The Tower (215)

[Callie]

Somehow I doubt anyone's remotely interested, but just in case, the first draft of the transcript is up:

http://www.brundle.free-online.co.uk/215_The_Tower.html

And put yourselves in my shoes: you only had to watch the episode once - I had to see it closely three times!!

Above and beyond the call of duty, methinks. *sniffles, and digs out her copy of "Duet" to make herself feel better*

[ShadowMaat]

Every episode can't be a follow-up of another one, it'll get boring really fast. I tell you, some people have to find out what the meaning of the word "one-off" and "stand-alone" means.

Nicely condescending, PG. Too bad for you that I didn't say EVERY ep needs to be contiguous or have follow up. But if the team discovers something monumental and it gets treated as a convenient prop and ignored for the rest of the show, well, excuse me but I happen to find stunts like that severely irritating.

Some of my favorite eps are one-offs, but if that was what this ep was intended to be, then they should have dropped an entire god damn Ancient city into the middle of it and treated it like an unimportant tinker toy.

[alfirin_kirinki]

Not a well-written episode at all - but Shep's, "Some people seem to have the wrong idea about me" line after being jumped by the blonde girl rather raised my eyebrow (just the one).

I also LOVED Ronon during the 'grace' scene in the village.

Villagers: [hold hands to say grace]
Teyla & Rodney: [oblige]
Ronon: ['Oh, hell no!' face; reluctantly takes Teyla's hand and raises a fist, awkwardly for Rodney to place his hand on.]
Rodney: [subliminal] Oh, please!
Ronon: [glare; subliminal] We will never speak of this, or I'll break your wookie.

[ShadowMaat]

I think this ep is tied with Skantuary as worst ep of the entire show.

What'd they do, bring back that writer and have him write under one of the more established PTB's names? Nah, too easy to blame this crap on some already-dumped one-timer. This is PURE PTB. That's probably the scariest thing about this ep.

[tfalls1]

I can't believe this episode didn't answer the most obvious question it presented. After a year of buildup to the mysterious "Lost City of the Ancients" in SG-1, more time dedicated to it in the Season 8 opener, its significance becoming even clearer and clearer with each progressive SG-1 and SG-A episode.....WHY THE HELL IS THERE A CITY IDENTICAL TO ATLANTIS ON SOME BACKWATER ROCK IN PEGASUS?

exactly!!!!!!! i can see some Ancient "complex" but an identical city to Atlantis???? Maybe the writers all assume Stargate Atlantis fans are just dumb? It is getting very insulting.

[macktheknife]

I wish it was medieval Europe! But what they had on display in the throne room looked like stuff from a very bad Xena episode! And while the setting was medieval the costumes were a mix of renaissance, medieval times and late baroque.

Heaven forfend, medieval AND late baroque. HOW DARE THEY! DAMN THOSE TPTB. They should be shot for such incompetence. Nitpicking level just rose by +3

I don't think that the wish for continuity implies that a stand-alone ep should be widened out to a two-parter only because there is so much to discuss. I know, TPTB want the audience to be able to understand an episode on its own, the people should not need to have seen all earlier eps to understand the new one. But a small sentence here and there about the events of another episode and how they affected the people, is that too much? Small indications that they all survived a dozen catastrophes already? That something changed?

Let's turn Atlantis into Alias, or Bablyon 5, where if you have'nt seen the last 25 episodes, you have no idea what the hell is going on. Let's make old Dr Who style 6 episode story arcs, and have 4 stories per season.

I guess you conviently forgot about Critical Mass. I'm sure that had quite a bit of "call back" to earlier episode. But why think about what has actually happened when you can just whinge about it, and ignore that what you are whinging about already happened. I guess, bringing back Kavanagh, Cadman and that old athosian woman, that's not enough for you.

Only as an example, why wasn't there a small comment from McKay about headaches or a question to him if he feels alright again after the events of GUP, or just a short comment about trust and abandonment issues? Why was it never mentioned that people were sad that Peter died? Why was Bates never mentioned again? Yes, we know from the writers that he recovers on earth, but that's not canon as long as it's not on the show!

Let's bring some musical instruments on the next dedalues trip. Perhaps some violin players to following everyone around and express how they are sad all the time. Oh wait. They are professionals on a expedition they knew people could and probably would die on. People are sad, moved on and did their job. Oh wait, did you watch letters from pegasus? I'm pretty sure someone acknoledge the deaths of the various people.

Same thing here: Of course it's not hard to believe, but I can imagine a lot of things, even things that very likely would never happen on the show. I can also imagine that all these things that I miss in the continuity department have been covered off-screen. But it's not the same. As long as it isn't shown or said on the show it isn't canon and hasn't happened. And that's why I still wish there was more continuity and detail sometimes.
Bye, A.

People have been complaining about previous episodes because they felt hte main story was being crushed by a B-Plot. Now they have stories with no B-Plot, you all start complaing and wanting more detail, and more stuff which is unrelated to the episode currently being watched, and want more stuff dealing with minor consequences from previous episodes.

You remember why they cut Sora being given back to the genii? Time. That is why things get cut. Maybe if Atlantis was a 2 hour spectacular, with the budget of 5x what it is now, you might get "detail". Until then, think about what you are asking for, and don't ignore it when you do.

EDIT - Sorry for picking you, I don't mean you yourself, your posts are generally what I've read throughout this thread.

[ToasterOnFire]

Wow, that post was so chock full of personal attacks, condescending remarks, and strawman arguments that I don't even know where to begin.

[eccscape]

Maybe if Atlantis was a 2 hour spectacular, with the budget of 5x what it is now, you might get "detail". Until then, think about what you are asking for, and don't ignore it when you do.

Actually, i'm not sure i want to see any more detail for this episode. No, i am sure. i just want to forget it happened really

[Wraith_Hunter]

People have been complaining about previous episodes because they felt hte main story was being crushed by a B-Plot. Now they have stories with no B-Plot, you all start complaing and wanting more detail, and more stuff which is unrelated to the episode currently being watched, and want more stuff dealing with minor consequences from previous episodes.

You remember why they cut Sora being given back to the genii? Time. That is why things get cut. Maybe if Atlantis was a 2 hour spectacular, with the budget of 5x what it is now, you might get "detail". Until then, think about what you are asking for, and don't ignore it when you do.

If you think this is an A-Plot story then it's well saying that you won't be getting S2 of Atlantis for another year. If you had watched all the eps closely, you see things you like & things you don't. Some have multiple stories going on in the same ep & at times that ends up with it all feeling a bit rushed as there isn't enough time to throw everything in.

However trying to justify this off on the fans being a bunch of moaners is another thing indeed. So they don't have the budget to do everything they would like. However this whole premise is about the lost city of the Ancients...ATLANTIS!! It's supposed to be unique, not a cheap pawn to have an alternate one out there lying exposed for anyone to get at. So using this to give them a few Drones & Jumpers to simply give them an easy way to fill in the next few upcoming eps is wrong, not to mention really, really stupid! An Ancient facility or other structure, then yes that will be fine. Copying Atlantis & shoving out a modelof the central spire. Then citing lack of budget as the explantion for the rest of it being missing, really shows you have no comprehension of what makes a good show.

This isn't minor details, this is a major revelation. Probably the biggest since 'Rising'. To make it worse, this will probably never be gone back into again. If it is, then it'll be to strip more parts from it, to give them another filler episode. If they didn't have the budget, then they should have just kept it as a single structure, the tower would have been fine. Not a sister city. This shows why the show will eventually fall on it's own sword. Have the same people doing it for all these years & their perspective starts to waiver a lot. What they should be doing is assigning different writers every year. This way the ones that aren't doing it, get time off from the show & can come back fressh & open minded. Since they will never do that, even when it's on it's last legs, then they could at least start accepting freelance scripts like they did in the early days of SG-1.

[macktheknife]

Wow, that post was so chock full of personal attacks, condescending remarks, and strawman arguments that I don't even know where to begin.

Perhaps refute my arguments? That's generally the good place to start when you disagree with someone. Or you can take your route, which is to attack the way in which my argument was presented, without actually discussing the content of my views.

I did have a big 2nd post Wraith_Hunter, but the server screwed up.

EDIT - Well, I guess I edited this into a big post.

Generally, it involved:

My post was not just directed at this episode specifically. Some people are talking about groups of episodes, or sometimes the season as a whole.

I agree that Atlantis mk2 was really not neccessary. Perhaps a "spire" outpost would have been better, and some sort of other power thing to drain the energy.

To me "A-Plot" simply means the "Main" plot of an episode. A plot in GUP was obviously McKay. B-Plot was perhaps his inner struggle against himself. A Plot in Critical Mass was the thing in the city. I use C-Plot for Critical Mass as well, as I thought the Teyla thing was just weak, and used too much time. Essnetially, I don't define "A Plot" by how good it is, just that it's the main plot, B\C plot can be if there are another or 2 more plots, or the quality of the 2nd plot. I feel that the people who hate this episode are simply jealous of the young blonde and sheppard, and simply hate it because there was a possibility of them having sex.

I mean, people (read, many women here) hate "Skantuary" (Calling someone a skank is just terrible, and something I won't ever do, that is a horrible and terribly mean thing to say about a person), and now they hate another episode with a young female. Maybe I'm reading too much into it though, I don't think that many hated "The Eye\Storm" with Sora, or "The Brotherhood", and "Ephipany" was hated by less people. Perhaps, Sora and Shep were not "together", in The Brother hood it was McKay, and Ephipany there was the whole time factor. I just don't know. I think I'll leave it here, leave the others to say their stuff, and simply read or not read it, leave them be.

[alfirin_kirinki]

Perhaps refute my arguments?

It was more about the tone you took. It seemed extremely rude, to me, and I don't think putting a little disclaimer at the end really covered the unnecessary harshness.

And ToasterOnFire said s/he didn't know where to begin because your post was so venomous and rather off-target. It's possible to say you disagree without throwing a tantrum.

Only as an example, why wasn't there a small comment from McKay about headaches or a question to him if he feels alright again after the events of GUP, or just a short comment about trust and abandonment issues? Why was it never mentioned that people were sad that Peter died? Why was Bates never mentioned again? Yes, we know from the writers that he recovers on earth, but that's not canon as long as it's not on the show!

You see - I agree with that 100%. These are characters we're supposed to 'know and love' and yet it's too much for them to throw in a tiny passing comment referencing past events? I don't think it should be. It can really add something just to include an acknowledgement of the personal continuity for the characters. Yes, we know John was bitten by a bug and they brought that back, and we know Kavanagh never got on with Weir - those are not the sort of references that are being over-looked. It's the subtle, everyday comments real people make to each other that are missing. One or two passing remarks during an episode wouldn't suck up much time at all - so that really shouldn't be the issue.

And I don't think it was particularly well thought-out the only reason we know what happened to Bates - a pretty damn significant character, last season - is because someone asked and TPTB answered it on here. All that would have taken was a tiny, "We'll ask Lorne to cover that, seeing as Sgt. Bates was shipped out," or words to that effect.

It's a tiny amount of effort in order to achieve a lot more integrity-wise.

As for the issue of a second Atlantis: it raises the question - what the hell were they doing, mass producing?! Did they have a fleet of these things? Why was there no information about this? Why have we heard no myths about other cities? And what on Earth will Daniel say when he hears that?!

I really would expect to see more on this issue (this season, if not next episode), instead of the Tower being an unfortunate plot-device and matching hole in order to simply replenish the city's stocks before the season finale.

I have to say, with the exception of one ro two decent episodes, I've been quite disappointed in this season. They let the show and the objectives of the expedition change too quickly, and we've lost so much of the human aspect demonstrated originally by some of the secondaries ("SPACESHIPS!", "I LAAAF IT!") fall by the wayside. And it's not being covered by the main cast, either. That's where the 'I miss Grodin/Bates is in the hospital/I am never getting in water past my ankles again!' comments would really bolster the show.

Tiny changes:big results.

[Domesticated Equine]

Heaven forfend, medieval AND late baroque. HOW DARE THEY! DAMN THOSE TPTB. They should be shot for such incompetence. Nitpicking level just rose by +3

That the costumes are from different eras was just a minor complaint. The main issue is that many people (myself included) found the costumes to be atrocious and made it harder to take the episode seriously.

Let's turn Atlantis into Alias, or Bablyon 5, where if you have'nt seen the last 25 episodes, you have no idea what the hell is going on. Let's make old Dr Who style 6 episode story arcs, and have 4 stories per season.

I personally would much prefer that. One of my pet peeves of the Stargate franchise is the serious lack of continuity especially when extremely traumatic experiences seem to have no effect whatsoever on the person in the next episode. However, this is beside the point as you were answering this post made by Arlessiar:

I don't think that the wish for continuity implies that a stand-alone ep should be widened out to a two-parter only because there is so much to discuss. I know, TPTB want the audience to be able to understand an episode on its own, the people should not need to have seen all earlier eps to understand the new one. But a small sentence here and there about the events of another episode and how they affected the people, is that too much? Small indications that they all survived a dozen catastrophes already? That something changed?

This seemed like a completely reasonable argument to me, but you had to blow things out of proportion and imply that adding a little continuity is the same as turning Atlantis into a whole different show.

I guess you conviently forgot about Critical Mass. I'm sure that had quite a bit of "call back" to earlier episode. But why think about what has actually happened when you can just whinge about it, and ignore that what you are whinging about already happened. I guess, bringing back Kavanagh, Cadman and that old athosian woman, that's not enough for you.

I liked some of the continuity in Critical Mass, but that seems to be more an exception than the rule.

[jannagalaxy]

Rodney Calling his young guide 'Baldrick', that gave me (and anyone who's seen Blackadder) a good laugh.

When??? I didn't see that? I'd crack up at that bit! Ilove Blackadder!

[macktheknife]

I have to say, with the exception of one ro two decent episodes, I've been quite disappointed in this season.

I will agree with you there. I feel S1 was much stronger. I feel SG1 is much stronger than Atlantis this year. I do feel 5 episodes were in the really good (Seige 3, Runner, Duet, Aurora, and GUP) bracket, and more than last season were "below average". I hope it does get better. I really should'nt argue with people at 5am. I felt I needed to defend this episode somewhat.

[jannagalaxy]

I thought it wasn't too much of a bad episode it could of been worse.

It did have it silly bits in it but there was several bits I did like.

Ronon smiled!!!! Heck! I didn't see that comming! Also when he stood up for that woman when the guard started on her.

Carson saying wee boy. I thought that was funny.

I also liked the bit at the end. But please don't turn John into a space-hoe. Please! It's not because I want him to be with someone I'd want him to, (which I don't) but like Rodney said "The captain kirk thing is so 1969"

I think that's true.