Trinity (206)

[unowhoandwhy]

As obvious as it was that McKay was being irrational, Sheppard should have stopped him like he promised Weir. That is the biggest plot hole in this story.

I completely agree with you, although the ending wouldn’t have been nearly as interesting (and wouldn’t have that big, beautiful kaboom, ). As someone who has suffered from feeling responsible in some way for a colleague’s death, Shep should have at least considered the fact that Rodney was trying to make Collins’ death have some sort of meaning and wasn’t nearly as certain about his theory as he pretended. I am not saying that I expect Shep to be able to diagnose something like that, but he should have done a better job of looking at things objectively because he knows Rodney is completely incapable of that. We all know Rodney lacks the ability to self-censor and look at his own wild thoughts objectively.



Shame on Shep for letting Rodney go through with it and bigger shame on Weir for not standing her ground. As to Rodney’s public dressing-down, I had this to say on another forum:



Although I do enjoy seeing Rodney get lambasted for screwing up (again... in a huge way, I mean who thought he would blow up 5/6 of a whole SOLAR SYSTEM??!!), I think that it was highly unprofessional and completely out of character for Weir to do it in such a public place. That was just wrong in so many ways. It was funny, don't mistake my appreciation of the moment, but dressing Rodney down like that where everyone could hear was wrong in a lot of ways. It should have been done in private where no one else could hear.



Since Elizabeth allowed Rodney to continue, even against her own judgment and the word of Zalenka (who might not be AS smart as Rodney, but is pretty frakkin smart and more level-headed!), she shouldn't have been surprised when things went so badly wrong. And she should definitely take a good portion of the blame. She even said that Rodney had to be saved from himself and it is her responsibility as leader of the expedition to do just that!

It's a bad leadership practice to scream at your subordinates in the hearing of others. Even when they deserve to be yelled at, as Rodney did. The only place you can get away with that without repercussions is in the military, where unquestioning obedience and an acceptance of loud, public dressing-downs is either drilled or beaten into you from the very beginning.

I really wanted the Elizabeth's character to be the strong, intelligent and very capable diplomat they said she was, but I keep getting disappointed. The writers don't seem to know how to write real, strong female characters (look at how one-dimensional and wooden they made Teyla look for the first season and she is only now growing less one-dimensional when she is written to interact with Ronon) and they seem to have relegated what should have been a great character into the role of in ineffectual leader. Her own second-in-command not only argues with (almost) her every decision, he occasionally defies her orders and seems to suffer no consequences!

It's not that I don't like the character or the actress, I am just sick of the SG writers having NO idea what a strong female leader should be like. It is very frustrating!!!

[John Preston]

It goes a little something like this--

McKay :: "Okay, so the Ancients, the people who /made time travel devices and the stargates/ were unable to use this device safely. That doesn't matter! I CAN! Sure I don't understand how to use everything that the Ancients have made, and I sure as heck can't make my own Stargate...but that's not necessary! I can do what they couldn't!"
Weir :: "Sure thing Rodney! Have at it!"
Sheppard :: "I be watching you carefully. Yessss my precious."
Zelenka :: "EVERYONE! McKay is wrong! If he does this there is going to be this massive explosion! All of this and this and this and this!"
McKay :: "LIAR! JEEAALLOOUUUSSS! I can do it!"
Weir :: "Alright, so Zelenka doesn't matter. We can /ignore that he just warned us all/. We can /ignore that you're acting irrationally/. Go ahead and blow up the solar system!"
McKay :: "WOOO HOOOO"
Sheppard :: "Yes! Go ahead and do it even though Zelenka just told us to not do it and you're acting unstable!"

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

I felt that (Rodney's) portrayal in Trinity was more or less on target. I said it before- it isn't a very pretty picture we get of him, but it reads, to me, as being brutally honest.

McKay CAN get carried away. He DOES get obsessed with science. He DOES think he's smarter than everyone else... because 90% of the time, he is. And I think that, in the beginning, he was being altruistic. Or, at least, part of his motivations were altruistic: he wanted to find out what went wrong so that he could know why Collins had died...

Yup, brutaly honest, but there's always some wonderful redeeming quality that just makes a saint out of this a$$hole of a soul. Rodney not only felt bad about Collin's death, but defended the man's honor as a brilliant scientist before Caldwell's suggestion that Collins made a fatal error. For all of Rodney's apparent fear of Zelenka's mind(I think that's why he puts him down so much) he does recognize his peers as equals... well... sorta... sometimes... okay, after they're dead...

I've seen people complaining that Weir caved too easily to Shep's and Caldwell's demands. But isn't it possible that she, herself, was interested in McKay's experiment? And that it was only the knowledge of the severe danger it posed that made her hold off? Maybe that's why "convincing" her was so easy- it was something she wanted done, anyway, and in this case she was willing to allow her curiosity to overcome her common sense.

I do agree that she should have listened to Radek. She should have forced them to shut down the project right then and there. <snip> I got a sense of urgency to this whole thing, but was there an actual REASON for it?

I think that there was a reason, though I don't fully understand the politics of it: Possession. For some strange reason it seemed that Weir's people getting the thing to work would be like, nine tenths of the law of ownership or something.

Caldwell had already communicated with Earth about the powersource/weapon and he was confident that the Pentagon would take over the site. Someone else will have to clue me in to how MacKay getting it up and running would keep the Pentagon from taking it over....

Also, there must be some pressure to get a permanent defensive power against the Wraith, since it is only a matter of time before their ruse(Seige3) is uncovered by the Wraith.

Aaaand...(I never shut up ) To tie Weir's actions (inactions?) to the ep title, Trinity: the show was based on actual events that took place here in the Real World.

The war in Europe - which front had given the impetus to the Manhattan Project in the first place - was over. The war was still raging in the Pacific, and I won't argue the merits of ending that theater early, saving lives, etc, but it did give pause to some of the people on the project. A major reason for continuing was military ambition and scientific obsession, IMO.

The day of the(actual, Real Life) test, the scientists were worried about various aspects of the test, including whether or not the atmosphere would ignite . The metereologist played the part of Zelenka in the real Trinity situation, warning the powers that be that the weather was all wrong for the test. The test went ahead in spite of all these factors.

So, right or wrong, Weir is at least consistent with what the leaders of the real life Trinity test chose to do. I'm pretty sure that was the point.

[starfox]

Okay, so I re-watched this episode last night, and after watching all six episodes of the season in a row, I got something else out of it.

McKay's sense of urgency. Look at what's happened so far this season.
The Siege III: Everyone's rushing to prevent imminent destruction. Lots of people die. McKay saves the day by making the city disappear.
Intruder: The higher-ups get back from a nice stay on Earth, just to be nearly irradiated by a Wraith AI virus.
Runner: McKay is forced to shoot Ford, has Ford threaten to kill him, and is strung up a tree.
Duet: McKay gets another consciousness in his head, and has to save the day before Cadman fades into nothingness. Oh yeah, and he has a seizure.
Condemned: Shot down and held hostage by a bunch of convicts led by a murderer, McKay is forced to repair a damaged and nearly irrepairable jumper before his team is killed by their captors.

So out of the five episodes previous to this one, McKay has a near-death experience in every single one, and is rushing against time to save the day in four of the five. In "Siege", "Duet", and "Condemned", it's McKay who ends up saving the day, and you might as well throw "Intruder" into that list, too, because Sheppard couldn't have saved them all if McKay beamed him out of the virus-ridden F-302.
Plus, you have the first two parts of "The Siege", where McKay and Zelenka were both hopped up on stimulants building bombs and trying to fix the chair to remote-control the jumpers.

I think it's fair to say that Dr. Rodney McKay is just a little bit stressed right now. He's beginning to get used to having the weight of Atlantis on his shoulders.
And then Collins dies.
As someone said earlier in the thread, did I just hear a "snap"?

McKay has been running on a "we need this done yesterday" schedule since before the siege began, and I think it's fair to say that Elizabeth has, too, as well as the rest of the team. He's not used to having time to back up and analyze data anymore. Not saying that this justifies his actions, just looking for an explanation. He's been running on top speed too long, and I think that Collins' death, one he considered himself directly responsible for, pushed him over the edge of logic.

As for Elizabeth's urgency.
She already had to fight to keep John as Atlantis' military commander, and I'm guessing that with the Wraith threat, a higher military presence on the base was suggested. And then there's Caldwell, who I'm guessing just flat-out doesn't like her. Her position is being threatened, and she makes a move to keep power. It's a stupid move, but she felt that she could trust Rodney and John, and maybe in another circumstance she could have, just not this one.

Back to Rodney again. He'd been screwing up before this. Intruder: He forgets the F-302s, then forgets the rouge F-302. I know that it's easy to forget the little things, but it's a screw up nonetheless.
Duet: Makes mistakes in his calculations and causes a big, sparky mess. Zelenka blames it on the stress of having Cadman in his head, but I'm tempted to just say stress, period.
Then we have "Condemned", which while not a major McKay screw-up, is close enough to the Genii hostage situation in "The Brotherhood" that it should have required a session or two with Heightmeyer. I know it's a TV show, but jeez, people, ya think someone would have noticed that this is a bit more than the average human being can take.

So yeah, if you look at previous eps, there was a definite lead-up to this one.


Now, because I should have said this the first time I watched this ep, and I didn't:
I love smart Sheppard in this episode. He assists McKay just as well as a member of the science team would have, possibly better because he is the only one besides Zelenka saying that aborting might be a good idea the first time they test the weapon. I also love that he's the voice of caution in the briefing with Elizabeth and Caldwell, and he tells McKay to abort the second time they test it. See, Shep has a sense of caution. Plus, the understanding of the scientific side needed to assist in the testing adds a bit of insight into his character. We knew that he was smart (the Mensa thing from a Season 1 ep), now we know that he can use that intelligence in a practical way. McKay may get whole episodes to explore his character, but Sheppard's little scenes are just as telling. Joe Flanigan did a great job in this one, because even without a large amount of dialouge he still manages to carry across a vibe of "I am smart, you know."

Overall, yeah the whole testing in the time it took Teyla and Ronon to do a trade mission and murder a guy was rather unbelievable, but I get why they felt rushed, and I chalk the rest of the level of rush to hasty writing.

And that was much longer than I originally intended. *looks at post* Yipes.

[prion]

McKay's bound to crash eventually, well, he did, in "Trinity." Not quite a breakdown by our normal TV standards but that's as close as he'll get, I think. He's been basically THE person to go to to save everyone's butts, and in season 2, as someone pointed out, he's had a bad time - people try to kill him, friends try to kill him, marines inhabit his body. bad time all around.



I think it's fair to say that Dr. Rodney McKay is just a little bit stressed right now. He's beginning to get used to having the weight of Atlantis on his shoulders.
And then Collins dies.
As someone said earlier in the thread, did I just hear a "snap"?

Heh, so did he!

As for Elizabeth's urgency.
She already had to fight to keep John as Atlantis' military commander, and I'm guessing that with the Wraith threat, a higher military presence on the base was suggested. And then there's Caldwell, who I'm guessing just flat-out doesn't like her. Her position is being threatened, and she makes a move to keep power. It's a stupid move, but she felt that she could trust Rodney and John, and maybe in another circumstance she could have, just not this one.

I saw the episode like an onion, peeling back layers and watching trust being manipulated and lost by all the characters... Rodney asks John to trust him, in turn John asks Weir to trust him, and Teyla trusts Ronon and he uses her to kill someone. Just a bad time all around for everyone, but a good episode.

This seems to be a love it or hate it episode, judging from reaction on various lists.

But, I loved it. They've been working on Rodney's 'breakdown' since "Seige III," if you really look at it.

[Furling God]

I saw the episode like an onion, peeling back layers and watching trust being manipulated and lost by all the characters... Rodney asks John to trust him, in turn John asks Weir to trust him, and Teyla trusts Ronon and he uses her to kill someone. Just a bad time all around for everyone, but a good episode.
...
But, I loved it. They've been working on Rodney's 'breakdown' since "Seige III," if you really look at it.

Very true. But I still don't understand the artistic intention of the writers by peeling back layers of trust.

[watcher652]

Okay, so I re-watched this episode last night, and after watching all six episodes of the season in a row, I got something else out of it.

McKay's sense of urgency. Look at what's happened so far this season.
The Siege III: Everyone's rushing to prevent imminent destruction. Lots of people die. McKay saves the day by making the city disappear.
Intruder: The higher-ups get back from a nice stay on Earth, just to be nearly irradiated by a Wraith AI virus.
Runner: McKay is forced to shoot Ford, has Ford threaten to kill him, and is strung up a tree.
Duet: McKay gets another consciousness in his head, and has to save the day before Cadman fades into nothingness. Oh yeah, and he has a seizure.
Condemned: Shot down and held hostage by a bunch of convicts led by a murderer, McKay is forced to repair a damaged and nearly irrepairable jumper before his team is killed by their captors.

So out of the five episodes previous to this one, McKay has a near-death experience in every single one, and is rushing against time to save the day in four of the five. In "Siege", "Duet", and "Condemned", it's McKay who ends up saving the day, and you might as well throw "Intruder" into that list, too, because Sheppard couldn't have saved them all if McKay beamed him out of the virus-ridden F-302.
Plus, you have the first two parts of "The Siege", where McKay and Zelenka were both hopped up on stimulants building bombs and trying to fix the chair to remote-control the jumpers.

I think it's fair to say that Dr. Rodney McKay is just a little bit stressed right now. He's beginning to get used to having the weight of Atlantis on his shoulders.
And then Collins dies.
As someone said earlier in the thread, did I just hear a "snap"?

Nice to know somebody reads my posts! Snap, indeed!

This was my point exactly. Rodney has been going full tilt since he arrived on Atlantis. Not knowing who exactly died in The Siege, we've seen more scientists die in Atlantis than military personnel. Two scientists died on the Daedalus and didn't even make it to the city.

This is a science expedition. While Elizabeth is in charge overall, she's really there to support the scientists in their mission. She's there so it isn't a military operation. John is in charge of the military contingent, but they're really in Atlantis to support the scientists. Even Carson's medical unit is there mainly to keep the scientists healthy. Carson's other work on the Wraith genetics puts him in the science category.

So being in charge of the scientists is not an easy thing. The whole reason behind the expedition is for the science. Rodney being in charge of the scientists has the heaviest burden on his shoulders.

And he not just in charge of the administration of the science team. No, he goes out on missions and gets subjected to life threatening situations. He has to come up with brilliant solutions to save lives and even the city itself.

It's no wonder he didn't stop to consider Radek's data. He's so used to having to get things done yesterday that he didn't even consider he should take the time to look it over. He was so obsessed in this miracle power source that could solve all their problems, that he didn't analyze the whole situation. And remember what he said to John on their second trip back to the planet while they were setting up the last test? "I won't let you down." It was a personal promise between two people. And Rodney failed big time on his side.

But, I really blame Elizabeth for this. Taking John's recommendation, which had no scientific backing, just a personal belief in Rodney, was foolish. But Rodney has been the Answer Man so many times. And John's gut feelings have been right so many times. So I give Elizabeth that. But when Radek gave her his data and said there was a problem, she should have stopped it right there. She is ultimately in charge and no matter what Rodney said, she should have over ruled him. She said earlier that there are times when she has to protect Rodney from himself. Why did she chose this time not to do that? Why did she choose not to trust herself?

And Elizabeth had the bad judgement to yell at Rodney where others could hear. Really, what kind of manager does that make her? Was some of that anger for herself? Didn't she know how much Rodney would be hurting already from his own guilt? She heard how he felt about Collins. She knows how he must feel about all the others.

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

But, I really blame Elizabeth for this. Taking John's recommendation, which had no scientific backing, just a personal belief in Rodney, was foolish. But Rodney has been the Answer Man so many times. And John's gut feelings have been right so many times. So I give Elizabeth that. But when Radek gave her his data and said there was a problem, she should have stopped it right there. She is ultimately in charge and no matter what Rodney said, she should have over ruled him. She said earlier that there are times when she has to protect Rodney from himself. Why did she chose this time not to do that? Why did she choose not to trust herself?

Again, I can't help but make the comparison to Real Life leaders and the decisions they make despite strong warnings not to proceed along a certain path. If Rodney had been correct and the project had succeeded Weir would be remembered for her gutsy decision to back Rodney.

And Elizabeth had the bad judgement to yell at Rodney where others could hear. Really, what kind of manager does that make her? Was some of that anger for herself? Didn't she know how much Rodney would be hurting already from his own guilt? She heard how he felt about Collins. She knows how he must feel about all the others.

I agree with an earlier post that suggested that this was probably done for artistic reasons, to bring the A and B plotlines together. I simply call it artistic license on the writer's/director's part and cut the actor some slack.

In my imagination I see this scene as having started out quietly between Weir and Rodney and then escalating as Rodney's arrogance got the better of Liz and she blew her top. It happens to the very best of us.

As for hurting Rodney's feelings, I don't see the need to coddle the man. He just destroyed part of a galaxy and what is he doing with Weir? He's argueing the finer points of his actions - "probably 5/6 of a galaxy rather than 3/4, and it's not an exact science and bla bla bla." He isn't being very contrite in this scene, IMO.

[Sabre]

"probably 5/6 of a galaxy rather than 3/4, and it's not an exact science and bla bla bla." He isn't being very contrite in this scene, IMO.

Fortunately it wasn't 5/6 of the galaxy, "just" a solar system

Now that nobody is listening to us, let me tell you that I quite love this analysis of behaviours (as last week's debate about the penal island) much more than the weapons/technology/whydon'twenukethegenii discussions. I wanted to thank all of you for this, but don't tell the others, eh?

Sabre

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

Fortunately it wasn't 5/6 of the galaxy, "just" a solar system

D'OH! Sorry, but, you know... galaxy, solar system, there's a difference?

Now that nobody is listening to us, let me tell you that I quite love this analysis of behaviours (as last week's debate about the penal island) much more than the weapons/technology/whydon'twenukethegenii discussions. I wanted to thank all of you for this, but don't tell the others, eh?

Sabre

Methinks it's the frustrated author in us that makes us dig so deeply. Even the remarks about Teyla being a battered woman - right or wrong - just screams for the need to be written into a fic. For some, Teyla could be the new battered Danny.

[prion]

Very true. But I still don't understand the artistic intention of the writers by peeling back layers of trust.

To make the show a little darker, but it'll only work if they bring back that trust.

[Avatar28]

Also in regards to Weir yelling at Rodney where others could hear, maybe she didn't realize it. After all, they were in the office with the door closed. She probably didn't think the sound would have carried outside to as far away as Teyla and Dex were.

[prion]

And Elizabeth had the bad judgement to yell at Rodney where others could hear. Really, what kind of manager does that make her? Was some of that anger for herself? Didn't she know how much Rodney would be hurting already from his own guilt? She heard how he felt about Collins. She knows how he must feel about all the others.

Of course she was pissed at herself: Rodney talked Sheppard into the mess, in turn, he talked her into the mess, and she KNEW that Caldwell was going to press TPTB back on earth to proceed with experiments and thus, that could mean bringing in more people of the management type that could ultimately threaten who controls Atlantis. She was caught in one of those crappy dilemmas where you're damned if you, damned if you don't.

As for the guilt... yes, he felt guilty about it. I'm sure Sheppard felt guilty about those who have died because of his orders as well, but it's part of the job of exploration, which is why if things get nasty, she sends them off to Heightmeyer (i.e., "Duet").

However, I think it's far worse for Rodney to know that Collins would have died in vain (remember his conversation at Shep's door). That would be worse for him, and that was no doubt part of his reasoning to continue plus the incredible science they could achieve if the device had worked. I mean, think back to things Rodney has said, such as in "Before I sleep", saying how he wondered how he would be remembered if he died, and now he knew. He doesn't want his life to have no meaning after he's gone, and I think he applies that thinking to those under him as well.

I saw this episode as basically Rodney's 'breakdown' from all the stress he's been under since arriving at Atlantis, and hopefully now, he can rebuild himself.

I'd love to have a psychiatrist watch all of the SGAs and really analyze Rodney. It could be an interesting book

[Night Spring]

and what is he doing with Weir? He's argueing the finer points of his actions - "probably 5/6 of a galaxy rather than 3/4, and it's not an exact science and bla bla bla." He isn't being very contrite in this scene, IMO.

Um... Anyone notice that 5/6 (83.33%) is BIGGER than 3/4 (75%)?

So McKay is NOT making excuses; he's NOT saying, "Hey, it's all right because I blew up less of the solar system than you think." He's just insiting on being painfully accurate -- one could even say he's admitting that he made an even bigger mess than Weir thinks.

This is, of course, assuming that the writers know their math. (which, I admit, could be questionable...)

[Daniel's_twin]

I refuse to believe that TPTB that make Rodney so smart don't know basic fractions, so it's probably the former.