Trinity (206)

[watcher652]

Well, I just read thru all the posts. And I agree with all of those who said that it was a matter of trust that was the theme of both plots.

And leave to the scifi fans to wonder if the debris field should actually still be in orbit around the planet!

I don't know where that Teyla/Ronon battered woman stuff came from. Do the people who are of this opinion think that Atlantis is trying to address such an issue here? This is sci fi, not the Hallmark Channel. Not that sci fi can't address this issue. But I don't think that has anything to do with Atlantis, and certainly not with this episode.

Teyla is obviously the leader here. This was her own personal mission. She's the one with the respect and trust of the Atlantis expedition. But it was fought for and earned. Ronon should have been following her lead, not making his own decisions. And if he was planning to take revenge, he should have warned Teyla. He could have seen what she thought of the matter and if she didn't understand, he could have come back on his own and face the consequences on his own. Instead, he dragged Teyla into his personal fight.

That's what Rodney did with John. Something that should have been professional was made personal. When Radek tried to convince Rodney that he was wrong, Rodney had to make it personal with him, too.

People think John has the weight of the Pegasus Galaxy on his shoulders because he woke the Wraith and he had to kill his commanding officer. I think Rodney's shoulders are carrying just as heavy a weight. Now, the Atlantis expedition isn't in Pegasus just to find tech to defend against the known threats in the Milky Way. Now it has to find the tech to fight against the Wraith incursion into the Milky Way. And as head of the scientists, and being the genius that he is, Rodney must feel that it ultimately becomes his responsibility to find the answer.

What was it that Rodney said in Siege 3? Something like, "Because I can't help but think you're trying to determine the point at which I completely snap."

Did I just hear something?

[MasySyma]

I enjoyed the episode.

I've already talked about the battering thing in the Dark Sides thread.

TPTB got this episode right. It makes McKay human and allows us to see his weaknesses, and I loved hearing Weir yell at Rodney from the lower deck. He's my favorite character, but he needed that.

[lily]

I haven't read other people's comments and I don't have time to do so right now, but I thought I could add my 2 cents.
I loved it. One of the best Atlantis episodes ever (and I must add that I love all episodes from season 1 and 2 so far). What an outstanding episode! Absolutely great character development. Because of stuff I had read online, I thought that it was going to be a McKay epi, so I was expecting only McKay's character development, but it was great to see that we got to see a lot about other characters as well. Every single character was amazing in his/her own way. Loved every second of this episode.
10 points out of 10!

[sparklegem]

Two (And it's a *BIG* TWO): We actually got to see emotional payoff happen on one of these shows!...Finally, somebody acknowledges that "bad things happened" that should have real, emotional consequences and shows the characters actually concerned about what those results may be.

I know! Not to say that it never has happened before, “Need” for example, but often with Stargate plot stuff happens and then all the team members reset to go off again next episode. Seeing the human, emotional element brought forward and beautifully done to this extent in an episode was such a thrill! I can’t say how it much it helps bring the universe and characters to life, how it helps me connect with the show and feel that these characters are real.

It was supposed to be an Ancient superweapon…The fact that the Daedalus was able to withstand some of those weapon blasts suggests that its shields are very powerful.

Let me just make this clear. I am fairly certain that during the show it was explained that the weapon, the gun itself, was not an Ancient weapon. It was a weapon of the race of that planet, started with a “D”, and the Ancients, out of desperation, powered it with their unstable super energy source. But the energy supply itself can’t solely determine how deadly the weapon is. So yes, the Asgard shields are very powerful, they were able to withstand what a hive ship could not, but they did not withstand an Ancient weapon.

How was Ronan's teacher exactly a 'traitor'?

That’s a good question. We really are only seeing it from Ronan’s perspective, and he took it upon himself to exact justice because he felt betrayed. I suppose the others who let him go added more validity to it, but I thought that Teyla hadn’t known him long enough to take his judgment as truth.

[SGLAB]

I'm looking forward to seeing the next episode because I want to see some emotional carry over to it from this episode. I thought this was such an intense episode. I was really quite impressed with what tptb did with the characters.

[Ascended Times.2]

I think if they were to open a wormhole back to earth you'd here about it...I think they just attached the ZedPm to the Daedalus and sent a transmission bac oto earth informing them about they're situation, perhaps they whent to earth and back through the whole thing? who the hell knows, it might just be a plothole.
Back to my initial argument, I severely doubt they'd open a wormhole back to earht and you woulnd't at last have a thirty second scebe about they talking over the radio...Judging by the fact that only the Daedalus commander (can't remember name) Knew about the transmission, suggests they didn't open the gate. I'm gonna assume the research took an enourmous amount of time anyway....

[sparklegem]

I don’t know where to start. This was such an incredible episode. The acting was wonderful (thank you Mr. Hewlett!) and added so much to the characters, the situation, and the show. Shoot, I’ve got so much to write that no one’s going to read this. I’d appreciate it if you check out what the different blocks of texts are about, though.

Could someone explain to me the Dr. Vogel/pastries reference?

What about Hermiod?
I would like to know what Hermiod was doing while all this high level physics technology was being explored. Does he kind of abide by the Ancient philosophy that he’s there to manage the Asgard components of the Dedalus and won’t interfere with other things?

General Thoughts
I was on such a ride. The first half made me so happy to be caught up in the science department’s passion and excitement. Sheppard was hilarious “…which leads me back to cool.” And the second half really drew me in with the struggle for realization and the risks and realities.

On second viewing, I was feeling terrible from the beginning. My eyes misted over during the scientists-working-diligently scene. And it was writtern so that some lines just kick you in the gut when you know the outcome, Rodney when asking for Sheppard’s help, “I think I’ve earned it,” and Sheppard telling Elizabeth, “He asked me to trust him.”

Help me out-Implausibility or misinterpretation?
The one part I found implausible was how McKay could brush over what Zelenka was saying. It seemed to me that Zelenka was imparting a fairly crucial concept of how the technology worked, one that McKay didn’t know of judging by “What are you on about?” but accepted as truth and thought he could compensate for. Even as assured and arrogant as he was, wouldn’t McKay want to know the conceptual details of how something works instead of just rushing to power it up? I could see if McKay didn’t believe any of Zelenka’s calculations were correct, but it sounded to me like Zelenka was saying “I put sharp stuff in your clay,” and McKay responding, “I’ll handle it while I’m molding it.” So, if I am interpreting it correctly, then does that show just how far gone McKay was? That this was his version of a breakdown and reality check, maybe?

I really like Caldwell
This episode made me like Caldwell even more. He’s smart, honest, upfront, and calculating.

Rodney
One of the reasons I like Rodney so much is because he is flawed, and therefore realistic. Yes, he’s arrogant and tells everyone he’s the best, but he doesn’t just take the title and laze around in the mess hall. He feels the responsibility the others have put on him to live up to the title (“Well, McKay will come up with something.” “I will try, but despite what you all may think, I am not Superman”). He wanted to unlock this technology, wanted to make Collin’s death meaningful, wanted to prove he could, thought he could. It’s too bad he blocked Zelenka out in the end, and was completely confident in himself that he could finish the Ancient’s work. Hindsight is 20/20. Hopefully this is a step for McKay. It’s impossible for me to speak to his complex motivations, thoughts, and faults, but they were so beautifully illustrated in the show.

Pondering relationships (not romantic)

But other Atlantis members have also put lives at risk because of their "confidence" in their ability… It just seems that while all the characters are flawed - it's Rodney's flaws that seem less "forgiveable".

The interaction between Rodney and the others, especially Elizabeth, was honestly revealing, but it made me a little uneasy too. Elizabeth gave him permission to go ahead and he didn’t intentionally lie to her when he said he could do it, but he ended up being wrong, confidence his downfall, and Elizabeth chewed him out for it as Rodney recognized he was wrong. You heard her yelling. In “Hot Zone” Sheppard undermined Elizabeth’s authority by use of his military rank, purposefully disobeyed her, instead choosing to take action into his own hand that allowed the infected man to reach the mess hall. And in the end he still defended himself and Elizabeth engaged in a short conversation with him, and later insisted he be promoted. Edit: It was brought to my attention that Rodney could have instigated the yelling and not have shown Elizabeth the same remorsefulness as he did Sheppard. That is a possibility. Still, I don't see it starting off anything like Sheppard's sit down, Rodney has shown an inclination to not snap at her as easily as his colleagues, and he'd still have to have been egotistically storming after the event at the outpost. Sheppard and McKay both thought they were doing the right thing, the difference is Sheppard happened to be able to help fix the mess. Perhaps McKay was amplified as a scapegoat (I'm talking in general, not just the chewing out by Elizabeth) as someone who finally screwed something up that couldn’t be sugarcoated because it kind of worked out okay. Perhaps everyone has put so much trust and responsibility on him through the last year (Elizabeth let him go ahead despite Zelenka’s opinion) that the disillusionment that he can’t pull through with everything and that his judgment isn’t always capable caused such a break in trust.

And then there’s the truth of reality that Elizabeth’s relationships with Sheppard and McKay are not equal. She trusts Sheppard’s instincts more, even if he goes behind her back. “She’ll listen to you.” Rodney had to get Sheppard involved for Elizabeth to allow him to go. She feels she needs to protect Rodney from himself. In addition, perhaps Rodney’s arrogance opens the door for Elizabeth to be more aggressive with him.

With my experience all the way back in elementary school, some people have the charisma that allows them to get away with everything, others don’t.

It just struck me that Elizabeth wouldn’t let Rodney go back without any evidence that he couldn’t do it, not having expertise in that field herself and no other opinions, then defaulted to Sheppard’s instincts, and then felt secure enough that she let Rodney go ahead when Zelenka actually did offer an opinion to the contrary.

Food for thought on McKay and Sheppard’s relationship:
McKay comes to Sheppard for help, imparts the situation he’s in and how he feels about it (probably one of the biggest experiences of his life, with such an amazing piece of tech and how it caused the death of a colleague), beats around the bush about Collins, and Sheppard refuses McKay entry into his room, keeping him standing there, off his balance. Not exactly the typical H/C situation. But perhaps there was a mundane reason for no visitors.

Elizabeth's attitude toward military

Liz has a chip on her shoulder when it comes to dealing with Caldwell. His query that maybe Collins made the fatal error was entirely reasonable. Liz instantly jumped down his throat about it, which seemed a bit much, even for her.

Another thing I’ve noticed about Elizabeth this season that I didn’t see last season is a defensive aggressiveness she has toward the military, namely Caldwell and the SGC in Intruder. She also had it with the politician in Condemned but I think that was more her acting on her instincts about his integrity. I’m not sure if she’s cynical towards them or maybe a little insecure, but some things that caught my attention in Trinity were towards Caldwell “Are you looking for a scapegoat?” “Isn’t the Dedalus about to head back to earth?” In Lost City Daniel did imply that her past history with the military wasn’t amiable or that she didn’t think highly of them. Southern Red brings up a good point though that she was concerned for the harmful potential of the energy source.

I’m pleased to see that Elizabeth has faults too, even though I’m not fond of them.

Zelenka
I love Zelenka. I wish he was in the scripts as much as possible. He really does have a saintly demeanor to put up with McKay like that. He's smart and a great character.

Teyla and Ronan plot
I’ve got less to say about the B plot, but I really liked it. I liked how Teyla presented herself as a practiced diplomat and strong, responsible leader when it comes to the Athosians. “My people depend on me.” Her interaction with Ronan is definitely interesting, I think in part because Ronan can understand what she’s been through under the Wraith like no one on Atlantis can. I couldn’t help but think of Teal’c asking Jonas, “Are you suggesting an alien conspiracy?”

[Madeleine]

I am sick of people saying .....

I don't care if you're shocked .....

I don't have to justify my opinions to anyone, least of all you.

Okay, that tears it. I'm saying something.

If I wrote these words, or something like them, much less did so repeatedly, I'd get rubbed with butter and herbs, roasted over a fire then eaten by Gateworld's mods.

But.....



Stevie Wonder could see what's going on here. I don't need to elaborate.

Wait! What's that I smell? Butter? Herbs? Uh oh!

If you disagree with anything that was in that post, then feel free to argue the point.

There's nothing wrong with "I don't have to justify my opinions" (especially since it was followed with that lovely quip about the balloon animals).

There's nothing wrong with "I don't care if you're shocked that I can't see chemistry between Shep and Weir." (The entire sentence matters, not just odd words that can be picked out). It was in direct reply to someone expressing amazement that people exist who don't see S/W. Reasonable enough.

I do think "I am sick of people saying it'd be unrealistic" is rather aggressive, but I'm very sorry to say that it just isn't moddable. You see, rather than leaving it at that (which would have made that sentence out of line) the poster went on to argue why the alternative that was being proposed was also unrealistic. Which makes it part of a Discussion. Anyone who disagrees can then go on to bolster the first PoV or deconstruct the second, it's all okay.

This post is not to be replied to by anyone, except by PM. I'd like the thread to stay on-topic. Thanks.

[ToasterOnFire]

Could someone explain to me the Dr. Vogel/pastries reference?

Well, I think this is our first and probably only reference to Dr. Vogel, so I wouldn't pay too much attention to that character. Rodney was noting how Shep's face lit up when he realized the device could be used as a weapon, much like this Dr. Vogel apparently lights up when around pastries. Dr. Vogel must be very, very fond of pastries.

And Atlantis now has pastries? My my, aren't they living the posh life?

[Quinn Mallory]

Good episode. Great character development of McKay (and relationship to Weir and Sheppard) and also Ronan.

My biggest complain (and i'll probably just mention the complain since it's easier to write that) is the timing of the A and B plots. From the B plot (the Ronan story), they didn't take that much time (as little as two days and perhaps 3-4 at most) there. The A plot is supposed to be matched up almost simultaneously and I highly doubt it take McKay and his team just half a day to figure out how to work everything much less only one night for Weir to change her mind.

So it seems like that the A plot spanned over 1 month (and that's already quite short) while the B plot is at most a week. They should have Ronan go visit a few more survivor of his planet or Teyla saying something to the effect of they having to go make more trades elsewhere (did she say anything like that?).

Other than that, I love Zelenka and McKay. The interaction of Weir and Caldwell was also interesting.

For the shippers out there, I think there is something brewing between Weir and none other than Zelenka. Am I the only one who feels that way?

[the dancer of spaz]

I haven't read through this thread yet, because I don't want to feel like I'm stealing anyone else's thoughts/feelings/rants. So, here are my thoughts:

I thought it was a VERY good episode. It was interesting to see how the team reacted to McKay's behavior. It was ALSO interesting to see how willing he was to fly off the handle at them. I liked the idea that it'll take a while for McKay to mend those relationships, but that the friendships aren't TOTALLY demolished. McKay's a good man, but it's nice to see him fall from his self-appointed pedastal sometimes. And, as always, I love David Hewlett.

There were some great McKay/Shep and Weir/Shep moments (as always). Pileggi was great as usual. Zelenka is SOOOO endearing. I was never too gung-ho about Zelenka before, but this episode really made me appreciate him. He's much cuter than I gave him credit.

I like how Elizabeth said that she sometimes has to protect Rodney from himself. Sometimes she has great intuition and it's completely overlooked by the others.

The last scene was pretty cool. In a short amount of time, you saw the silent tension between Ronon and Teyla and the overwhelmingly LOUD tension between Rodney and Elizabeth. I don't think I say this often enough, but I like the fact that Elizabeth has an odd (friend)ship with Rodney. She was basically yelling at him as a commander AND as a friend. Shep wasn't the only one who was violated here. Also, the fact that no words were expressed between Ronon and Teyla added to the drama of those final moments.

Overall, I'd give the ep an 8.

Now... *sigh* The B Plot of the episode.

Disclaimer: There be a bit of a mighty rant ahead. Onward, if ye be willing.

OK. I can't help but think that TPTB were not feeling the Shep/Teyla web they'd weaved, and are now forcing the Teyla/Ronon angle HARD in an effort to provide some ambiguous UST between John/Elizabeth a la Jack/Sam. Meanwhile, I'll try to ignore the fact that Teyla and John

Spoiler:

supposedly kiss later on this season.

Besides the fact that TPTB all but PROMISED that they would have no ship in this series, I would think they'd have learned from their "mistakes." Note: I use this term rather loosely.

I'm a Sam/Jack shipper; I'm beginning to see more and more Shweir with each passing Friday; and I admit I DID think that Teyla/Ronon looked kinda good together last night. That being said, there is one unifying truth that transcends both series: Ship divides. It somehow becomes a crutch for the development of a character. It pits fans against each other. While I don't think Atlantis will reach the scale of SG-1 in terms of division, the potential still exists.

Ship also adds drama, which is nice. It's not always necessary, but when it's done a certain way, I think it's possible for a MAJORITY of the fans to buy it, rather than a vocal faction (or half) of the fandom. Exhibit 1: Aeryn Sun and John Crichton. I don't think I've read of a fan who didn't like it. And, if those fans are out there, they're certainly MUCH quieter about it than the others. Did that series' PTB luck out in that instance? Perhaps.

Anyway, back to Teyla and Ronon. Teyla hasn't gotten a chance to truly prove herself to the other main characters (or to many fans, apparently). Personally, I like her. And I think Luttrell did a dang good job in this ep. Nevertheless, she's NOT reached the same stature of Shep, McKay, Weir, or even Zelenka and Beckett - for whatever reasons. I'm sure many can name quite a few.

Enter Ronon. A new character. A new plot. A new background. A new angle. Can either character afford even a suggestion of "ship" at this time? I don't think so. Season FOUR on the other hand...

Now, not only must this supposed interest be attached to their character development, but their dirty, little secret will also accentuate the fact that they're outsiders. They're not like "the others," and their moral decisions will evidently diverge from the others' in the long run. The fact that TEYLA suggested such a course of action (i.e. lying) makes me wonder if this won't come back and bite her later on. Not cool. She needs to tell someone. No one and nothing - not even her fledgling friendship with Ronon - is worth breaking the trust of Elizabeth, John and the others. Again, I don't think she can afford that kind of damage.

/rant

On a more positive note: I'm really diggin' the Stargate franchise's use of villages. Knowing that it's all on one stage makes it even cooler.

[LoveYouBaby]

Nice episode,the Ronan Dex story was alright, I liked the ending to that scene where Teyla threatens Ronan to never to abuse their friendship ever again, just to set some sort of personal vendetta.

The main story that I was really interested was the unfinished technology. McKay... poor guy, his ego gets the best of him at times and in this case. It went to the extreme.

The technology would have been a great asset for every planet, and after everything we've seen, McKay seems like he still hasn't learnt his lesson, he was more worried about his rep than the friendships he has made. Wish we could have seen more of the argument between McKay and Weir.

This episode was fantastic, 9.5/10, the effects, the main storyline was good, it was at a steady pace. It was a shame to see one of the scientist died and that another Stargate went to waste.

[watcher652]

Sparklegem, you made a lot of wonderful comments. I want to focus on this one.

Pondering relationships (not romantic)
The interaction between Rodney and the others, especially Elizabeth, was honestly revealing, but it made me a little uneasy too. Elizabeth gave him permission to go ahead and he didn’t intentionally lie to her when he said he could do it, but he ended up being wrong, confidence his downfall, and Elizabeth chewed him out for it as Rodney recognized he was wrong. You heard her yelling. In “Hot Zone” Sheppard undermined Elizabeth’s authority by use of his military rank, purposefully disobeyed her, instead choosing to take action into his own hand that allowed the infected man to reach the mess hall. And in the end he still defended himself and Elizabeth engaged in a short conversation with him, and later insisted he be promoted. Edit: It was brought to my attention that Rodney could have instigated the yelling and not have shown Elizabeth the same remorsefulness as he did Sheppard. That is a possibility. Still, I don't see it starting off anything like Sheppard's sit down, Rodney has shown an inclination to not snap at her as easily as his colleagues, and he'd still have to have been egotistically storming after the event at the outpost. Sheppard and McKay both thought they were doing the right thing, the difference is Sheppard happened to be able to help fix the mess. Perhaps McKay was amplified as a scapegoat (I'm talking in general, not just the chewing out by Elizabeth) as someone who finally screwed something up that couldn’t be sugarcoated because it kind of worked out okay. Perhaps everyone has put so much trust and responsibility on him through the last year (Elizabeth let him go ahead despite Zelenka’s opinion) that the disillusionment that he can’t pull through with everything and that his judgment isn’t always capable caused such a break in trust.

And then there’s the truth of reality that Elizabeth’s relationships with Sheppard and McKay are not equal. She trusts Sheppard’s instincts more, even if he goes behind her back. “She’ll listen to you.” Rodney had to get Sheppard involved for Elizabeth to allow him to go. She feels she needs to protect Rodney from himself. In addition, perhaps Rodney’s arrogance opens the door for Elizabeth to be more aggressive with him.

With my experience all the way back in elementary school, some people have the charisma that allows them to get away with everything, others don’t.

It just struck me that Elizabeth wouldn’t let Rodney go back without any evidence that he couldn’t do it, not having expertise in that field herself and no other opinions, then defaulted to Sheppard’s instincts, and then felt secure enough that she let Rodney go ahead when Zelenka actually did offer an opinion to the contrary.

Excellent observation! I also think Elizabeth treats Rodney differently than John. And Rodney knows it. That's why he got John to speak up for him.

I was a little shocked that Elizabeth yelled at Rodney where people could hear her. I don't think Rodney started it, the scene would have been shot differently. Rodney's posture was not confrontational at all.

Maybe Elizabeth felt yelling at Rodney was the only way she could show her feelings about the incident in a way that Rodney would understand. Rodney yells at his team. He knows he can do it because he's the boss. Elizabeth had to show Rodney that ultimately, she's the boss. She could have lost both her chief science advisor and her head of military. With John in Hot Zone, she took a different approach because she knows John is a different kind of person.

You make a great point. Rodney didn't deliberately lie or disobey Elizabeth. He honestly thought he was right and could do the job. Yet Elizabeth seems to be verbally punishing Rodney in a much harsher way than she did with John in Hot Zone. John also thought he was right, but he deliberately disobeyed Elizabeth. Yet his tongue lashing was less severe and Elizabeth ultimately brushed it off with the SGC and still insisted that John be promoted.

Like I said in my own post (if you could read through it all!), Elizabeth could have ordered Rodney to stop when Radek presented her with his findings. There was no pressing timetable to meet. If Elizabeth had insisted strongly enough, Rodney would have stopped. He has never before disobeyed Elizabeth or talked back at her. Rodney has always shown her respect. And while he yelled at John, insisting that he could do the job, Rodney has never disobeyed John either. When John insisted in stopping the test, Rodney tried to halt the reaction but discovered he couldn't.

Actually, now that I think about it, Elizabeth didn't show Radek much respect, did she? Why didn't she insist that Rodney come back and at least look at Radek's findings? From day one, I felt that Radek has had Elizabeth up on a pedestal. Maybe this will show Radek that Elizabeth is human.

Elizabeth was wrong to let Rodney go as far as he did. She does know Rodney. And who will yell at Elizabeth when she's wrong?

[LoveYouBaby]

The President.

Weir and Sheppard are the leaders, and they have a mutual understanding for one another. But McKay is just a scientist that's so full of himself that he needs a verbal lashing every now and again but even then, he doesn't take it seriously.

I agree with what watcher652 said about Radek, he sees Weir as the shining star, maybe it's because the "Governess" of Atlantis is a civilian and not military.

[watcher652]

Weir and Sheppard are the leaders, and they have a mutual understanding for one another. But McKay is just a scientist that's so full of himself that he needs a verbal lashing every now and again but even then, he doesn't take it seriously.

I don't think you're correct here. Rodney is NOT "just a scientist." Elizabeth is the head of the multi-national Atlantis expedition. Rodney, John and Carson all report directly to her. Since this is ultimately a science expedition, if for whatever reason Elizabeth is incapacitated, I think Rodney would be in charge. Unless the situation called for a military action, which may mean John would be in charge, like Everett took over from Elizabeth during the Siege. Or unless the provision has been made that all three share in the duties until someone could be found to replace Elizabeth or Elizabeth herself is back in her position.

Rodney would take any verbal lashing from Elizabeth or John very seriously. He's never disappointed Elizabeth or John before. Didn't you see the episode? Didn't you see how much he wanted to apologize to John for letting him down? It mattered to him more than apologizing to Elizabeth because he personally asked John to trust him.

Rodney has always been the Answer Man, coming up with a solution that has saved the expedition time and time again. This is the first time he's been wrong. When he saves the day, he does so in a big way. When he doesn't, we see what a major disaster that turned out to be. This is the first time his genius has let him down.

Throughout all the episodes, Rodney has shown an unexpected braveness and an unwavering loyalty to his team. He may grouse about it and it takes him longer to work up the courage, but ultimately he does the right thing. He constantly puts himself in danger by being on the first contact team.

I don't think Rodney is "just a scientist." Not at all.