Epiphany (212)

[prion]

I'm surprised that nobody mentioned what Shep said in one scene with Teera when they were taking a walk through the fields. I'm not 100% that I got the lines right though..

Teera: I'm glad I finally got you out, you've been alone in your room for so long.
Shep: I am being depressed.

I mean, did he really say that? If he did, it surprises me, because he isn't the person to admit feelings like that and it didn't sound like he was joking, either.

Anyway, I loved the scene, it's so sweet to see that Shep misses home (Atlantis)..

The look during his first meditation... I just wanna hug him, he looks so sad!
BTW: I think this might have been a scene that was originally set after a bad memory of Earth/Afghanistan. IMHO, they did shoot that stuff, but TPTB cut it out eventually because of time issues..

I'm prett sure he said "It's called being depressed," and considering he just got pole-axed with the news that he's trapped there until he dies or ascended, yes, that would be depressing for him. Not to mention he'd just recovered from being injured from the beast, it could make him depress.

And he's got no real support. Sure lots of happy we're going to ascended people but not his true friends, whom he feels has abandoned him at this point, although he doesnt know why. Yeah, he could get depressed.

As for sleepign through meditation, yes, he looked bored adn asleep. Can't blame him!

[prion]

Random thoughts (and pardon me if some have them have already been brought up):

I don’t understand why Sheppard went thru the portal in the first place. Especially after McKay made that joke about the atmosphere. And although McKay took the blame for Sheppard going in later on, again, like in Trinity, I don’t think it’s entirely his fault. Where is the caution that Sheppard should be displaying? Again, like in Trinity, there’s no need to rush. Come back with a real MALP.

the plot called for it, and well, it seemed safe. i think there comes a point where they have to charge ahead otherwise they'd never get anyway and the plot called for it

McKay seemed extra snippy at Ronan in this part of episode. And that was mean of McKay to later call Ronan and Teyla, Conan and Xena. But not to their faces. I never noticed the similarity in those names before. I personally think those names are a compliment.

Mckay gets testy when under stress (remember "Siege III") I love the name he called them.

I know McKay was only going for an approximation but why did McKay count off the time instead of using that very big watch he wears on his wrist? Why didn’t Teyla use her watch when she needed to be more precise? She’s got to have one as part of the team. And come on, why isn’t McKay carrying a spare camera battery with him?

Drama, counting out loud is dramatic, and mckay had to make room for powerbars, not useless spare batteries

McKay is so frazzled he doesn’t think to write Sheppard a note. Not even after he thinks to write Sheppard a note.

Yup. well, second note would have meant nothing as Shep was gone but he was so worried he didn't think about it. Probably thikning about Shep bleeding to death or aging to retirement age.

Hey, when Sheppard leaves, why doesn’t he leave a note? He had plenty of rocks to use, but surely he must have had a pen and some paper on him with all those vest pockets.

Well, paper from the powerbar wrappers, but who knows on the pen? Eh, plot point. He did leave an arrow.


Why does Sheppard keep his beard when he was in the village. Just to be different?

Probably thought, why bother... figure he spent a few days in the cave hoping for rescue, wondering why his friends weren't rescuing him and then gets beaten up to hell and back, recovers, then told, oh hey, by the way, you're going to stay here the rest of your life! so, why bother. got depressed.

Is Elizabeth the only one who’s fluent in Ancient? Now that we have contact back Earth, can’t we get more linguists? I know Daniel is busy (and please, stay with SG1, please!) but there must be somebody comparable. It was nice to see her off planet, but it isn’t made clear why she’s the one that has to read the Ancient writing.

A reason for her to go offworld (fine by me) and heck, she may be very good at it. Why not?

As much as I like Beckett, was it really necessary for him to go? Yes, yes, I know, always send your best into danger.

No, not really, but why not

McKay actually admitted he can’t fly straight. But really, all he had to say was they needed a pilot because he was going to have to work with the equipment.

drama, and showing that McKay is rattled enough that he doesn't care about himself or what people think as he cares about rescuing sheppard.

Why was the Jumper flying so far away from the time dilation crater? Was McKay just being extra cautious to be outside its influence?

probably something about if you get too close and get sucked in you get torn apart...

Looks like the same tables were used to eat here as in the episode Sanctuary. Which would make them all purpose sanctuary tables.

Yeah, they reuse a lot of stuff. Think SG1 has eaten at that table too

How did Teyla sense that the beast was close? Just the lucky guess of a hunter? Or does her sensing ability extend to more than just the Wraith?

Could be her senses as a hunter. that's what i was figuring.

Looks like the team was walking thru the same field as in Duet. Which kind of looked like the same field as in Sanctuary. At least it looks like the same flowers as in Duet. I actually like that. When people complain that all the planets look alike, I think they should. Humans have a narrow range they can live in.

probably same field THey reuse a lot of stuff, just from different angles.

I liked the way the beast was portrayed. But, like Sheppard, I said “That’s it? That’s all it took?” when it disappeared. Why didn’t that girl foresee that?

I think the girl had foreseen it to a degree, but didn't let it slip. She could see up to a point, i think but not all the way, like htere were mental roadblocks and judging from the creation of the beast, there were.


Loved McKay’s line, “What’s with you and Ascended women?” And Sheppard’s shrug back. Must be an ATA gene thing.

Poor shep. ALl his girlfriends just go poof. Great line.

Yes, the math bugs me, too. If we say that the ratio is 1 to 240, then 1 hour equals 10 days. Six months is about 180 days, so it should have been about 18 hours and not “just a couple of hours” like Elizabeth says it was. But, are we using Earth days, Atlantis days, or Time Dilation planet days, which could be a faster rotation and have more days pass in less time?

Math isn't the writers' strength apparently...

I though this was nice staging: Sheppard asks, “Where the hell were you?” and the others line up to talk to him. The beast shows itself and while Sheppard is facing the right direction, everybody else has to turn around and look up. The coordination of all the actors was very good. Then Sheppard moves forward thru the line. Ronan follows, pulling out his sword out of the ground. Teyla and McKay also move forward, but Beckett and Weir stay put. I liked how Sheppard’s team all moved together to protect the others that don’t have much off world experience.

I really liked that scene, which also showed how frustrated Sheppard was at being, as far he knew, abandoned by his teammates on that planet. and yes, how Ronon just joined on the fight,w hcih fortunately they didn't have to do.

I think this episode has more logic holes than an episode normally does. I’m always willing to suspend belief for the sake of the show, if we learn something new, whether it be new tech or a new personal revelation for one of the characters. That didn't really happen here.

Haven't seen a single tv show youcouldn't punch holes through but yeah, the only personal revelation we really had was that sheppard had been scared of lighting as a kid but loves it now. I was hoping for more....

Hear that writers???

[AutumnDream]

I don't think he called them Conan and Xena because of a name similarity. I think it was because:

Ronan: Big strong tough guy, was pretty barbaric when they met him
Conan: Big strong tough barbarian.

Xena: Never seen the show, but she's supposed to be a "warrior princess", right?
Teyla: Is the leader of a group of people, thus is "princess-like" in a way, and she sure is one hell of a warrior.

I think it was that sort of connection, but Conan and Ronan are very similar names.

[KRiZ]

Yes, the math bugs me, too. If we say that the ratio is 1 to 240, then 1 hour equals 10 days. Six months is about 180 days, so it should have been about 18 hours and not “just a couple of hours” like Elizabeth says it was.

how about this for an explanation, maybe Elizabeth was trying to give john a stronger reason as to why they werent they sooner, it's called exagerrating, people do it all the time, not necessarily bad writing

[starfox]

Just finished watching this for the second time. I enjoyed it, there were some nice character moments and a bit of continuity from previous eps. Now, if we could fill in some plot holes and have an ending that's not quite as rushed or out of the blue, then we'd be good.

I also probably need to stop reading slash about 2 days before I watch a new ep, because I still had my slash glasses on for this, and it looked like Avard had a bit of a (by which I mean massive) crush on Shep. This is what fanfiction does to you, people.


Moments I enjoyed:

*Smart!Teyla. She made Rodney speechless with the math, and that made me happy, especially as I've been wishing for more Teyla-Rodney interaction.
And she called him Rodney, not Dr. McKay!

*TakeCharge!Rodney pretty much rocks my socks.

*Rodney admitting that the problem was his fault and giving Zelenka credit for the probe? Yayness.

*Sheppard just being ridiculously hot throughout the ep.

*Weir off-world. She's such a geek, truly. Her excitement over the Ancient writing (briefly) overriding her concern. Such a geek moment, and it showed the enthusiastic Weir that sometimes gets lost.

*Hedda. She was adorable without being annoying.

*Sheppard's frustration with the whole situation. Very realistic, very human.


Things that bugged me:

*How is Hedda the only kid, and how are all the other villagers reasonably attractive individuals in their 20s-30s? Was control of physical aging one of the first powers these people learned?

*Was Sheppard just being a bum, or did he actually adopt a community position?

And others probably to come.

[buuzero]

I'm sorry, but this episode just didn't do it for me. Like some others have already said, it was just disappointing. Not much character development... not much plot development. And yeah, it is getting annoying how whenever they meet ancients, they are gone by the end of the episode. I actually fell asleep during this episode after he got to the village... I won't entirely blame the show however, I was watching at like 2:30am. It was good up until he went to the Ancient village, and the beast was super lame. The Conan/Xena line was funny though! All in all, I'd give the episode a 2 out of 5. From other comments in this thread, it sounds like the episode would have been better if they had not dropped some of Flannigan's original ideas (with Sheppard's backstory).

I get the feeling that they weren't joking when the team behind SG-1 made reference to correcting mistakes they made with SG-1 through SGA. How many more episodes are going to be blatant, I mean blatant ripp-offs of SG-1 story lines! I get there are only so many ways to tell a story and that after 9 1/2 seasons of SG-1, repeating is going to happen but this is getting ridiculous and a little bit sad.

Hopefully just this one and Intruder.
>.>
<.<
>.>

Watch out, because Grace Under Pressure is coming soon . It might be good though, and I'm sure it won't be as awful as the original Grace was.

Sorry, but I just had to...


[click on thumbnail for full-size image. 34kb]

For me, this is the best thing to come out of the episode... the discussion that lead to this. Hilariously awesome!

[Eoin]

I dont know if this has been mentioned in this thread already (too many posts to be looking through)

But anyway we now have proof that you dont need to die to ascend

Great ep

[AutumnDream]

All in all, I'd give the episode a 2 out of 5. From other comments in this thread, it sounds like the episode would have been better if they had not dropped some of Flannigan's original ideas (with Sheppard's backstory).

Watch out, because Grace Under Pressure is coming soon . It might be good though, and I'm sure it won't be as awful as the original Grace was.


For me, this is the best thing to come out of the episode... the discussion that lead to this. Hilariously awesome!

Yeah, it sounds like it Joe's original idea was better than what they maimed and moulded into this episode.

Grace Under Pressure can't be bad. It stars McKay. It's impossible for anything starring McKay to be bad. It would break the universe if he were not enjoyable to watch.

Yes, I hope every Atlantis fan on the internet sees that picture.

[Shep'sSocks]

Yeah, it sounds like it Joe's original idea was better than what they maimed and moulded into this episode.

You mean, kind of like the way that bodies are shoved into body bags?

Grace Under Pressure can't be bad. It stars McKay. It's impossible for anything starring McKay to be bad. It would break the universe if he were not enjoyable to watch.

Yes, not even the presence of Carter could wreck it...

[Callie]

Draft transcript is up:

http://www.brundle.free-online.co.uk/212_Epiphany.html

[Jeffer]

Good ep but you could tell that the creature was the final part to ascension is was pretty obvious

[Yeade]

I've finally watched the episode! Yay! And you guys have run away with the thread! So much to catch up on! <sobs>

I was impressed by how certain little details actually got acknowledged. Things like "damn I should have given him a note" and "this field must generate it's own seperate day/night cycle and everything". Just two little bits said in passing to show us that the story was aware of the issues in question.

Yes, I agree. I've been reading reviews on LJ, and many of the running commentaries include people thinking "why didn't McKay send a note?" a few moments before McKay asks himself just that. These and the little touches of character continuity were much appreciated.

That said, Ouroboros, you weren't bothered by the not-so-mathematically-sound time dilation stuff or the, IMO, somewhat shaky resolution to the whole Beast plot? I figure you wouldn't care whether any backstory about Sheppard was revealed or not.

[Re: Sheppard's Ancient connection]
a) he's genetically an Ancient via freak mutation or eugenics
b) time-traveling Janus or another Ancient of your choice is somehow closely related to him
c) he was an Ascended Ancient but got booted out because of his smartass attitude, memory erased
d) some terrible plot twist I can't begin to describe involving fate, destiny, cosmic purposes, blahblahblah, and Atlantis

Yes! All of those things! A to D. ESPECIALLY D!

Well, I can't see how it could be A or B and C at the same time, lol. You actually like D though? Personally, while I think it could be interesting, I'm also a bit wary of how TPTB would handle something like that and, yeah, it would be a bit cliched. Sheppard's got something going with the Ancients and Atlantis, to be sure, but the more interesting approach, I feel, would be to keep his presence in Pegasus a risk he took (though I'd be open to Sheppard never having found his place on Earth because he always felt like he didn't belong) that turned out better than he'd ever expected and have others (Pegasus natives, even the expedition members) think it smacks of destiny.

Now, because I can't hope to keep up with you guys, general and out-of-order comments about lots of stuff.

Re: Sheppard

His abandonment issues weren't nearly as bad as I first assumed. Not that this in any way changes the fact that John Sheppard is a real headcase.

I tried to pay special attention to the passage of time for Sheppard, and it wasn't until he'd been left alone for two days that he began to doubt whether anyone was coming for him ("We don't leave people behind... right?!"). That he stayed in the cave for as long as he did (3-5 days) waiting for his team to come through before reluctantly leaving when dwindling supplies forced him to forage is his basic optimism and belief in people showing. However, at the same time, I think while Sheppard's optimism is very strong, it's also a brittle thing. Which is to say, when it breaks, it breaks hard.

He held on to his faith in his friends by the skin of his teeth until Avrid told him it was impossible to leave. That broke him hard.

Afterwards, he halfheartedly tried to join the community, searched for a means to get himself out, and wasted time. I'm not sure he knew what to do. He didn't want to Ascend with the hippies, he couldn't get back to Atlantis on his own, and his friends seemed to have all but abandoned him.

Sheppard did explore the planet (smart boy) but, reasonably, he didn't figure out he was stuck in a time warp. That he assumed within the first month that the expedition had given up on him despite (or because of?) his personal stance of never letting people go until he sees them dead himself (Ford comes to mind) still shows abandonment issues, but I think anyone would've eventually doubted given the circumstances. It's how easily John resigned himself to being alone that's telling.

Re: Weir

I figure a good number of the scientists know at least a smidgen of Ancient--seems like it would be useful when you're taking apart an Ancient city--and there's probably a team of linguists hiding somewhere in Atlantis.

Why did Weir go then?

Erm. I'm going to go with mcalex22, I think, and say Sheppard's self-sacrificing tendencies are beginning to rub off on her. Her and the rest of the expedition, lol. Only she can overrule everybody else.

Possibly she's also sick of watching her military commander go off and get himself almost killed over and over again, and she decided this time she would go in person to assure herself he's still alive after all. That she disregards her own safety and responsibilities is frustrating but human. Again, in my perfect world, half the expedition wanted to come along and help somehow because this was Sheppard, but Weir rightly drew the line there while allowing herself to go.

Actually, it's exactly this sort of reaction that makes Sheppard's brand of leadership both incredibly effective and terribly dangerous.

(Notice I deftly stirred clear of any ship implications. )

Re: The Team

TEAM LOVE!

Like Drwho'srose, I think, I loved the interaction between Rodney and Ronon. The two seemingly most dissimilar members of the team are really scarily alike. They both know how to enjoy their food, they're both completely loyal to Sheppard and the team while being the least likely to say so as opposed to taking action, and they both react to bad situations by falling back on old patterns--Rodney reverts to being a bit of a jerk, and Ronon skips directly to the violence.

The fun, of course, is all in the fact that, despite how similar they are, Ronon and Rodney interact with the world very, very differently.

Tok'Ra Hostess, I think you were the one who mentioned McKay snarking in the opening scene. I thought it was rather cute myself. (Why'd you park the jumper so far away?! Didn't ask for a log! MALP on a stick! LOL!)

Let me explain. I think bickering has become the SOP of Sheppard's team. They head through the stargate, (more or less) boldly go where no one has gone before, and spend the vast majority of their time, when not getting into trouble, strolling through forests and fields (that bear a suspicious resemblance to British Columbia) and snarking at each other the entire time. I suspect it's mostly Sheppard and McKay with Ronon and Teyla, especially, looking on in some combination of amusement, amused incomprehension, and amused tolerance.

In short, I think these people know each other too well to take offense at your normal, everyday garden variety of snark. Just compare the team's interaction at the start of "Epiphany" with the trust-breaking moments of "Trinity."

Re: The Beast

After watching the episode, I definitely think the Beast is the manifestation of the villagers' fears about Ascension that they wouldn't admit or face. So, Drwho'srose, I think, the villagers weren't thick. Just in denial. Which is, IMO, actually easier to do the sharper you are because you're that much better at spinning believable excuses.

In this case, the villagers weren't ready to Ascend, and so they created the Beast (ah, the downside of having mysterious powers), possibly subconsciously, as something they could blame for their not Ascending yet. While intuition was probably telling them the Beast was of their own creation, the villagers couldn't face that, and so their heads stuck to the story that the Beast had to be defeated in order to achieve Ascension.

edit: Which is true, in a way, but not the way the villagers told Sheppard at first. And themselves, I think, until the end. And, yes, I bet this is the epiphany of the title.

Sheppard's face to the storm attitude shamed them and stripped their delusions away. Once they realized what they've been doing, for a community of psychics, it was easy enough to banish the Beast.


edit: tags

[Callie]

Loved Rodney and Carson automatically stepping in front of Elizabeth to try and protect her against the Beast, though I have to wonder why she wasn’t armed and apparently hasn’t learned to fire a gun yet.

I was a little concerned at Carson describing his date as Lieutenant Cadman rather than Laura Cadman!

Favourite line (apart from the “MALP on a stick” one): Shep into radio: “I’m pretty sure you can’t hear me, but I don’t have a volleyball to talk to, so what the hell.”

Ronon and Teyla get knocked into the middle of next week by the Beast, and John falls off its back. The other three members of the team run to each of the downed members to check them. Carson picks up Ronon’s sword and sticks it point-first into the ground before checking if Ronon’s alright. Why?! Is this normal behaviour from a medical doctor?! I can think of no other reason why he would do this other than that the script said to do it so that Ronon didn’t have to bend all the way over to pick it up a minute or two later!

[AutumnDream]

Maybe a doctor is supposed to eliminate any dangerous pointy objects so people don't get hurt any more? >.> (Weak explanation.)

I didn't really get how they interacted with the beast. Wasn't it just energy or something? And man, I wish that would have been done differently. Their fears could have manifested in any number of cool ways. Which makes me wonder, why would a culmination of fear-based energy make a stupid roaring noise?

[Cynicat]

Like Drwho'srose, I think, I loved the interaction between Rodney and Ronon. The two seemingly most dissimilar members of the team are really scarily alike. They both know how to enjoy their food, they're both completely loyal to Sheppard and the team while being the least likely to say so as opposed to taking action, and they both react to bad situations by falling back on old patterns---Rodney reverts to being a bit of a jerk, and Ronon skips directly to the violence.

The fun, of course, is all in the fact that, despite how similar they are, Ronon and Rodney interact with the world very, very differently.

Wordy McWord. They'll snark until the cows come home, but can get along fine when they're both clearly focussed on the same goal (and on achieving it in the same way), as evidenced (IMHO) in this little exchange:

Rodney: Hey, we may even get a ZPM outta this. [pistol-finger with sound effect at Ronon]
Ronon: Now you're talkin'.

If nothing else, it was another great little character moment - something this ep certainly had no shortage of. McKay fans especially are being spoiled rotten in that regard (hey, I ain't complaining! )