Critical Mass (213)

[GatetheWay]

Unless you count Ronon beating the crap out of Caldwell then Sheppard hitting him with a taser twice. That's technically torture.

[ShadowMaat]

Unless you count Ronon beating the crap out of Caldwell then Sheppard hitting him with a tazor twice. That's technically torture.

Yes, but except for that, everyone was treated wonderfully and treated to tea and cakes.

[Callie]

I didn't see any of the ceremonial stones, which would have been there if this scene took place on the mainland.

They were there. When Teyla started singing you could see some of the stones around the bedside. I don't recall seeing any earlier, when Teyla and Carson talked, but the stones were definitely there for the song itself.

Which leaves me to imagine the wonderful toe-to-toe argument between the Athosians and the Jumper pilots about whether a whole bunch of heavy stones were vital equipment to take with them during the evacuation of the mainland. ;-)

[Linear]

I have to say that I really enjoyed this episode. Teyla's singing was ok, although when it first started I had to wince. Watching the episode a second time it actually seemed more acceptable.

As to the discussion on Wier I think people are being to harsh. There was a lot of evidence pointing to Kavanaugh (sp?). Her choices were:
1. sit there and do nothing
or
2. Twist an arm to save the hundreds of people left in the city (hmm anyone notice that Teyla & Beckett would have been killed if the city exploded?), save her home, and possible defeat the wraith? (it has been alluded to that info in the ancient database might help against fighting the wraith).

We aren't talking about the rack or water torture here. No doubt Ronin is intimidating enough without any real damage. Which is probably why Kavanaugh fainted.

[entil2001]

This is a very odd episode for a number of reasons, and I’m not really sure what to make of it. I find it hard to believe that Caldwell’s character was always meant to have this kind of encounter or that the whole Trust debacle was meant to have an impact on “Atlantis”. Perhaps it was just the manner in which the crossover took place. There were a lot of things to like about the episode, especially in the final act, but there were also elements that left me wondering how quickly the script was cobbled together.

Let’s cover the bad things first. I’ve never liked the idea of the Trust, since it’s never been well-defined and it seems like a needless way to insert conspiracy into the series after the NID plot threads have been played out to death. Of course, now the Trust is a gateway for the Goa’uld plot to take control of Earth, presumably led by Baal and his many, many clones. That’s all an issue for inferior “SG-1” episodes, however, so I wasn’t particularly thrilled at the idea that the mess had spilled over into this series.

It has, however, and the implication is worse for the overall “Stargate Universe” than perhaps even the writers might suspect. If the Trust can infiltrate the SGC so completely that the commander of the Daedalus is infested with a symbiote without anyone noticing, that’s a serious breach of security. Essentially, the entire operation could be crippled with no possibility of a counter-offensive.

On the other hand, there’s a certain logic to what the Goa’uld were trying to accomplish. If the Wraith do take control of Atlantis, they have the power and the will to invade Earth and begin an incursion of the home turf. This is as big an issue for the human population as it is with the beleaguered Goa’uld. Though even they didn’t consider the more subtle and logical approach: use the Humans as the first line of defense, but then set things up so if Atlantis is breached, the gate will switch to an address in the part of space currently held by the Priors! Deal with both problems at once!

Now, the good. As much as Teyla’s “B” plot was pleasant, for lack of a better term, the music in the final act was quite effective. I could tell that she was actually singing (though it was, of course, dubbed in), and that helped a bit. I’m still not pleased by the fact that other chanting voices joined her, since none of the extras in the scene were singing, but that wasn’t the point. It was a well-orchestrated sequence.

Also, I loved the return of Lt. Cadman to the series. I mentioned back in my review for “Duet” that it was a shame how little she was on screen. It actually looks like she’ll be a recurring character, a possible bone of contention between McKay and Beckett, and I couldn’t be happier. Yay for hot redheads! And between her and Cavanaugh, that gave the whole “traitor” plot thread something to work with.

[prion]

We aren't talking about the rack or water torture here. No doubt Ronin is intimidating enough without any real damage. Which is probably why Kavanaugh fainted.

Most people would feel VERY nervous is Ronon walked into a room looking like that. Most people would probably start sweating, running around the room like a squirrel on the highway, or pass out. The idiots would go "yeah, sure, make me talk."

I can only fathom the kind of torture inflicted would be basic - twisting arms (literally). Not the horrific slow torture people with boards and rope. The city was going to be gone in 24 minutes.

However, although Weir approved the torture, she was not happy with having done so.

[derrickh]

Feeling bad about committing a crime doesn't exonerate you from punishment.

And there's no doubt that Ronan was going to do more than stare down Kavanaugh. He was brandishing his knife for a reason. Maybe cut off an ear, or slice the achilles tendon. It would have to cause enough pain to make someone talk quickly.

D

[bitnine]

Unless you count Ronon beating the crap out of Caldwell then Sheppard hitting him with a tazor twice. That's technically torture.

Both of those seemed fine. Ronon subdued Caldwell right after he stood up and made a physical threat (and though he probably would have gone on a bit, Shep stopped him). And then Shepard used the taser to briefly free the host from control. That second bit in particular, they weren't torturing anyone, just using a crude electroshock to allow Caldwell to speak.

[GatetheWay]

Feeling bad about committing a crime doesn't exonerate you from punishment.

And there's no doubt that Ronan was going to do more than stare down Kavanaugh. He was brandishing his knife for a reason. Maybe cut off an ear, or slice the achilles tendon. It would have to cause enough pain to make someone talk quickly.

D

Oh, please. Ronon didn't do anything like that to Caldwell and thats just blatent assumption on your part. It sounds like you think Ronon is a sadist who would like nothing better then to jump the gun and inflict as much pain as soon as possible to a fellow human. There is no evidence of this and self defence and fists fights with those who can defend themselves don't count..

For all we know Ronon might of done to Kavanaugh what the Genii did to Rodney when they wanted info in the Storm. Ronon may of started with threats then worked his way up to actual physical harm like twisting his arm or a cut. Kavanaugh was a whimp so there would be no need for Ronon to cause too much pain.

[GatetheWay]

Both of those seemed fine. Ronon subdued Caldwell right after he stood up and made a physical threat (and though he probably would have gone on a bit, Shep stopped him). And then Shepard used the taser to briefly free the host from control. That second bit in particular, they weren't torturing anyone, just using a crude electroshock to allow Caldwell to speak.

So you're saying that Ronon's beating of Caldwell was nothing more but a pre-emtive strike. That's a slippery slop.

[Fanwoman]

I really didn't like this episode.

There's a big difference between having to make tough decisions and being in direct conflict with your core values. Giving up on your core values because they're inconvenient does not make for a respectable character nor a strong leader, and torture only works effectively and quickly on cheezy TV spy shows. Weir should know better.

It's been argued that Weir's "no better than them" is inapplicable--though she was likely referring to the infighting, which is--but this has made her no better than Kolya.

Worse, Kavanagh was right. What evidence she did have was insubstantial; it was her personal feelings that colored her decision--a wrong decision in more ways than one.

It's not an issue that should be dealt with so lightly. There should be greater repercussions to this, not "Nothing happened to him, so it's okay," and the humorous distraction of, "Doesn't Zelenka look funny!"

It's either fun, light entertainment or it's not. I wish Atlantis would decide which it's going to be and stick with it. If it wants to be serious, it should deal with serious issues seriously.

[Robin Lionheart]

The screenwriters took on a serious issue, dramatizing the anti-torture-ban pundits' favorite "ticking time bomb" scenario, and resorted to a cop out weaker than anything I might have expected.

A braver series would have had followed through, had Ronon beat a false confession out of Dr. Kavanagh, had the crew waste precious minutes chasing down bad intel, and later have Weir have to defend her actions before a disciplinary committee.

If a viewer misunderstood the tasering of the Goa'uld, they could misread the moral of this episode as "torture works, but be sure you have the right guy". If Stargate had really done that, it would have joined 24 in the moral abyss of television dramas where torture is portrayed as justified and effective.

[Robin Lionheart]

Also, compare this to Baal's nearly-successful torturing of Jack O'Neill for information in Stargate SG-1 season 6 episode "Abyss".

[SamCarterONeill0905]

I would not have tortured anyone.

I would've conducted a competent investigation instead of focusing on someone because of negative personal feelings. I would've went to the people that Kavanough sent the coded messages to and found out what they said. I would've put a huge effort into cracking the code. I would've done everything I could to solve the problem. I would not have tortured anyone.

Being a leader isn't just about making hard choices. It's about making the right choices.

D

Sometimes, one will have to do something that they are not proud of doing. Weir did what she thought was best, and as others have pointed out, she did wait until the last 24 minutes before she authorized the "torture" of Kavanough. For all we know, she did try to find out who he sent the coded messages to and wasn't able to. At the time, almost all of the evidence pointed to Kavanough. I personally believe that Weir is an honorable woman and wouldn't be clouded by personal feelings. It's just, in her position, you sometimes have to make some very hard decisions and if that decision will help to save the lives of hundreds, then so be it.
C.

[RoMUS]

spoilers























Omg who would of thought caldwell is a gould......never seen that coming


Wonder who next daedalus commander will be