The Tower (215)

[alfirin_kirinki]

I also liked the bit at the end. But please don't turn John into a space-hoe. Please! It's not because I want him to be with someone I'd want him to, (which I don't) but like Rodney said "The captain kirk thing is so 1969"

I think that's true.

I always find those episodes much more bearable if I assume that he's actually the gayer than showtunes and so far in denial he's drowning and/or just trying to get what they need from the unsuspecting girl. John charms everyone to get what he wants, I just see it as an extension of that.

Chaya? They wanted her weapon.

Epiphany? Does that even count as canon?!

The Tower? I mean seriously, "I think some people might have the wrong idea about me" - no kidding, man. Now put on your tiara and let's go dancing.

[jannagalaxy]

I always find those episodes much more bearable if I assume that he's actually the gayer than showtunes and so far in denial he's drowning and/or just trying to get what they need from the unsuspecting girl. John charms everyone to get what he wants, I just see it as an extension of that.

Chaya? They wanted her weapon.

Epiphany? Does that even count as canon?!

The Tower? I mean seriously, "I think some people might have the wrong idea about me" - no kidding, man. Now put on your tiara and let's go dancing.

I like idea!

[ShadowMaat]

Wow. Who pissed in whose corn flakes today? Condescension and antagonism seem to be the keywords of the day.

As far as the whole A-plot vs B-plot debate, IMO, if there isn't going to be any B-plot, than the A-plot better be pretty damned strong and compelling in order to make up for it. In GUP, I didn't feel that I was learning anything new about Rodney, I had no real sense of danger, and I think the ep would have been more effective if it had been about a character we don't know well or if we'd at least concentrated more on the rescue efforts. It was an OK ep as was, but I don't think the A-plot was strong enough.

In The Tower it seemed more like a B-plot in an A-plot setting and the episode suffered horribly from it (again, IMO). The whole overlord vs. commoners storyline wasn't strong enough to support the setting, which is ANOTHER CITY LIKE ATLANTIS. But instead of concentrating on this amazing discovery, we're subjected to cliched court intrigues and Shep shagging himself silly on another random alien chick. Yeah, in the end we got the drones and jumpers, but the the ep could have been a hell of a lot more interesting if they'd concentrated on the city instead of the petty quibbles of high society. Or if they had at least played it so that the mini kingdom actually cared about the peasants and were truly desperate to preserve the bloodline so they could work the tech and play up the whole gene thing, which would still keep Shep, McKay, and Carson busy. But no, we get stuck with something trite and ridiculous instead and ignore the plethora of possibilities inherent in their surroundings.

My opinion, of course.

[ToasterOnFire]

*opts for the Fruit Loops instead*

Perhaps refute my arguments? That's generally the good place to start when you disagree with someone. Or you can take your route, which is to attack the way in which my argument was presented, without actually discussing the content of my views.

Like alfirin said, I was a bit put off because you directly mocked and insulted Arlessiar, stated that people who wanted more continuity were "whining", and trivializing some posters' desire for continuity by overplaying it as a desire to completely change the show, complete with...an Atlantis orchestra.

I'll restate - the people who have posted wanting some continuity don't want anything drastic. They don't want an hour spend talking about what happened in the last episode. They don't want huge blocks of time devoted to close-ups and emotional music while a character recovers from what happened to them. What they do appear to want is some indication, any indication, that what happens to the team affects them beyond that episode. A good chunk of Atlantis episodes have either someone dying or one or more cast members on the brink of death, but it all goes away when the reset button is pushed. Sure there are only 43 minutes in an episode, but how long does it take to squeeze in a line nodding to a previous episode? Like alfirin said, tiny changes, big result.

I was quite happy with Critical Mass because it did have lots of continuity. However, it was more character, plot, and location continuity (revisiting the CE planet, the return of Kav, Cadman, etc.) rather than "I/you almost died and I'm still not over it" continuity. That's what I'd like to see.

But perhaps I'm asking too much from the franchise. After all, the SG1 team had horrid things happen to them which were erased at the beginning of the next episode. Characters died or left and were never spoken of again, regardless of their importance. Janet who? Jonas wha? Since such a formula apprently worked on SG1, I see no reason for TPTB to start changing things in Atlantis. There are hints of some darker storylines later in the season, so let's see if they do anything with that.

I feel that the people who hate this episode are simply jealous of the young blonde and sheppard, and simply hate it because there was a possibility of them having sex.

Nah, I think most people had a problem with this episode because of the poor plotline, bad acting, and gaping plotholes. Shep's kirking was really more icing on the cake - they spent more time on that then on exploring this new Ancient city.

I mean, people (read, many women here) hate "Skantuary" (Calling someone a skank is just terrible, and something I won't ever do, that is a horrible and terribly mean thing to say about a person), and now they hate another episode with a young female.

I was also quite upset to see so many fans immediately condemn Chaya with such awful terms while ignoring or talking away Shep's actions. Such actions reek of a double standard, but I think things are different with this episode. Most posters in this thread haven't said nasty things about Mara and instead most of the anger is directed toward Shep and TPTB for trivializing his character.

I felt I needed to defend this episode somewhat.

Ack, stop that right now!

The Tower? I mean seriously, "I think some people might have the wrong idea about me" - no kidding, man. Now put on your tiara and let's go dancing.

HA!

[Tomcatter]

Crapfest.

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

Look up "Angkor Wat", it's quite facinating actually.

Yes, but that is in a jungle environment, not a temperate one where the Tower is.

[alfirin_kirinki]

Nah, I think most people had a problem with this episode because of the poor plotline, bad acting, and gaping plotholes. Shep's kirking was really more icing on the cake - they spent more time on that then on exploring this new Ancient city.

I think the Kirking is dire - and only made funny by Shep's Not-Very-Good-With-Girl-Schex-Stuff and Rodney's insane jealousy of just about anyone who comes within ten feet of Shep at any given time.

I'm a slasher, my primary ship is Stackhouse/Markham - I couldn't give a toss who Sheppard is sleeping with, and certainly not because I fancy Flanigan (Vukelic or bust, kids) - but the episodes with girls in are all appalling because a) the guys are just not so great with writing ladies, b) they're all gratuitously helpless/desperate for a man/an horrific stereotype, c) I'm not in it for the shipping and I like my slash subtextual, so can we please get back to the ******* SCI-FI? Thank you.

Ahem.

[Arlessiar]

I decided to answer to macktheknife's post here, although I was hesitating if this is the right place for this at first. But I want to clear up a few points I made in my post, so I guess I can answer to it here. I'll delete it if anyone thinks it isn't appropriate.

Heaven forfend, medieval AND late baroque. HOW DARE THEY! DAMN THOSE TPTB. They should be shot for such incompetence. Your nitpicking level just rose by +3

Can't we discuss this without this unnecessary irony? That's not really a way to start a decent discussion, you know.
I was merely stating that this wasn't a medieval European style nor any style at all. It was a mix of different epochs, and in my opinion it was a bad and silly looking mix. I know that they don't have the budget to make it look like a real historic film, and I don't want that. But what they did looked too unreal for me, too pseudo historic, too much like a cheap fake. My point is that this destroyed the illusion for me completely, I couldn't take it seriously and I thought that was really a pity. Well, and in my post I also wanted to make clear that this style was really in no way historic or medieval European. That's important to me.
And one word on nitpicking: You don't have to do it, you don't have to like it, but I will do it anyway. Because it can be fun and because I prefer to discuss a show I love in a very detailed way. I know some people only watch this for pure entertainment. That's ok for them, but not enough for me most of the time. I really, really love SGA and enjoy it to talk about it. I watch it because I think that it's better than any other series for me. But it's not perfect.

Let's turn Atlantis into Alias, or Bablyon 5, where if you have'nt seen the last 25 episodes, you have no idea what the hell is going on. Let's make old Dr Who style 6 episode story arcs, and have 4 stories per season.

Sorry, have never seen any of these shows apart from the first two season of B5. And if you read my post more carefully you would have seen that I wrote that I don't need to have endless story arcs or two-parters en masse. I never wanted long stories in which the only plot is that someone deals with the oh so unbearable pain and sorrow. I would just like a little more continuity. That's something completely different and not too much to ask I think.
(Btw, I was a great fan of the story arcs in Star Trek DS9, that was done in a very good and convincing way. If they were able to do something like that on SGA I wouldn't object)

I guess you conviently forgot about Critical Mass. I'm sure that had quite a bit of "call back" to earlier episode. But why think about what has actually happened when you can just whinge about it, and ignore that what you are whinging about already happened.

Sorry, no nitpicking here, just language problems: Do you mean 'conveniently'? I can't find the other word in my dictionary, so I guess you mean that.
I didn't conveniently forget anything. I just didn't analyse every SGA episode to the smallest detail before I wrote my post. Of course there are moments in which some things are addressed again. But the general impression is of another sort, namely that there isn't much so continuity. Yes, I know that Rodney shortly refers to Chaya in the next episode after 'Sanctuary'. And why do I remember that? Because it stands out as it was one of the very, very few moments in which something from an older episodes was referred to again at all. It doesn't happen very often, and it nearly doesn't happen at all when it comes to events with an emotional impact on the characters. And that grew worse in season 2, where even more things happened that must have had an influence on the people on Atlantis. I don't want "let's visit the psychiatrist" episodes or "Let's cry together" episodes or depressions or suicide or whatever. I just want a little more emotional continuity so that the characters stay believable. And that's all I said.

I guess, bringing back Kavanagh, Cadman and that old athosian woman, that's not enough for you.

I was happy that they brought back a few characters (personally I don't like Cadman so much), but you missed my point, I never said that I was missing characters! I just said that I hate character plot holes like Bates. If they brought him back I'd be happy. If they won't I can live with that too, but then they should say why. I mean, he was in so many episodes in S1 that, no matter if one likes the character or not, many people wondered what happened to him after he was injured. And it was never addressed again. Kavanagh was never really missing because there was no reason to suspect that he wasn't in the background somewhere. He was just not on-screen, and I liked that they brought him back now. And even with a little backstory!

Let's bring some musical instruments on the next dedalues trip. Perhaps some violin players to following everyone around and express how they are sad all the time. Oh wait. They are professionals on a expedition they knew people could and probably would die on. People are sad, moved on and did their job. Oh wait, did you watch letters from pegasus? I'm pretty sure someone acknoledge the deaths of the various people.

Aren't you a little exaggerating now? See everything I said above for an answer: I don't want whole episodes dealing with the emotional aftermath of an event. I want short references. Only sometimes, when an event was big enough to leave an impact, to give this whole show the feeling that there is some sort of development and connection. I know they said something about some of the people who died in LFP. I liked it. But that's not all. I mentioned Bates and Grodin as an example for the fact that there are many events that left people in shock. Another example: Rodney. Alone in S2 he saw Peter, Lindstrom, Griffin, and this guy from Trinity die. He nearly lost his friend Sheppard a few times. He nearly died a few times himself. And nothing of this is worth to be mentioned again in any form, no matter how short?


And finally something about your post itself:
You write in your edit that you just took my post as an example so that you can refer to more general points of criticism many people seem to have. Well, discussions are why we are here, but why do you feel the need to address me personally so often then? You accuse me that I ignore things willingly and tell me in a despising tone that I would be 'whinging' in my post. Well, I'd say that was pretty personal and rude.
To your information: I was merely stating my opinion. Maybe I was a little more outspoken this time, sorry if this offended you. You don't have to agree with the points I make, but you should try to understand and discuss them in a civilised way. Everyone has different opinions. I accept that you might be fed up because so many people complain about the same things at the moment. But then address it in general please. I don't want to be the person you use to express your resentment. And please try to get my point before you post, because you missed it.

Then again, maybe you were really just tired.

Merry Christmas.
Bye, A.

[PG15]

Yes, but that is in a jungle environment, not a temperate one where the Tower is.

For 10000 years?

[Kazper]

OK then... I'm going to state some quick points and opinions about the episode, the posts about it, and the series - then revisit them in detail:

Quick Points:

1) Way too many people took this (and other) episodes way too seriously.
2) Way too many people expect something different than SG
3) Way too many people get their knickers in a twist (bad pun intended) over The "Kirking".

4) The episode was (intentionally) silly, but fell short of being "fun" silly
5) The episode had barely any "plot", but this is not neccessarily a mistake
6) The episode had almost no continuity

7) The series (SGA and SG-1) have long established not just stand-alone eps, but funny/silly/crazy eps every now and then.
8) The series has - for better or worse - chosen not to go into details about many things.
9) The series is an ensemble series albeit with some characters standing stronger than others.

Detailed Opinion:

1) I get upset when I see people talking bad about writers, directors or any of TPTB because of one or several episodes below par, when other episodes are excellent and shows beyond doubt that AGA is well and alive. There is not a single TV show in existance that has not had a balanced mix of good, average and bad episodes, and even for the best shows this ratio is not greatly pushed to one side or the other. I can name many horrible, horrible episodes from every major TV series - even the most popular like X-Files, Simpsons, etc. Allow the weaker links to wash over you, and enjoy the good parts. Now if a show stop having any good episodes then it's time to call it quits.

2) This isn't BSG. Nor is it Bab5 - or Alias. Or (heaven forbid) 24. Different series have different amounts of continuity, and SG isn't all that high on the continuity scale. This should be no surprise to any fan or longtime viewer. So stop complaining about it and if continuity is a dealbreaker for you watch other shows.

3) SG is filled with references to other SciFi and popular culture, and to me this is just another such reference. I laugh at those scenes - partly because Joe acts them really funny, partly because I laugh at the reference and partly because they are mostly intended as lighthearted material. So what if Sheppard is a Casanova? I like my heroes flawed. Makes them more believable and this is a flaw that in no way detracts from Sheppard's heroic sides - bravery, intelligence, intuition, etc. It's just human. I honestly can't say what I would have done if Mara had stepped into my room and offered herself in that way - haven't had anything even remotely similar to that ever happen to me But I do not think Sheppard's weakness is unbelievable - I'm willing to bet a lot of people (both men and women) would go along with such a clear invitation and willingness. By the time she mentions his genes his blood can already be pumping so hot there's no going back. No matter what happened or didn't happen though, the scene was IMHO not supposed to be so deeply analysed.

4) Yes the episode was weak - very weak. It tried to do the "I'm making fun of myself and being so silly that it's fun", and it failed miserably. Too bad. There were still fun scenes in there, and in the end it was 40 minutes spent as entertained as I'd have been watching Letterman, reading a comic or any number of other ways I could have spent those 40 minutes. I can either be upset and angry that it wans't better or I can just take the entertainment for what it was. It's the old "is the glass half full or half empty" situation.

5) As I said above this episode was clearly designed to be lighthearted and fun - it failed, but this means that the lack of plot isn't a bad thing. The error was in badly executed comedy. Let's not accuse the show of more shortfalls than it actually had.

6) See previous point, as well as my point about SG not being a continuity heavy series. Continuity isn't expected in a silly stand-alone filler.

7) This one doesn't need much more detailing. It's nothing new on SGA or SG-1 to do episodes of a lighthearted and silly nature. In fact I've seen much worse - I truly cringed at the "Wormhole X-treme" SG-1 Ep.

8) People complain that we do not see scientists carry away databanks and equipment. That's how the series is designed. This is an action series - I've seen entire BSG episodes that had little to no action, but advanced a detail. I like that, but it's a different show, and I also like the much more simplistic action of SG. I guess I'm one of those people that like the entire spectrum from the very simple action world of SG to the convoluted and slowmoving world of BSG. But know what you like and fit your viewing to it - don't try to change the series to what it's not and has never been. SG-1 has built up a lot of continuity and canon by now but that's because the show is on it's ninth season for crying out loud. No series can avoid building up a sizable amount of canon and continuity in that long a run, but compared to the just five seasons of Bab5 which had way more of both, this highlights that SG is an action series - not a detail series.

9) The important thing in this show is the team. I like character development as much as the next man here but in the end I do not expect to get to know 4-8 people intimately in less than two seasons, unless I want to spend half the episodes with little action and lots of character development. Again this is not the right show for that. Again BSG has terrific character development in much shorter time, but at a cost.

To sum up - I agree this episode was way below par, but much of the criticism it is getting is based on wrong assumptions of what this show offers.

[ShadowMaat]

So Atlantis is mindless, stupid fluff with no point and no substance and it should be treated as such?

No, that's not what you were saying, but people DO have different definitions of what's "fun and entertaining" and if ANY episode fails to meet those standards, they should feel free to express their displeasure.

TPTB are big boys and I think they can handle a little criticism. They've certainly BEEN handling it for the past nine years or so (and that's just on Stargate, nevermind all their other projects).

And while I'm willing to forgive a subpar ep here and there, when they show up in clusters, they tend to stand out a lot more.

Also, I didn't notice any "good parts" in this ep.

[BigBadBob]

how have people seen it already?

[PG15]

It airs early in Canada.

In fact, unless I'm mistaken, "The Long Goodbye" is airing on the 2nd of January.

[starfox]

I'd just like to make a quick post defending those of us who dislike the Kirking/Shep-whoring in this ep, and yet who don't give a rat's rear-end who Sheppard ultimately ends up sleeping with.

The problem with the whole Shep/Mara scene was how fast it was all thrown together. Yes, I get it, red-blooded male and all that, but there's something else a lot of you seem to be forgetting. Sheppard is a Lieutenant Colonel in the USAF, he commands a base, and in this episode he is off-world on a first contact mission, being propositioned by a woman he'd known for less than 24 hours. Come on, John, use your head...no, the other one. Yeah, the jury's still out on whether or not he slept with her, but the fact that he showed no signs of stopping up until the whole "Ruler?!?!" thing; that just makes him look bad. Also, I will usually be the first person to cry suspension of disbelief in regards to this show, but it strains even my brain to try and believe that a man in this position (militarily, not sexually) would be all, "Boobs...and kissing...aw, why not?"

I had no problems with the whole Teer thing in "Epiphany" because it was plausible. But if I'm supposed to believe that the military commander of Atlantis would fall that fast over a nice rack...well, I may just have to give up all hope for the males of our species.

[Willow'sCat]

I know it is a TV show that is my fave annoying response to a lot of what people say about SG but it is a show people invest a lot of time in (maybe too much time) and therefore they have a right, yes right to be concerned when they feel the show is treating them with contempt or presenting a character in a light that is um-becoming (don't hear that word much anymore) or plainly out of character.

Detailed Opinion:

1) I get upset when I see people talking bad about writers, directors or any of TPTB because of one or several episodes below par, when other episodes are excellent and shows beyond doubt that AGA is well and alive.

I don't think anyone here has over stepped the line and saying this is an awful episode or badly written is only criticism which is what this thread is for Discussion (critic) good/bad.

I have said when I think an episode is good/great/O.K/nothing to write home about but in this case it was soooo bad I had to say that too, this is not to say Joe or any of the other writers are bad full-stop at their jobs, it is to say that in this case, this episode was not one of the better ones and IMHO that is what we (fans) do best, give bouquets but never forget how to throw the briquettes.

So what if Sheppard is a Casanova? I like my heroes flawed. Makes them more believable and this is a flaw that in no way detracts from Sheppard's heroic sides - bravery, intelligence, intuition, etc. It's just human. I honestly can't say what I would have done if Mara had stepped into my room and offered herself in that way - haven't had anything even remotely similar to that ever happen to me But I do not think Sheppard's weakness is unbelievable - I'm willing to bet a lot of people (both men and women) would go along with such a clear invitation and willingness.

The main problem I have with this whole scenario is that it appears to me to be so out of character for Sheppard, not the Kirking but the giving into it so easily he never did this with any of the other women. I get that some men and women "can't control themselves" but he was

a) Still on duty
b) Seriously he was their prisoner, sure they had nice sheets and a big bed but he couldn't have just left.
c) Waaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy too old for her for it to even be funny IMO. (ageism card) Not to mention the plain fact the she was a "pawn" being played in more than two directions.
d) In so many ways inappropriate behaviour for the Military Leader while still officially on duty.

And if he is that intelligent "why do I never see these things coming".

By the time she mentions his genes his blood can already be pumping so hot there's no going back.

Assuming your serious EWW! That is where his "self control" comes in, he has it we see him use it in a military sense and he is not some horny teenager, well I didn't think he was.

To sum up - I agree this episode was way below par, but much of the criticism it is getting is based on wrong assumptions of what this show offers.

If my assumptions are wrong in wanting it to be fresh, a little dark and SciFi that makes me want to forget how bad SG-1 has become then guilty as charged.