged their military leader (and that he agreed) to be possessed just made them look even more brain damaged, if possible.

And, Ronon, a man who managed to survive as Wraith bait for years, suddenly becomes so trusting that he completely drops his guard? Come on, writers - you can do better than this! This was the epitome of plot-driven, lazy writing. In-character Ronon would have stunned Sheppard first and found out whether he was possessed later.

Among the parts that I loved is that it was great to see a different, killer Elizabeth and Torri nailed that role. Before the alien reveal, changes in her voice, facial movements and body telegraphed to the viewers that the alien was in control, however, those changes were so subtle that I didn't find it unbelievable that the team fell for the alien's ruse.

Sheppard's change was not as apparent, but I can overlook that because to do otherwise would make Ronon look even more naive. Throughout, I couldn't tell the difference between John and the alien and maybe that was done intentionally because it added to the tension of the last scenes with Teyla.

Teyla and Caldwell - two characters that I didn't even expect to be featured, based on the previews, just about stole the show for me. Of those who were present before John was possessed, Caldwell came out looking the best. Even when, due to plot-driven laziness, he was written to overlook obvious precautions against alien-Elizabeth and/or alien-John taking over the city, he still shined, IMO.

And, Teyla, from beginning to end, showed why she is the leader of her people. Despite her concern and affection for Elizabeth and John, she showed that she was willing to make the tough decisions, for the greater good. She also showed that she could keep a cool head under pressure. Those last scenes with her, John and Elizabeth were some of the best of the espisode.

Overall, I enjoyed this episode, but, unfortunately, it highlights what I believe will be the way I'll have to view SGA episodes in the future - as a series of individual scenes and performances, while trying to overlook the crater-sized plot holes. *sigh* What a waste.

[green_eyed_lady]

Ok rather than go over everything I liked and didn't like about this episode I'm just going to highlight one particular scene as a perfect example of exactly the phenomenon I think is holding Atlantis back, potentialy more than anything else.

That scene is the Teyla has to kill Shep scene and more importantly the cheap way in which it was resolved.

Here's betting the implications of the Teyla with a gun on Shep scene will just be ignored completely for both characters come next week. It's obvious that the way it was resolved was intended to set up just that.

I'm laying it on "I would have done the same thing in your place" "you did the right thing" or just no mentioning it at all. You know as opposed to doing something actually cool with such a massively significant event as one of your friends agreeing to kill you for the greater good. Yep something like that's not going to change a relationship at all is it.

I wanted to see Teyla not be able to do it instead of getting bailed out by the deus ex machina again.

Obviously you can't shoot Shep but having Telyla falter like that over that situation would open up a lot for both of the characters. Nope, we got the cheapo "safe" ending without any real consequences instead, hurray. You could still pull good consequences from the cheapo ending like I mentioned above but they won't, you just watch. It was resolved that way specificaly so it wouldn't have to be followed up on, just like the Weir didn't really torture Kavannagh thing. It might get some lipservice, just like that did here, but that'll be it for the follow up.

This is what Atlantis needs to stop doing. They create situations where they've got potentially huge character moments just waiting to happen and then rather than just follow through naturally on what happens they bring in some stupid external thing to resolve it like McKay's mad 1337 haxor skillzz here to cheat their way out of the outcome so they get to reset everything at the end of the hour and don't have to deal with any of the character fall-out with anything more than a line or two about it trying to pass for continuity.

I think it would have been pretty damn fascinating to watch Teyla come to realize in the coming episodes that she now cares so much about Shep that she can't kill him even to save 2/3 of the expedition. How would she deal with a thing like that? Would she look at it as an unacceptable weakness? Would she start to wonder if she's in love with him? Would she start to think about leaving the city to return to her people on the mainland because she thinks she's getting to weak or attached. Hell how bout a mix of all three. It would certainly be a lot more interesting than the Teyla coloured wallpaper we've been getting for the past season wouldn't it? Guess we'll never know though. Hey maybe they'll just chop her out next season because "we can't think of anything for her to do" despite stuff like this just slipping through the cracks. That was a whole season long character arc that just slipped past the goalie right there and I bet they didn't even notice it. Same thing happened with Ford at least once that I can think of.

Is it really so bad that the characters be permitted to change and grow from their experiences? Do we really need to invoke acts of plot to try and prevent that from happening?

I agree with you whole-heartedly!!!

[Shep'sSocks]

This was a tough episode to rate because although I loved the individual performances, the plot-based writing was often cringe worthy.

Plot driven episodes work when the plot is strong and the narrative complex and well-written. This was none of those. I don't mind rehashing Trek episodes (after all Trek did it all the time) but there needs to be a point where the writer or his fellow writers step back and say 'You do realise the audience is going to think this is illogical rubbish, don't you' and then fix the problems.

It's like in Lord of the Rings where the giant eagles come and get Frodo and Sam off Mount Doom. The logical question is that if the eagles can come get them, why didn't they get the eagles to take them there in the first place? If the only answer is that then there wouldn't have been three films (or books) then perhaps the writer shouldn't be in the business of writing.

[Callie]

Transcript is up:

http://www.brundle.free-online.co.uk...g_Goodbye.html

[Beal]

It's like in Lord of the Rings where the giant eagles come and get Frodo and Sam off Mount Doom. The logical question is that if the eagles can come get them, why didn't they get the eagles to take them there in the first place? If the only answer is that then there wouldn't have been three films (or books) then perhaps the writer shouldn't be in the business of writing.

Because if there hadn't been a battle going on the eagles would have just been shot down by a hailstorm of arrows :-p (WAAYY off topic, I know, but I can't resist)

[Shep'sSocks]

Yeah but eagles can fly high up above the arrows.

[caty]

Yeah but eagles can fly high up above the arrows.

Yeah, but the eagles would have been shot as soon as they went down to get Frodo and Sam...

Shep's Socks: I have to disagree with you here: I think stuff like that isn't that important in a film or a series. It doesn't all have to be perfectly logical, because if it were - where's the fun in that? I honestly believe that it'd just suceed in making the movie/show boring. Your possibilities would be very limited.
OT: Did you see 'King Kong'? The whole movie was ridiculously exaggerated, but I found myself well entertained, indeed. Even if certain faults, inconcistencies or exaggerations make you laugh, you're having fun watching it..

I think one shouldn't take everything so seriously, but just sit back, watch the show and let them entertain you....

[Linzi]

Well I really enjoyed this episode.
It was fun! I liked seeing Weir stomping around evilly with a P90!
I wouldn't wanted to have crossed her. It occured to me when watching this that she'd have been great as the Goa'uld in Critical Mass.
I felt Thalan wasn't as ruthless as Phoebus, he stunned rather than killing and I wonder if Sheppard somehow could reason with him when Weir couldn't have any control of Phoebus, just a thought.
I liked JF's and TH's performances and felt it was good they were different, with Flanigan's being more subtle. If his wasn't then Ronon wouldn't have been fooled by Thalan so readily.
I liked Caldwell too. I actually warmed to him here. At least Sheppard and Weir can have sympathy for his Goa'uld experience now!
Loved Rodney too. This is the kind of episode he excels in, trying desperately to pull off a miracle whilst whining and panicking! I loved it when he shot Sheppard and then Weir stunned Rodney!
I also liked Teyla, I really believe she would've shot Sheppard yet would have been heartbroken to do so. Knowing Sheppard as she seems to,she would know he would have understood her actions and rather himself be sacrificed than the lives of three quarters of the expedition. I thought that was well written and acted.
The Infirmary scene had me in stitches! Weir and Sheppard looked so uncomfortable, Sheppard bashing away at his palm pilot while Weir tried to hide under the covers! Great stuff!

[AutumnDream]

Ok rather than go over everything I liked and didn't like about this episode I'm just going to highlight one particular scene as a perfect example of exactly the phenomenon I think is holding Atlantis back, potentialy more than anything else.

That scene is the Teyla has to kill Shep scene and more importantly the cheap way in which it was resolved.

Here's betting the implications of the Teyla with a gun on Shep scene will just be ignored completely for both characters come next week. It's obvious that the way it was resolved was intended to set up just that.

I'm laying it on "I would have done the same thing in your place" "you did the right thing" or just no mentioning it at all. You know as opposed to doing something actually cool with such a massively significant event as one of your friends agreeing to kill you for the greater good. Yep something like that's not going to change a relationship at all is it.

I wanted to see Teyla not be able to do it instead of getting bailed out by the deus ex machina again.

Obviously you can't shoot Shep but having Telyla falter like that over that situation would open up a lot for both of the characters. Nope, we got the cheapo "safe" ending without any real consequences instead, hurray. You could still pull good consequences from the cheapo ending like I mentioned above but they won't, you just watch. It was resolved that way specificaly so it wouldn't have to be followed up on, just like the Weir didn't really torture Kavannagh thing. It might get some lipservice, just like that did here, but that'll be it for the follow up.

This is what Atlantis needs to stop doing. They create situations where they've got potentially huge character moments just waiting to happen and then rather than just follow through naturally on what happens they bring in some stupid external thing to resolve it like McKay's mad 1337 haxor skillzz here to cheat their way out of the outcome so they get to reset everything at the end of the hour and don't have to deal with any of the character fall-out with anything more than a line or two about it trying to pass for continuity.

I think it would have been pretty damn fascinating to watch Teyla come to realize in the coming episodes that she now cares so much about Shep that she can't kill him even to save 2/3 of the expedition. How would she deal with a thing like that? Would she look at it as an unacceptable weakness? Would she start to wonder if she's in love with him? Would she start to think about leaving the city to return to her people on the mainland because she thinks she's getting to weak or attached. Hell how bout a mix of all three. It would certainly be a lot more interesting than the Teyla coloured wallpaper we've been getting for the past season wouldn't it? Guess we'll never know though. Hey maybe they'll just chop her out next season because "we can't think of anything for her to do" despite stuff like this just slipping through the cracks. That was a whole season long character arc that just slipped past the goalie right there and I bet they didn't even notice it. Same thing happened with Ford at least once that I can think of.

Is it really so bad that the characters be permitted to change and grow from their experiences? Do we really need to invoke acts of plot to try and prevent that from happening?

You're absolutely right. And we keep getting these cop-out solutions and resolvements. Are the writers deliberately trying to avoid good drama, characterization, and development? Rob Cooper says, "We're doing what we did with SG-1. Just hanging back and not answering many big questions too fast."

Does that mean everything until they actually decide to give us some real content has to be filler? Does that means nothing of significance or overall plot-related interest can happen until then? In their world, I suppose the answer is "yes". Hopefully that attitude changes real quick.

(It would have been great if they didn't use the "Kavanaugh passed out" thing.)

[dark_faith]

didn't you find WEIR a bit out of character in the last scene ??

she is well known to worry a lot about her people, to care a lot about them. when she was Pheobus, she knocked down 4 guards, shot Ronon ... Weir says that she was screaming inside, that it was horrible BUT she's all excited about it ! she doesn't ask how is everybody doing, when Shep reminds her she shot Ronon, she says ' it wasn't me'. It just seems wrong, she's all smiling and happy after an experience that should have been a nightmare for her...
I wonder if Kindler ever watched the show or read other scripts.... all the decisions the characters make, the way they behave looks wrong IMO...

[Willow'sCat]

Sheppard's change was not as apparent, but I can overlook that because to do otherwise would make Ronon look even more naive. Throughout, I couldn't tell the difference between John and the alien and maybe that was done intentionally because it added to the tension of the last scenes with Teyla.

I hope it was intentional because there was no difference it might as well have been Sheppard's character. I was hoping to see some difference from John but Joe seemed to just go through the motions.

Teyla and Caldwell - two characters that I didn't even expect to be featured, based on the previews, just about stole the show for me.

Ditto, they were both great in this episode, it makes up for the rather miss-placed Teyla scenes in CM.