Epiphany (212)

[prion]

He had a spare one hidden in his hair

Sorry if someone said it before... I'm catching up

He didn't have it when he left "Hive," so I suspect that, gasp, he went off-world and got himself a new one!

[prion]

Stupid question of the day.
If the "beast" was the sum of all their fears, why it attacked Sheppard? He clearly didn't fear it the same way than the others. So it pushed the ascending ones to prevent them from ascending/escaping, but as Sheppard wasn't one of them it hurt him? How someone else's fear can hurt you if you don't know about that fear?
Signed: Lost in rhetorics

Well, someone else's fears can hurt you if they turn into a physical manifestation capable of shredding your clothing and clawing up your skin. Watch the classic The Forbidden Planet. This critter was a scaled down version of the monster from the id. I suspect it didn't hurt anybody in the cloister because subconsciously it would be hurting themselves, but Sheppard was a stranger so maybe he was more fair game?

Sort of ironic that there they are spouting that violence will hurt their chance to ascend, so they channel their violent tendencies and thoughts into the beast.

[prion]

I didn't mind it as much this time round... Tolerable compared to Sanctuary. At least he didn't lose his capacity to think on this occasion and there was no Rodney McKay nagging him even if he was directing his energies barking orders at "Conan" and "Xena". But what is it about ascended women that they're so dull?! Something about being on the path, I imagine. She just lacked any "zing"... the little girl came across much more spirited.
Unlike Sanctuary, this episode kept its sense of humour and Sheppard wasn't portrayed as a complete "himbo".

Probably just a lot of upset people, not getting the Sheppard backstory they were hoping for. I wouldn't worry about it.

Think the backstory theory came from writers, etc. saying 'you'll find out this' and well, we found out he was scared of lightning as a kid, but I really hoping for tidbits from his adult life. Oh well.

Aw, poor Shep. Those ascended women are like moths to a flame and then go all glowy and leave him. Meanwhile, it's not like McKay has done much better (remember "The Brotherhood") and we don't know if he's dating whatsername from "Duet." Beckett seems to be the only one who IS getting reliable dates

I really haven't seen much 'Kirk' in Sheppard myself.

Yeah, ascended folk are pretty dull. The kid (Hetta) was the liveiest of the bunch.

[PartyLikeIts1984]

This is how the episode broke down for me. I'm too lazy to check up on every single post, only the last five or so pages, so if I repeat anything, feel free to yell at me. Okay, that was a joke. Don't yell, really.

1. Personally I was a little pissed at the Ancient Chick for not letting them take the ZPM. Who's going to use it? It seems like a cheap way to Ascend. Sit around meditating in safety and then go all glowy. I agree with Shep; you shouldn't Ascend to a higher plane when you haven't even experienced the one you're on. The Atlanteans need a ZPM more than the Pegasus Galaxy need a place for people to go and get the Cliff Notes version of Ascension.

2. I loved seeing Translator!Weir. That was one of the hi-lights for me, seeing her be all pro-active instead of sitting tight and keeping the homefires burining.

3. I don't like being yanked around with Shep's backstory. I was really looking forward to seeing that in the second season, and there hasn't been any for any of the characters.

4. I seem to be in the minority, but I see very little comparison between "100 Days" and "Epiphany" other than the aging. First of all, in "100 Days" the community was there for entirely sinister reasons, not so with "Epiphany." Not to mention there was nothing dangerous about the "100 Days" place other than the nanite, no real fightable enemy. In "100 Days" there is drugged!sex that starts the whole mess, in "Epiphany" it's a portal. Other than the obvious plot differences, the characters deal with entirely different emotions. For O'Neill it's impending death, for Shep it's abandonment. O'Neill knows that nothing can be done and says goodbye to his team, while Shep has no closure whatsoever and thinks that they just up and left him. Then there's the fact that O'Neill gets very, very old and is dying slowly, while Shep has this weird need to get his ass kicked by a physical manifestation of a bunch of wimpy Ancient X-Men's fears.

I mean, I seriously see very few connections.

5. Um...that's it really. Wait! No, I have to add that I like the obvious charcter development in McKay, and the way they're showing how the team is bonding. Also, props to Ronan. I was scared I'd never be able to see him as anything other than Not!Ford, but his character is developing and growing and all that interesting stuff that characters do on good TV shows. That makes me very happy, I must say.

And also, is it Kirkian if Shep actually knows the girl for more than a few hours? I mean, she had the whole "native alien woman" thing going for her, but Kirk usually barely knew the name of his alien booty.


Oh, and:

Yeah. 'Nuff said.

[Michelle05]

I so loved Rodney in this episode. His fast talking really came in handy; every rushed syllable as he tried to explain what was going on and get the rescue underway saved John hours, I'm sure. I liked that he admitted responsibility for not noticing the time dilation and then took command of the situation, so determined to fix his mistake and get John back alive. I loved his bossing everyone around, and the "Xena and Conan" line was a classic.

The plot was tight and logical to me if you accept that such things are possible. The only thing I didn't get out of it was any real angst on Sheppard's part. He was annoyed and bored, but I wish more had been made of his doubts about whether his team would really come for him. Also he reacted with anger when they found him, and we never got to see relief or joy, or sadness that his sort-of girlfriend had just left him.

But otherwise I liked it a lot and will re-watch for sure.

[lily]

4. I seem to be in the minority, but I see very little comparison between "100 Days" and "Epiphany" other than the aging. First of all, in "100 Days" the community was there for entirely sinister reasons, not so with "Epiphany." Not to mention there was nothing dangerous about the "100 Days" place other than the nanite, no real fightable enemy. In "100 Days" there is drugged!sex that starts the whole mess, in "Epiphany" it's a portal. Other than the obvious plot differences, the characters deal with entirely different emotions. For O'Neill it's impending death, for Shep it's abandonment. O'Neill knows that nothing can be done and says goodbye to his team, while Shep has no closure whatsoever and thinks that they just up and left him. Then there's the fact that O'Neill gets very, very old and is dying slowly, while Shep has this weird need to get his ass kicked by a physical manifestation of a bunch of wimpy Ancient X-Men's fears.

I mean, I seriously see very few connections.

You're talking about season 1's "Brief Candle". That's the one with the aging Jack, etc. We're talking about "A hundred days", from season 3. The one that leaves Jack stranded off-world .

[Yeade]

A real quick reply to some stuff.

I didn't really get how they interacted with the beast. Wasn't it just energy or something? And man, I wish that would have been done differently. Their fears could have manifested in any number of cool ways. Which makes me wonder, why would a culmination of fear-based energy make a stupid roaring noise?

ROTFLMAO!

Anyways, I handwaved all that as being weird things that happen when you get together a community of freaky psychics and collectively manifest their fears about going to a higher plane of existence. Whatever. There's no real way to extrapolate, I think, how exactly the Beast was created. Heck, it could be a collective hallucination, similar to the nanovirus-induced visions in "Hot Zone" except the villagers' telekinetic powers made it possible to physically interact with it.

Again. Whatever.

[Re: The Beast's origins] Yes but ten thousand years (of evolution) and no-one was a little bit suspicious? That is more denial then I like to think about.

The people who figured it out Ascended? And didn't bother to share their revelation with anyone?

It wasn't a perfect episode by any means but it never insulted my intelligence like the hive did so it doesn't really earn any spite from me. The ending was actually somewhat unexpected to because I was actually expecting the thing to be a new type of Wraith.

You know, it's downright fascinating to read everyone's reactions to the episode. I understand that many thought the Beast being a manifestation of the villagers' fear was pretty cliched.

As far as the math adding up I think it's a pretty shaky complaint to make. No one ever specified any hard numbers that I can remember and the time dilation ratio got figured out by Teyla and McKay verbally counting out one end of it. Not exactly precise scientific measurment going on here. It would have made less sense if their estimates HAD been perfectly accurate.

There were hard numbers--Teyla (incorrectly, I think) calculated a ratio--and soft numbers--"a few hours" or similar from Weir and "six months" from Sheppard.

Anyways, the whole thing begs the question of why nobody tried to make more accurate measurements of the time dilation when there were watches on hand. Even if that's put off as an (understandable, IMO) oversight given the rush-rush-rush circumstances, all the figures dropped here and there should've at least roughly agreed. And any math done in estimation should've been correct and self-consistent.

Ah, well. I'll just chalk it up to SGA having time issues and generally not being able to get the science right.

(I'm watching SGA with a physicist friend of mine, and indeed she spends a great deal of time yelling "LIES, LIES, LIES!" Can't wait until she gets to "Trinity," exotic particles, and the laws of the universe breaking down. I imagine the biologists have the same trouble dealing with... well, everything Beckett does.)

The only thing I didn't get out of it was any real angst on Sheppard's part. He was annoyed and bored, but I wish more had been made of his doubts about whether his team would really come for him. Also he reacted with anger when they found him, and we never got to see relief or joy, or sadness that his sort-of girlfriend had just left him.

Well, Sheppard admitted he kind of missed the others. So long as he has an audience, I think that's about all we're going to get out of him. Really, he spends an inordinate amount of time deflecting people with superficial interest and a smirk. I bet the villagers got only the following out of him in six months: he has friends elsewhere that he cares about, he thinks meditation is boring and doesn't care much for Ascension, he enjoys jogging and doing menial work, and he found thunderstorms scary when he was kid. That last one ranks right up there with fear of clowns, love of ferris wheels, football, and things that go fast in terms of self-disclosure.


edit: tags

[Michelle05]

Really, he spends an inordinate amount of time deflecting people with superficial interest and a smirk. I bet the villagers got only the following out of him in six months: he has friends elsewhere that he cares about, he thinks meditation is boring and doesn't care much for Ascension, he enjoys jogging and doing menial work, and he found thunderstorms scary when he was kid. That last one ranks right up there with fear of clowns, love of ferris wheels, football, and things that go fast in terms of self-disclosure.

This is true. He's just not an angsty character. Jack doesn't like to talk about himself either, but the reluctance appears rooted in pain, not simple flippancy. With Sheppard you're left wondering if anything unpleasant ever touched him deeply. I'm not even sure the clown thing was for real!

[SGalisa]

ooo! snippet "Epiphany" pics... from one who can't see the ep yet, likes!! nice boots!

Originally posted by prion:
I really haven't seen much 'Kirk' in Sheppard myself.

okay, that makes two of us... as I mentioned previously and been believing in the following statement for a long while, now:

Originally posted by SGalisa:
Shep may have a magnetic personality (attracting the girls in more than one way), but he's still not Kirk. He's more like Spock (but with more personality spunk and *brains* in the MENSA ability area. Kirk was too dumb to figure that stuff out...)

Kirk always gave those *dumb* looks whenever Spock started calculating, as if saying "right Spock, whatever you say..." ...Kirk couldn't compute (calculate) that fast.

[AutumnDream]

I've checked a fair amount of cool sciene stuff in Atlantis against encyclopedias and it all seems to check out fine, except the things that lean more towards the "fiction" part of "sciene fiction".

Sheppard... hmm... I wouldn't be surprised if he was actually scared of clowns. I would be equally unsurprised, though, if he was just pulling funny stuff off the top of his mind.

[PartyLikeIts1984]

You're talking about season 1's "Brief Candle". That's the one with the aging Jack, etc. We're talking about "A hundred days", from season 3. The one that leaves Jack stranded off-world .

I'm sorry, yeah...I was trying to be sarcastic and I failed.

[Ouroboros]

You know, it's downright fascinating to read everyone's reactions to the episode. I understand that many thought the Beast being a manifestation of the villagers' fear was pretty cliched.

It pretty much is since the whole manifest fear thing has been done to death in sci-fi but the way the plot set it up you didn't really see it going in that direction or at least I didn't. Like I mentioned before to there was also the elements of metaphor which was like 10,000 volts to the nads for me in terms of how shocking it was to see something even that deep on Stargate Atlantis. Maybe it was accidental, just something I'm reading too much into?

There were hard numbers---Teyla (incorrectly, I think) calculated a ratio---and soft numbers---"a few hours" or similar from Weir and "six months" from Sheppard.

All those numbers were derived by someone going 1,2,3 and then comapring that to the time on the recording devices though. It was bound to be off by some margin since people can't count seconds with the same precision a machine does.

Anyways, the whole thing begs the question of why nobody tried to make more accurate measurements of the time dilation when there were watches on hand. Even if that's put off as an (understandable, IMO) oversight given the rush-rush-rush circumstances, all the figures dropped here and there should've at least roughly agreed. And any math done in estimation should've been correct and self-consistent.

It wasn't really necessary since they already had a pretty good idea of what the ratio was. A precise measurment just would have been a pointless waste of time they didn't have.

(I'm watching SGA with a physicist friend of mine, and indeed she spends a great deal of time yelling "LIES, LIES, LIES!" Can't wait until she gets to "Trinity," exotic particles, and the laws of the universe breaking down. I imagine the biologists have the same trouble dealing with... well, everything Beckett does.)

Beckett had me wanting to strangle him for his repeated insistance that the Wraith are more genetically insect than human and I'm not anything close to a biologist. I guess you missed the knock down drag out of a thread we had over that particular point of needlessly injected scientific idiocy.

[Easter Lily]

This is true. He's just not an angsty character. Jack doesn't like to talk about himself either, but the reluctance appears rooted in pain, not simple flippancy. With Sheppard you're left wondering if anything unpleasant ever touched him deeply. I'm not even sure the clown thing was for real!

I believe the writing/direction had a large part to play there... The whole sequence of Sheppard being stuck in purgatory was done very haphazardly... in flashes of sequences. Time moved too quickly to allow for contemplation and hence, diminishing any emotional punch it could have had. In the case of A Hundred Days or Inner Light (ST:TNG), the writers/director took their time... they dwelt on the relationships, on the character. Epiphany, on the hand, was all about movement of time happening much more quickly within the sanctum and sacrificed character development there for the sake of keeping pace with events on the other side of the portal.
This is why I prefer The Hive... because it took its time with the characters... it allowed the audience to see the characters from a different angle while slowing down the movement of time.

[Shep'sSocks]

This is true. He's just not an angsty character. Jack doesn't like to talk about himself either, but the reluctance appears rooted in pain, not simple flippancy. With Sheppard you're left wondering if anything unpleasant ever touched him deeply. I'm not even sure the clown thing was for real!

Oooh, so don't agree with this. He doesn't tend to show it but it's all internal. Remember, this is the guy who conjured up dead people in Home. But do come on over to the Sheppard Appreciation and Discussion thread for a chat. Wouldn't mind hearing your reasoning.

[Shep'sSocks]

I believe the writing/direction had a large part to play there... The whole sequence of Sheppard being stuck in purgatory was done very haphazardly... in flashes of sequences. Time moved too quickly to allow for contemplation and hence, diminishing any emotional punch it could have had. In the case of A Hundred Days or Inner Light (ST:TNG), the writers/director took their time... they dwelt on the relationships, on the character. Epiphany, on the hand, was all about movement of time happening much more quickly within the sanctum and sacrificed character development there for the sake of keeping pace with events on the other side of the portal.
This is why I prefer The Hive... because it took its time with the characters... it allowed the audience to see the characters from a different angle while slowing down the movement of time.

I think the entire episode should have been on Sheppard in the cave without the sundry wannabee ascendees. All the cave stuff with him talking to his radio was fabulous. Sheppard angst, in cave, flashbacks. Wouldn't that have been splendid?