The Hive (211)

[maxbo]

The implication was clear. The reason why it was so disgusting to her to even dare suggest an Athosian would collaborate is because the Wraith feed on them like livestock. It didn't enter into her comprehension why anyone would possibly serve the Wraith. What she said of Athosians clearly relates and extends to any human. We as an audience were made to feel Bates was a bad guy for suggesting this crazy notion. We later see in The Hive for some bizarre reason humans do indeed serve the Wraith making the disgust of Teyla and Bates made out to be a bad guy pointless in hindsight.

IMO, the implication is clear only if you assume that she meant all humans when she referenced Althosians. I didn't. Of course she believes that humans serving the Wraith is abhorrent and, yes, I'm sure that she believes that all humans should share her disgust, however, I haven't seen anything that supports the premise that she's so naive about human nature that she would dismiss the possibility that some humans would serve the Wraith in an effort to save themselves.

As a representative of her people, she's probably traveled extensively and dealt with so many diverse peoples over the years that she's probably become quite astute about human nature, so, it's not a stretch, IMO, to believe that she would've heard about possible human Wraith servants before the Atlantis group arrived.

I have many complaints about the way TPTB has handled this season - to the point where I may not be a regular viewer in Season 3, but this issue is not one them.

[Wolf Eire]

She clearly didn't know prior to The Hive. It's obviously something she would have made Weir et al aware of and it would not have been such a shock in The Hive to find out humans serve the Wraith. She seems to be vouching for her people under the general assumption that no one who has had extensive contact with the Wraith could ever work with or consider anyone else could ever work with the Wraith.

[maxbo]

Maybe you could refresh my memory because I don't even remember it being revealed on screen to Teyla that those cocooned humans were Wraith servants. I remember Teyla and the others being caught when they tried to release them, her scenes with Ronon and Kanayo (sp?) in the cell, and I remember when Sheppard came to release her and Ronon, but that's it.

So, if you can point out the scene where Teyla appears shocked then I may have a better understanding of your view. Although having said that, even knowing that there are human Wraith servants, it would not be reasonable to assume that cocooned humans on a hive ship would be Wraith servants so I would understand her shock. The odds would work against that assumption. So, even if that information had been shared with Elizabeth, I don't see how that would've changed anything that happened in that episode.

[gooner_diva]

Maybe you could refresh my memory because I don't even remember it being revealed on screen to Teyla that those cocooned humans were Wraith servants.

It wasn't revealed to her on screen. Where did anyone say that? Can we at least agree that it was probably revealed to her sooner or later after they gated back home?

So, even if that information had been shared with Elizabeth, I don't see how that would've changed anything that happened in that episode.

It wouldn't. The point is that Teyla had no such information as in Season 1 she and Halling were acting as though collaborating with the Wraith is something unheard of. And spare me the "they were talking about the Athosians" riff. They were clearly trying to portray in Suspicion how unreasonable Weir and especially Bates were in thinking anyone could be passing information to a race that treats us as nothing more than food. If Teyla knew about such a thing, she would have surely shared this information with the team, which is why Sheppard wouldn't be so shocked in The Hive after discovering Neera was one of them. Clearly The Hive was supposed to be a massive shocker in terms of human-Wraith relations.

[maxbo]

It wasn't revealed to her on screen. Where did anyone say that? Can we at least agree that it was probably revealed to her sooner or later after they gated back home?

Looking back at the post I responded to, no, it didn't specifically mention Teyla - that was my assumption since I was responding to a post about Teyla's perceived naivety in not realizing that there could be human Wraith servants. A mistake on my part, but not grounds for a lynching.

It wouldn't. The point is that Teyla had no such information as in Season 1 she and Halling were acting as though collaborating with the Wraith is something unheard of. And spare me the "they were talking about the Athosians" riff. They were clearly trying to portray in Suspicion how unreasonable Weir and especially Bates were in thinking anyone could be passing information to a race that treats us as nothing more than food. If Teyla knew about such a thing, she would have surely shared this information with the team, which is why Sheppard wouldn't be so shocked in The Hive after discovering Neera was one of them. Clearly The Hive was supposed to be a massive shocker in terms of human-Wraith relations.

Spare you the "they were talking about the Althosians riff"? WTF! If you're not capable of making your point with making a dig, then don't respond to my posts in the future. I love a good discussion, but I have no patience with attacks. I wasn't trying to "riff", I was simply sharing a different point of view - my point of view. You assume that Teyla and Halling meant all humans when they mentioned Althosians, I don't. That's life.

Regarding Elizabeth and Bates in Suspicion, whatever the intention of TPTB, Elizabeth and Bates were the only Atlanteans, IMO, who were behaving in a reasonable manner, granted Bates was portrayed as too gabby for plot purposes, but they were on the right track. They didn't know the Althosians and had every right to be suspicious of them.

As for the supposed shock value of the human Wraith servant revelation, it wasn't a shock to me so TPTB missed the boat on that one. In addition, even if the Atlantis team had been alerted of the human Wraith servant possibility, the first time running into them would still be a shock, especially, under these circumstances, IMO.

[gooner_diva]

Looking back at the post I responded to, no, it didn't specifically mention Teyla - that was my assumption since I was responding to a post about Teyla's perceived naivety in not realizing that there could be human Wraith servants. A mistake on my part, but not grounds for a lynching.

What lynching? I asked you a question and you've answered it.

If you're not capable of making your point with making a dig, then don't respond to my posts in the future. I love a good discussion, but I have no patience with attacks.

What attack? Do you even realise how condescending this sounds? If my post came across as hostile, I apologise as it wasn't intended that way.

[gooner_diva]

Look, here is what I am saying. If Teyla in fact did know of human Wraith sympathisers then she would have informed the expedition. If she had informed the expedition then there would have been no shock over discovering in The Hive that there are Wraith sympathisers. You are getting too pedantic here and missing that point and trying to fill in between the lines where there is nothing. If you honestly came to draw the conclusion from Suspicion that there are in fact Wraith sympathisers and you were not shocked to see this in The Hive then that's a freak coincidence.

If you also consider that it is an utter shock in Condemned that someone collaborates with the Wraith then this again reinforces the fact they have never known of such a thing. Teyla herself is horrified at this arrangement. I forgot to mention this in my initial post that again The Hive sort of ruins the effectivity of this as it is not in fact so unique, granted the relationship is more business than worship in that episode. I think the writers are going on to diminish and contradict things pushed in earlier episodes.

[maxbo]

What lynching? I asked you a question and you've answered it.

What attack? Do you even realise how condescending this sounds? If my post came across as hostile, I apologise as it wasn't intended that way.

Then please accept my apologies. Your question was fine (especially since it pointed out an incorrect assumption I made) and, I enjoyed the rest of your post, it's just that the riff comment rubbed me the wrong way and the lynching comment was added after I saw it.

*sigh* The scary thing is that I stepped back before responding and still misread your intent. Well, no hard feeling on this end. Peace.

[gooner_diva]

Then please accept my apologies. Your question was fine (especially since it pointed out an incorrect assumption I made) and, I enjoyed the rest of your post, it's just that the riff comment rubbed me the wrong way and the lynching comment was added after I saw it.

*sigh* The scary thing is that I stepped back before responding and still misread your intent. Well, no hard feeling on this end. Peace.

Great! *shakes hands*

[Wolf Eire]

Gooner Diva basically reiterated exactly what I was trying to say there. Glad there's no unpleasantness then. So after all that Maxbo do we agree to disagree or do you think I have a point?

[maxbo]

Look, here is what I am saying. If Teyla in fact did know of human Wraith sympathisers then she would have informed the expedition. If she had informed the expedition then there would have been no shock over discovering in The Hive that there are Wraith sympathisers. You are getting too pedantic here and missing that point and trying to fill in between the lines where there is nothing. If you honestly came to draw the conclusion from Suspicion that there are in fact Wraith sympathisers and you were not shocked to see this in The Hive then that's a freak coincidence.

I disagree that if they had been given advance warning that they wouldn't have been shocked about discovering Wraith servants in the Hive. IMO, the set up was such that even if they had known about them, they wouldn't have expected to encounter them cocooned on a hive ship.

Regarding Suspicion, no, I didn't immediately think that there had to be Wraith servants for Teyla and Halling to be so insulted, it's just that based on human nature, there will always be people willing to work with the enemy - if it would benefit them in some way. Especially if that enemy is considered unbeatable. We have too many real life examples to draw upon to illustrate that point.

If you also consider that it is an utter shock in Condemned that someone collaborates with the Wraith then this again reinforces the fact they have never known of such a thing. Teyla herself is horrified at this arrangement. I forgot to mention this in my initial post that again The Hive sort of ruins the effectivity of this as it is not in fact so unique, granted the relationship is more business than worship in that episode. I think the writers are going on to diminish and contradict things pushed in earlier episodes.

See, that just it, I don't think that the SGA team or Teyla is so jaded by the knowledge of Wraith servants that they would just take their existence in stride. Even if they knew about Wraith servants, I would expect them to show the same horror, disgust and yes, sometimes even shock/surprise. Not to diminish any real life horrors, but no matter how many times I hear about some of the horrors that humans inflict on each other, I remain horrified and, yep, usually shocked/surprised (at least initially) - even though I know better. I saw the reactions in Condemned in the same light.

Don't get me started on what the writer's have screwed up for me this season. I only started watching SGA just before the mid-season break and in that short time I've gone from avid fan, to wondering if I'll continue to watch next season. Not good.

[maxbo]

Gooner Diva basically reiterated exactly what I was trying to say there. Glad there's no unpleasantness then. So after all that Maxbo do we agree to disagree or do you think I have a point?

Where's my kumbaya smilie?

So after all that Maxbo do we agree to disagree or do you think I have a point?

Hey, it's not that easy. If you believe that Teyla meant all humans when she mentioned Althosians then you definitely have a point, IMO. Where we disagree, I believe, is that I don't think that their (Teyla and the SGA team) knowledge of Wraith servants would lessen the horror and disgust of actually meeting them.

[gooner_diva]

Even if they knew about Wraith servants, I would expect them to show the same horror, disgust and yes, sometimes even shock/surprise. Not to diminish any real life horrors, but no matter how many times I hear about some of the horrors that humans inflict on each other, I remain horrified and, yep, usually shocked/surprised (at least initially) - even though I know better. I saw the reactions in Condemned in the same light.

Good point. They'd certainly be horrified to see Wraith servants even if they knew they existed, however, I still think they didn't.

Don't get me started on what the writer's have screwed up for me this season.

*sigh* Same here.

[Wolf Eire]

Hey, it's not that easy. If you believe that Teyla meant all humans when she mentioned Althosians then you definitely have a point, IMO. Where we disagree, I believe, is that I don't think that their (Teyla and the SGA team) knowledge of Wraith servants would lessen the horror and disgust of actually meeting them.

True, however don't we have to assume they didn't know given the assumption is generally unless we are told on screen then we have to assume they were not told off screen? The general feel given to me is that they didn't know. In fact I think Sheppard's quick realisation of what was going on and him pretending to be one in The Hive was supposed to be a sharp act of improvisation by our hero.

[Cinephilic TV Addict]

2 stars. It had the potential to be a good episode, and was infinitely better than SG-1, but the second half was quite a disappointment compared to the first.

Nera as a spy was completely obvious.

Ford and Sheppard’s moment before Ford conveniently ran off to surface again in a later episode started well, but ended horribly.

The ending wasn’t good, but was almost good quality. Overall, it could not save the rest of the ep. There was too much plot material for one episode, resulting in scenes not really flowing together.

A disappointing start to the new half-seasons.