The Hive (211)

[neko138]

yeah, but i'd like that gun too, its awesome, and downs a wraith with one shot. >_< maybe we should see if we can mass produce them. i liked how they brought the Genii into it and the missing c4. that was clever, i didnt see that one coming. (infact, id nearly forgotten about the Genii. -nearly)

[smushybird]

This was a fun episode.

Rodney was hilarious, my hulk 'chop really was apt
Ford seemed more like normal Ford at the end, but I have a feeling that if we see him again he'll be back to crazy Ford.
The clown thing was awesome.
Shep once again mentioned he likes Ronan's wep, I see a potential running joke here

Yes, but it's risky having one guy tell another guy one too many times just how much he likes his weapon...

Anyone know if a transcript for The Hive has been posted anywhere yet?

I wonder if Rodney will have flashbacks.

[Yeade]

Thanks for reminding me of the "Conversion" time issues, prion. That was definitely like blink, cue commercial break, and weeks pass. I was watching "The Defiant One" with a friend tonight and noticed something of the same there. Sheppard and McKay were stranded on that planet for ten-something hours! SGA doesn't really do well with the whole passage of time thing, does it?

What was Caldwell trying to do in Conversion? Get Sheppard's job by taking advantage of the fact he'd been compromised by the Wraith DNA. Weir did not like that one bit. I can't see the little DNA repairing thing they made (in a rush, I might add) being 100% efficient. She probably told Beckett to tell Shep and anyone who asked that he'd been completely restored so that Caldwell wouldn't have any grounds to make a move for power, or for Earth to start on the road to replacing everyone... especially her dear friend John.

Aaaahhhh! Vague ship references! Stay away, stay away!

(I prefer to think Weir goes to bat for Sheppard because he's a known, if sometimes volatile, factor that accepts her as the authority in Atlantis. He lets her, even helps her, keep Atlantis a largely civilian mission despite the war with the Wraith where other military commanders might not be so cooperative. Anyways...)

I love this idea of yours! It does make a lot of sense. If only it'll actually happen...

And I'm heading rapidly off-topic, aren't I? Okay. Stop, stop.

[AutumnDream]

It all technically traces back to how he could fly the dart, so it's fine.

I think that they might sorta have the feeling that, "This is our home", and the ownership of Atlantis is partially a personal issue to Weir and others.

Oh man, had they put in that theoretical scene with Weir asking Beckett to keep that a secret from Caldwell, it would have really raised the tension in a number of ways. I'll go back in time and suggest it,

[9-Chevron]

to be honest with you ppl this episode sucked

[AutumnDream]

Do not speak out against this episode or the clowns will get you.

Hallowed are the clowns.

[Ouroboros]

Also, paying closer attention to the timing during the end battle, Sheppard didn't even wait until the hives started firing upon each other to break off. After that first strafing run, in a wide shot that follows, a few darts broke off to pursue Sheppard away from the hive he was attacking and off the screen toward, presumably, the stargate. That gives him yet more time to escape before the hives explode.

It's still minutes though. We can't really slip much time in there either because the D was getting shot at and we know from previous eps that the Wraith guns drain it's shields very fast.

I can't quite see the Wraith having something to counter the enzyme as it's crucial to keeping their food alive during the feeding process---developing a chemical blocker would be rather self-defeating. (No snarky comments about how something that stupid seems like just the kind of thing the Wraith would do! ) A good point about physical activity burning the enzyme off faster though... However, I think many might feel cheated of the expected difficult drug withdrawal if it were any faster or easier.

So in over 10,000 years of empire the Wraith never once encountered someone who got too much of the enzyme for reason X despite the fact that injecting people with the enzyme is probably the thing they do most often in life, after grinning like idiots, jerking their heads around and polishing their clown shoes of course.

You know we still have cures for illnesses that don't even exist anymore here on Earth.

LOL! What can I say? I try. It's what I do.

You probably deserve a cut of Mr. Binder's pay-check then since you've done more work on this story than he has.

Actually, rewatching the episode, I got the impression that the gaps were a lot smaller than they appear on the caps. There's quite a bit of distortion because of the perspective and distances involved. So... I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree here. I truly believe it would've been difficult, if not outright impossible, to squeeze Teyla safely through those bars, and you believe it would've been a great deal easier. If only we had someone on set to provide us with actual dimensions! (Geeky wishful thinking! )

You've got to remember that people aren't made of wood, they're squishy and can put one arm up over their heads and assume a variety of other poses. She could have done it without much trouble. Shep probably could have done it to, maybe even Ronan if the web junk had some stretch to it.

Only, you see, Ford's heroic escape would've boiled down to so-and-so many minutes of action. It's already character development that we and the other characters know Ford made the heroic escape and came to Sheppard's rescue only to make the heroic last stand. Showing it would've appeased people like you and me and IWantToBelieve about the logistics, but I don't think it's strictly necessary for "character development." With limited time and such a large cast, I think certain scenes had to be conveyed by telling. It's just unfortunate that telling doesn't have the same impact or clarity as showing.

Ok wait, you're really just willing to give them carte blanche to pull whatever they want out of their asses whenever they want and not call it for what it is, that being lazy sub-amateurish writing.

So next episode if Sumner shows up to save the day at the last minute when doom seems assured that'll be cool? We'll just sit here in the thread and make up reasons why he's not dead and not aged anymore because the writers don't have to.

Wow you're a pretty generous person, can you put me on your Christmas list.

This doesn't really fall under the category of character development anyway. This is a plot issue. Character development would have been them showing Ford break down to Sheppard in the cell and ask him not to tell his family what really happened to him out there.

Also, regarding Ford, on my rewatch, Sheppard's argument with the Wraith as Ford was taken away jumped out. Sheppard yelled that Ford was sick, and the only reply he got was "we know" or something to that effect. Neera then helpfully adds that Ford was being taken to a cocoon so that he may be kept alive. And this in the context of Kanayo's earlier death is more support for the cocooning having something to do with Ford's survival and recovery.

Once again there is no proof for any of this. All the other cacooned guys we saw were all asleep or tranqued or something so why should it suddenly be different for Ford who's closer to death's door than they are? Why didn't we just get a scene explaining his escape so we could save the whole argument and mountains of speculation over how it happened?

Oh yes that's right, because the episode was delivered to us with a note that said "some assembly required".

Of course in this case the note probably would have read "some *blank* required" and we would have had to guess what word goes in there by ourselves right.

Some salsa required maybe? I like Salsa. Got some right now as a matter of fact.

So, Ouroboros and IWantToBelieve, as exasperating as it might be that fans often have to step in and fill the plotholes, I wouldn't expect anything else so long as TPTB actually have to air SGA and other shows week after week. And, as a fan, I'm more than willing to provide constructive criticism as long as I can for my own personal peace of mind and in hopes that TPTB will note someone's concerned about this-or-that. I don't much mind the work really.

I think I remember from the other thread you telling me that you haven't watched much if any of the new Battlestar Galactica.

All I'll suggest is that you do so. After a few episodes of that series have worked their way through your system you'll see lackluster crap like "the hive" just like I do. It's like eating frying pan hamburgers all your life then tasting a $50 dollar steak a few times and trying to go back to frying pan hamburgers.

Drek like the Hive here only goes down easy when you're not regularly exposed to anything significantly better. As someone coming off Farscape, Firefly, 24, The Shield, 6 feet under, The Sopranos, Lost and now BSG as his typical line-up I can tell you that to me the writing on Atlantis tastes just like those burgers 90% of the time.

Of course it's still fun to have a Burger on Friday every once in a while You just can't expect to live on them and you're perfectly entitled to complain when there's a dead roach in yours, even if you did go in with lowered expectations.

[Ascended Times.2]

Do not speak out against this episode or the clowns will get you.

Hallowed are the clowns.

-shudders and pulls out shotguns- I'm a-ready for them clowns....
As you can see, I have an irrational fear of clowns and.....Mimes.......

edit: YES! Mimes was my last word said as I hit 800 posts!! -does the happy dance-

[Easter Lily]

Finally, lily, srg, Easter Lily, don't get me wrong. I enjoyed watching "The Hive," and I loved many of the little moments people have been mentioning, laughed at all the funny spots, and much appreciated teh pretty. It's mostly out of love for my show that I spend so much time untangling the nasty plot snarls and other details that, in the end, were probably never intended to be picked at.

I'm the type, I suppose, that can't help but analyze. And I want SGA to make sense because I love it so.

I take SGA as it is and as it could be.

That said, I'm actually pretty forgiving about all these little details. I have a lot of fun discussing them with others, and I do try to come up with viable solutions, but I always try to keep in mind that the cast and crew probably don't have the time to worry about most of these. While I'll always hope the logical kinks can be ironed out, and I note when there are problems, I definitely don't let it interfere with my squee and support of the series.

I hope you know that my comments weren't a criticism of anyone with contrary views but just observations and of course, personal ramblings. I'm all for being analytical really... but I work and have a 4 year old who hovers around me if I spend too much time on the comp. What I did was to pick up on what Lily said about the fact that two people can watch the same scenario and take completely different things from it. I've tried to engage with people in the past about apparent character inconsistencies and plot holes, and while it's fun for a time, it does get tricky when one realises that one's adversary is coming from a completely different point of view. There's not much point in arguing when all it really boils down to is likes and dislikes. I'm a big picture person... the nitty gritty while it has its attractions can get become too much like navel gazing.

As I've said on page 5, I really enjoyed this episode... it's all the little character moments that make it happen for me. I found it strangely and unexpectedly moving... an area in which Carl Binder excels. I don't know what I expected... perhaps The Eye... but I got Before I Sleep and Letters to Pegasus instead. There's a lovely human quality to this episode and for me that covers a multitude of sins. I enjoy action very much... and it's always terrific when we can get both action and solid characterization. With The Hive, there was a sense of quiet... a sense of people battling their own weaknesses. The Wraith is not that important in the scheme of things in so far as they are a trigger. The heart of the story are the characters... how they cope... how they deal with extraordinary situations while battling their inner demons.

[AutumnDream]

It's still minutes though. We can't really slip much time in there either because the D was getting shot at and we know from previous eps that the Wraith guns drain it's shields very fast.

The dart guns probably don't. It's probably the hive and cruiser weaponry that really hurts the "D", and it looked like the hives were keeping their firepower ready in case of some inter-species fighting. (Which ended up happening.)

So in over 10,000 years of empire the Wraith never once encountered someone who got too much of the enzyme for reason X despite the fact that injecting people with the enzyme is probably the thing they do most often in life, after grinning like idiots, jerking their heads around and polishing their clown shoes of course.

In 10,000 years? Yup. If someone got too much of the enzyme during a feeding, nobody would know or care because the person would have died either right there, or a bit later from the withdrawl. Seriously, who else in the Pegasus galaxy would have had the means to wean someone off the enzyme or even acquire more enzyme with which to do so before Ford did it with Beckett's stores of the stuff?

...and humans have a lot of stupid little characteristic things they do. Keep in mind we've only have seen military wraith, with the exception of Instinct. Human military men usually have that obnoxious loud "tough-man" voice, the same hair, the same clothes, and they behave very stoically. Who's to say that the position of wraith commander doesn't attract a similar lot of wraith males?

You've got to remember that people aren't made of wood, they're squishy and can put one arm up over their heads and assume a variety of other poses. She could have done it without much trouble. Shep probably could have done it to, maybe even Ronan if the web junk had some stretch to it.

I still think it looked too small. Plus, I'm sure they'd have some measures in place to keep their prisoners from getting out. Not even the most idiotic of Goa'ulds would build a cell with an escape as blatantly obvious as that.

So next episode if Sumner shows up to save the day at the last minute when doom seems assured that'll be cool? We'll just sit here in the thread and make up reasons why he's not dead and not aged anymore because the writers don't have to.

That's a liiiiittle more extreme than Super!Ford coming to save the day.

Once again there is no proof for any of this. All the other cacooned guys we saw were all asleep or tranqued or something so why should it suddenly be different for Ford who's closer to death's door than they are? Why didn't we just get a scene explaining his escape so we could save the whole argument and mountains of speculation over how it happened?

The trapped people were likely hit by stunners, and then there's no telling the effects of being in there long-term. Now, Ronan and Teyla recovered from their sweaty misery (No, I'm not talking about some weird shipper fan-fiction ), and Ford had enzyme more recently than anyone, so who's so say that he got cocooned at all? He was probably acting more sick than he was so that when the wraith came he'd be able to overcome them, what with them thinking he was incapacitated. Yes, an explanation would have been nice. There really were a bunch of oversights in this one. Maybe Ford'll tell us next time we see him.

Of course it's still fun to have a Burger on Friday every once in a while You just can't expect to live on them and you're perfectly entitled to complain when there's a dead roach in yours, even if you did go in with lowered expectations.

Geeeez! Comparing Atlantis to dead roaches found in burgers... it wasn't that bad!

[Callie]

I have the first draft of the transcript done and posted on the Yahoo SG-1 Transcripts Group. Hopefully Celsitude will soon post a version on her new site, http://moon-catchin.net/gatenoise/sgatranscripts.htm#2 but it depends how busy she is at the moment.

Darren doesn't intend to publish the transcript on Gateworld until after the episode has broadcast on Skiffy. Anyone desperate for a copy before then, email me at callie_atl AT hotmail DOT com and I can send you a version in a Word file.

Can anybody out there do a better job at translating high-pitched hysterical Canadian than me? I managed the whole scene in the Gateroom fine but could only make out a very little of Rodney's rambling to himself at the DHD. What I did get was:

Spoiler:

McKAY: Big dose! Big, big dose! But you needed it. You needed it to get the crystals – idiot! You wanted the crystals ... (He continues rambling to himself as he carries on dialing.) ... like butter, like a knife through butter ... (He finishes inputting the symbols and the Gate starts to dial.) Please work, please work. (He leans on the central button, his eyes bloodshot and his face contorted in an expression of desperation. The Gate kawhooshes.) OK, go home. (He heads towards the Gate.)

If anyone caught other phrases and can tell me exactly where they fit, I'll add them to the next draft to make it more accurate. Thanks!

And if Hewlett doesn't get at least a nomination for an acting award very soon, there ain't no justice!

BTW, does anyone know what's happened to ScifiGate? Has it gone for good or has it just moved?

[IWantToBelieve]

I think Ouroboros hit the nail on the head. I do watch BSG, and this episode would've left you feeling punched in the gut if it had been those writers - and that's what I was expecting.

Our guys were in the hands of the wraith! Show some drama, show some impact - this is serious stuff! Yet, there wasn't any danger, any sense of helplessness or "Oh god, oh god, we're going to die"...instead it was just...enzyme and queenie showing she has the intelligence of a gullible five year old.

The thing of it is, I have no problem with the acting. I loved the moments with McKay, and Beckett, and Sheppard and the others - the problem was that was only what should've been the icing on the cake - this episode needed MORE. It needed the wraith to be evil and scary.

It needed a constant emotion of 'we are so screwed'...remember the SG-1 episode 'The Blood of Sokar'? Throughout that entire episode there was the prevailing sense of doom. Their escape, while something that normally wouldn't happen except one in a million, was a least believable - explainable (and they DID explain it in the show).

Carl Binder's writing can be good. I loved Aurora. This episode wasn't an Aurora. Not even close to that quality, and for that I don't blame only Binder, I blame the rest of the team, because they've got to have the guts to take a script and say 'this isn't gonna work'.

We did get some good moments in it, but where they failed completely was in giving the wraith a believable enemy stance. The wraith in the Hive were completely stupid, largely non-threatening, and that was because of the script.

They want to make the wraith this big bad enemy - then do it. Don't rush a script and undo what was well done in season 1. In season 1 there was dramatic build up to these scary bad guys, and I know I for one anticipated a Sheppard-Wraith situation like the hive because of the build up, and then when it happens - what? Nothing. Absofragging nothing. This wasn't a failure only to amp up the wraith threat, but it was also to continue the subtle build up in season one. Sheppard with Steve, Sheppard with Bob - Sheppard with the unnamed wraith in Siege I...and then Sheppard finally is in their hands, ancient gene, flies their ships, and queenie not only makes an incredibly lackluster attempt at finding out more, but then went to feed on him?

For me, that's where the major problems with this episode happen. The complete failure to ramp up the wraith. The complete failure to carry on with the wraith-sheppard dynamic. There was only surface emotions, and no baggage earned in this.

And if they bring Ford back all I will think is 'whatever', because the damn ships blew up to kingdom come but we all know how he makes these miraculous escapes.

[CYBEREAGLE19]

I also forgot now where down to 53 hive ships woo hoo, finaly caught the episode, pretty good, only a few things I didnt like. also if every hive ship has a queen then only that first hive ship had the keeper,

[Yeade]

I hope you know that my comments weren't a criticism of anyone with contrary views but just observations and of course, personal ramblings.

Oh, no, no. I never thought you were ragging on me or anyone else for having an opinion different from yours. That was my awkward way of saying that despite the number of plotholes in need of patching, I still had a lot of fun watching "The Hive." It was a personal statement.

I've tried to engage with people in the past about apparent character inconsistencies and plot holes, and while it's fun for a time, it does get tricky when one realises that one's adversary is coming from a completely different point of view. There's not much point in arguing when all it really boils down to is likes and dislikes. I'm a big picture person... the nitty gritty while it has its attractions can get become too much like navel gazing.

True. I find that most of these debates end in everyone agreeing to disagree. (This is essentially what Ouroboros and I did the last time we got into a discussion, and I suspect that's what will happen here. We're just not satisfied with agreeing to disagree until we've exchanged dozens of epic posts. ) Despite the unlikelihood that the participants will change their minds in any significant manner, I find this sort of (more or less) civil argument an excellent way to sharpen my reasoning, work out kinks in my theories, and gain new insights.

I really enjoyed this episode... it's all the little character moments that make it happen for me. I found it strangely and unexpectedly moving... [snip] The heart of the story are the characters... how they cope... how they deal with extraordinary situations while battling their inner demons.

I think this is the crux of the matter. "The Hive" included many, separate, little character beeps that treated viewers who tuned in to see their favorite fictional people be themselves while maybe revealing more personal information. If your heart went all aflutter, for example, when Zelenka made his minute-long cameo, you fall in this category.

However, viewers who tuned in to get big plot revelations about the Wraith or... just anything related to the Wraith, really. These viewers were understandably disappointed when, as Ouroboros pointed out, pretty much everything that would've explained why the Wraith acted the way they did happened while the camera wasn't rolling.

[Re: timing of end battle, Sheppard's latest near-death experience] It's still minutes though. We can't really slip much time in there either because the D was getting shot at and we know from previous eps that the Wraith guns drain it's shields very fast.

Minutes is all Sheppard needs though. So long as we're talking more time than 30 seconds.

As for the Deddy's shields getting drained, IIRC, that happened while under fire from up to ten hive ships and their cruiser escorts at much closer range and during a flanking move. That's a biiittt different from the situation at the end of "The Hive."

(There's another mystery. How come neither of the two hives were escorted by any cruisers?)

You've got to remember that people aren't made of wood, they're squishy and can put one arm up over their heads and assume a variety of other poses.

The squishy aspect of human physiology is both good and bad, you know.

I realize that people can contort in many ways, but there are parts of the body that can't be mashed without breaking or crushing something vital. Thinking it over, I suppose the four guys could've helped Teyla through one of those higher gaps face up by supporting her legs if she'd grabbed bars above her to take some of her weight off the bottom bar of the gap until she could bend her lower body out. I would've paid good money to watch this, lol! Teyla being exasperatedly calm while Sheppard and Ford bickered about the best way to go about holding her legs, Ronon and Kanayo getting into a beta staring contest and not being at all helpful.

TEYLA: Gentlemen! Please! If we could continue. Before the Wraith return. <gives each man a pointed little kick in the head>

At any rate, this all depends on whether the gaps are big enough for Teyla to squeeze out of and, after my rewatch, I don't think that's the case. You think otherwise. End of argument.

Ok wait, you're really just willing to give them carte blanche to pull whatever they want out of their asses whenever they want and not call it for what it is, that being lazy sub-amateurish writing.

Within reason, my friend. Within reason. Clearly, your tolerances there are somewhat lower than mine. Okay. Agree to disagree.

Drek like the Hive here only goes down easy when you're not regularly exposed to anything significantly better. As someone coming off Farscape, Firefly, 24, The Shield, 6 feet under, The Sopranos, Lost and now BSG as his typical line-up...

I've watched Firefly (let me add that it hurts for me to listen to the so-called Chinese) and plan to watch BSG. I started Farscape but never managed to make any real progress there. 24 is not exactly a great comparison given the time compression and decompression issues between that show and SGA. Besides, like The Shield, Six Feet Under, and The Sopranos, there are the considerations of intended genre, intended audience, and setting. All I know about Lost is that it includes people in a plane crashing on a remote island somewhere and a polar bear. I guess my taste in entertainment just isn't that great, lol. I can admit that.

Next, Callie, I'm at home for Thanksgiving so don't have access to "The Hive" for yet another rewatch, but I distinctly remember McKay spouting off about jello. After the "you needed it" part, he mocks Ford's goons and their "you'll have to get through us first" speech. "Yeah? Well, I got through you, didn't I? Like a hot knife through jello... Butter?" He also complains about being hungry after going on about butter. I'm sorry I can't remember the exact dialogue, but I'm hoping this will help anyways. (When transcribing the "Rising" audio commentary, I found that once I had an idea of what Wood and Flanigan were saying, it was easier for me to pick out the precise wording.)

Finally, CYBEREAGLE19, you reminded me of something. Are there at least 60 hive ships or 80? I'd always thought the round lower limit was 80 because I have the vague impression that, in "Underground," Grodin or... somebody says there are 20-something hive ships near Atlantis with at least an additional 60 spread around the rest of Pegasus. Hmm... Details, details.


edit: minor rewording, tags

[AutumnDream]

(There's another mystery. How come neither of the two hives were escorted by any cruisers?)

It's like the difference between going to McDonald's and going to a schoolyard fight. The last time, they thought the Ancients might be back in full force so they brought 15 hive ships ready to rock, but this time it was just a quick stop for some food.

I've watched Firefly (let me add that it hurts for me to listen to the so-called Chinese) and plan to watch BSG. I started Farscape but never managed to make any real progress there. 24 is not exactly a great comparison given the time compression and decompression issues between that show and SGA. Besides, like The Shield, Six Feet Under, and The Sopranos, there are the considerations of intended genre, intended audience, and setting. All I know about Lost is that it includes people in a plane crashing on a remote island somewhere and a polar bear. I guess my taste in entertainment just isn't that great, lol. I can admit that.

I can't seem to get into Lost either. I don't know why. I can't even look at Farscape because of the ridiculous looking aliens, and I still haven't checked out BSG. That leaves Atlantis!

Next, Callie, I'm at home for Thanksgiving so don't have access to "The Hive" for yet another rewatch, but I distinctly remember McKay spouting off about jello.

I'm pretty sure I heard something about jello too. He just can't stop thinking about food, can he?

Finally, CYBEREAGLE19, you reminded me of something. Are there at least 60 hive ships or 80? I'd always thought the round lower limit was 80 because I have the vague impression that, in "Underground," Grodin or... somebody says there are 20-something hive ships near Atlantis with at least an additional 60 spread around the rest of Pegasus. Hmm... Details, details.

There's probably like 10,000 that we don't know about. If the Ancient had the whole galaxy, and it's like a Protoss / Zerg relationship, there'd have to be a LOT of hive ships out there.