The Defiant One (112)

[Buzz Lightyear]

If you step back a couple of steps and take a look, Sheppard is a villian.

The latest case in point is that he killed off a bunch of those glowing beings while killing the Wraith. Those were intelligent life forms. Maybe they weren't as evolved as humans maybe they were, we don't know. Let's say they were on the intelligence level of something like dogs. What Sheppard did was the same as sticking a milkbone in the pants of a bad guy, sending a few dozen puppies after it to 'distract' the bad guy and then blew them all up. They just wanted something to eat and he killed them. That's not the actions of a nice guy, no matter what the situation.

That brings Shep's kill count up to what...over 100 dead in 2 episodes?

D

Hmm, and if you had to sacrifice a flock of seagulls in order to save your child, a co-worker, or even a total stranger you just met, would you?

A more difficult dilemma might arise if it wasn't a flock of seagulls but your family pet instead.

[ShadowMaat]

What I want to know is why we’re so intent (and I do it myself) on keeping count of all the people Sheppard has killed? Is it just that we like the character so much that we’re taken aback by his killing?

Speaking for myself, I haven't been keeping track. And not just because I suck at numbers. hehe. As you said, Shep is just doing his job. He takes whatever steps are necessary to protect his people. Does he cross the line? Maybe sometimes. But he'd be less interesting if he didn't. He'd be less human.

[Buzz Lightyear]

Speaking for myself, I haven't been keeping track. And not just because I suck at numbers. hehe. As you said, Shep is just doing his job. He takes whatever steps are necessary to protect his people. Does he cross the line? Maybe sometimes. But he'd be less interesting if he didn't. He'd be less human.

This issue often recurs in society wherein some of the more pacifist segments frequently voice disapproval of the military, yet are quite relieved such aggressive elements exist in our nations when global conflicts erupt and threaten our freedom and security.

[derrickh]

The closest alien we've seen to the glow bugs are the ones from SG-1. They're probaly a little different from each other, but as they're portrayed, there's more than a passing resemblance. Let's say the 2 lifeforms are distant cousins. Now, it was establishind in SG-1 that the glow bugs are intelligent and work in groups. It was also established that the glow bugs don't like to be held captive and will attack out of revenge. This would lead you to the conclusion that the glow bugs are at least a little bit 'sentient' ..maybe they're dumber, maybe they're smarter. But they're still intelligent beings.

They seemed friendly enough. Shepard even talked to one in a friendly manner. It's doubtful he would have talked to an ant or a gnat in the same way, so it looks like Shepard acknowledged that the glow bug had a 'some' sort of intelligence.

Then he lured dozens of them to their deaths. Without blinking an eye.

So he's a soldier. Does that give him carte blanche to massacre friendly aliens whenever he's in a bad situation? Sooner or later Weir is gonna have to explain to some alien leader 'Sorry we killed 30 of your people, but you see, we had a guy fighting a single wraith and he would've had to hold out an extra 60 seconds for backup to arrive. I'm sure you understand that 1 of our guys is worth more than 30 of your people. Did I mention that he's also the one that woke up the Wraith in the first place? No?.okay good.'

D

[Zelazny]

Hmm, and if you had to sacrifice a flock of seagulls in order to save your child, a co-worker, or even a total stranger you just met, would you?

A more difficult dilemma might arise if it wasn't a flock of seagulls but your family pet instead.

I must say, very well said.

I myself felt bad for the bugs when they were killed with the Wraith, but understood why Sheppard sacrificed them. He is military and it was what he had to do to save McKay, Gaul(since he didn't know of his death), and himself.

As for Sheppard's killing, the events of the Eye were in defense of Atlantis and of his people who were held captive. And, if Sheppard had had a nice ZAT gun, he would've used that. Although, that does spring to mind why he didn't get himself a Wraith stunner to use... And why didn't the Atlantis team bring any ZATs or Staff Weapons with them to Atlantis? Is it because they didn't want to chance what Atlantis or people they may have encountered would have done at the presense of Goa'uld Tech? Ancient devices did have either no or bad reactions to Goa'uld stuff on SG-1...

[Zelazny]

The closest alien we've seen to the glow bugs are the ones from SG-1. They're probaly a little different from each other, but as they're portrayed, there's more than a passing resemblance. Let's say the 2 lifeforms are distant cousins. Now, it was establishind in SG-1 that the glow bugs are intelligent and work in groups. It was also established that the glow bugs don't like to be held captive and will attack out of revenge. This would lead you to the conclusion that the glow bugs are at least a little bit 'sentient' ..maybe they're dumber, maybe they're smarter. But they're still intelligent beings.

They seemed friendly enough. Shepard even talked to one in a friendly manner. It's doubtful he would have talked to an ant or a gnat in the same way, so it looks like Shepard acknowledged that the glow bug had a 'some' sort of intelligence.

Then he lured dozens of them to their deaths. Without blinking an eye.

So he's a soldier. Does that give him carte blanche to massacre friendly aliens whenever he's in a bad situation? Sooner or later Weir is gonna have to explain to some alien leader 'Sorry we killed 30 of your people, but you see, we had a guy fighting a single wraith and he would've had to hold out an extra 60 seconds for backup to arrive. I'm sure you understand that 1 of our guys is worth more than 30 of your people. Did I mention that he's also the one that woke up the Wraith in the first place? No?.okay good.'

D

Okay. You don't like Sheppard. I like Sheppard. We agree to disagree on that.

I thought there could be a relation to the Prodigy bugs also, but we are assuming this. SG-1 didn't study those bugs near long enough to measure the extent of their intelligence. You know, a bee gets ticked off if you harass it, too. You mess with one or some bees, and you could be on the receiving end of a bunch of them soon(killer bees). So you could say those glow bugs had the intelligence of bees. Would you sacrifice a handfull of bees to save your friend?

Also, Ford was close enough to see lifesigns on the planet and he told Sheppard of this. The Wraith was closing in on McKay and McKay was out of ammo. Ford couldn't fire on the Wraith until he knew which lifesign was the Wraith. Sheppard knew this. He remembered the very strong lifesign those glowing energy bugs emitted and how they would follow his food. He made the decision and attacked the Wraith, stopping its advance on McKay and planting the energy bar. The bugs made the Wraith's lifesign greater than McKay's and Sheppard's. Sheppard told Ford to shoot the largest lifesign. Even then, Sheppard and McKay could be too close or the beam could be slightly off.

Either way, that was a decision Sheppard made in the situation he was in. Put yourself in his shoes and see what you would have done. McKay might not have had "60 seconds", you don't know how far out Ford and the jumper was yet. He was within range to pick up lifesigns and fire, that's all. Actually, here is a bit of dialog immediately after the Wraith blowing up. SPOILERS BELOW











Ford: Sir, this is Ford. The target is gone.

Sheppard: Well now, it's about damn time.

Teyla: We got here as soon as we could Major.

Sheppard: That's not what I mean. Thanks.

Ford: You're welcome sir. We'll be there in just a few minutes.



Did you catch that? "We'll be there in just a few minutes." I would say McKay and Sheppard had around five minutes or maybe even longer when Ford told Sheppard he was picking up their lifesigns. I highly doubt McKay and Sheppard could have survived against the Wraith for five minutes with no weapons to defend themselves. Therefore, I agree with Sheppard's decision to sacrifice the bugs.

Oh, and yeah, Sheppard caused the Wraith to wake. He didn't know that would happen. Do you really think the Keeper would have left all those Wraiths to sleep at the knowledge of Earth and the billions of people they could feed off of? Doubt it.

[LoneStar1836]

Hmm, and if you had to sacrifice a flock of seagulls in order to save your child, a co-worker, or even a total stranger you just met, would you?

Well I would if I had to, but I did like their song even though it was a one-hit wonder.

Anyway, I really enjoyed this episode. It was interesting and entertaining which is more than I can say for the blah that was SG-1’s episode Friday night. It is easily one of my favorites of the season so far.

Honestly, they couldn’t go wrong for me with my two favorite characters as the center of the episode. *knock on wood* (since that didn’t hold true for the ep of SG-1.) Very much enjoyed JF and DH's performances in this one. I could feel the emotion. Admittedly, Shep is my favorite, and any chance to get to see him in action is always a plus for me. And not just for purely shallow reasons. The banter between he and McKay was great as always. The entire PJ sequence at the top of the episode was my favorite.

I enjoyed the character development for Rodney. His character has really advanced as the season has progressed. i.e. he’s left behind most of the doom and gloom attitude that I thought was prevalent at the start of the season. Thankfully, he’s also a good shot since Sheppard seemed to be in his line of fire there at the end. DH’s acting skills were in high gear in this episode. (Course I think he pretty much stays in high gear for each ep. ) He and JF are always so expressive, especially when it comes to the facial expressions.

"Greg" was good, but I still am not very enthralled with the Wraith in general. Steve still has the best line, “I am your death.”

Okay, this episode may have not been perfect, but I can look past the little nitpicky flaws. Yeah, it was predictable that one or both of the “red shirts” was going to get it, but the suicide was somewhat unexpected for me because Stargate is usually not very gritty and plays it safe most of the time to give us nice, happy endings. I prefer the grit. Yeah, the glowy bugs were a plot device, but again, I don’t care. Shep may have made some tactical and leadership mistakes, but I don’t expect him to be perfect. If he were a robot, then I’d complain, but I like his flaws. Unless they are ridiculously stupid. *cough* SG-1 *cough*

Enjoyed the two Star Trek references, but they better start spacing them out more between the episodes. Too much of a good thing and they’ll soon get old. Quick.

Excellent episode. One of my favorites. PDL did a great job writing and directing it.

[Buzz Lightyear]

The closest alien we've seen to the glow bugs are the ones from SG-1. They're probaly a little different from each other, but as they're portrayed, there's more than a passing resemblance. Let's say the 2 lifeforms are distant cousins. Now, it was establishind in SG-1 that the glow bugs are intelligent and work in groups. It was also established that the glow bugs don't like to be held captive and will attack out of revenge. This would lead you to the conclusion that the glow bugs are at least a little bit 'sentient' ..maybe they're dumber, maybe they're smarter. But they're still intelligent beings.

You're making a huge assumption about the "bugs" in episode 4x19 "Prodigy". It was NOT established that they had any more intelligence than a swarm of bees or wasps. Besides, just because they're both "glowy bugs" doesn't mean they're related.

They seemed friendly enough. Shepard even talked to one in a friendly manner. It's doubtful he would have talked to an ant or a gnat in the same way, so it looks like Shepard acknowledged that the glow bug had a 'some' sort of intelligence.

Huh? Humans talk to animals all the time. Even plants. Doesn't mean either group has a high level of intelligence.

Then he lured dozens of them to their deaths. Without blinking an eye.

So he's a soldier. Does that give him carte blanche to massacre friendly aliens whenever he's in a bad situation? Sooner or later Weir is gonna have to explain to some alien leader 'Sorry we killed 30 of your people, but you see, we had a guy fighting a single wraith and he would've had to hold out an extra 60 seconds for backup to arrive. I'm sure you understand that 1 of our guys is worth more than 30 of your people.

Well, if those glow bugs have a level of intelligence like the energy beings in episode 1x09, I'm sure Sheppard et al will eventually pay for their crimes.

Did I mention that he's also the one that woke up the Wraith in the first place? No?.okay good.'

He certainly didn't do so intentionally. So the Wraith wake up earlier than scheduled. So they go snack on the humans in Pegasus sooner rather than later. Your point?

[Jeril]

Wow. I really liked this episode. Really.
Sure, at the beginning, I was like, "Oh, this is just average stuff. Nothing big here." But as soon as McKay got left behind with Gaul, my ears perked up and I was glued because I could smell character development coming on and I've gotta say: Excellent character development for McKay.
I liked actually hearing another character saying, "You've changed." I don't know why. That just affects how I view a character a lot and makes me really look at them in a new light.
Like, after this episode and Hot Zone, I think I can actually say I really like McKay. Geniunely. Before he just annoyed the hell out of me but now he's grown on me and I'm actually looking forward to seeing more of him.

And maybe I'm just sick, but I loved how Gaul killed himself. I was totally not expecting that. When McKay gave him the gun, I thought to myself, "Plot point!" but I never saw that coming. I actually rewound the tape I had the episode on and rewatched the scene three times. It was so different from anything else I remember from Stargate and, wow. Completely couldn't have seen it coming.
McKay's expression when he turned around was so good. Just indescribable. Loved it.

About those glowy bug-things: I kinda felt bad for them when Sheppard blasted them to hell but at the same time, it was so cool. Smart man.
Of course, he could've just told Ford to target the life sign in the middle. Wouldn't that have worked too?

[SmartFox]

I really like this episode. I read how a bunch of you were bad mouthing Sheppard and i think its a bunch of crap.
First of all there is no way you could know that those glowy bugs are intelligent at all.
Second if you were in his shoes would you kill 10 bees to save your life and someone elses. What about 100 bees. What about 100 dogs. Answer these questions first and if no then you can say hes a "murder" but i think your kind of messed up if you would die so 10 bees could live.

[Bastet11191967]

As far as the glowing bugs, my guess is that the wraith had stayed alive long after feeding upon everyone else by feeding upon the glowing bugs. It looked like the wraith was grabbing them and taking their life energy, so I think it's safe to say that they were goners before Ford fired upon the wraith. I may also be stretching it by comparing it to killing off deer to curb the spread of TB.

"Those are my thoughts, not yours."

[SmartFox]

As far as the glowing bugs, my guess is that the wraith had stayed alive long after feeding upon everyone else by feeding upon the glowing bugs. It looked like the wraith was grabbing them and taking their life energy, so I think it's safe to say that they were goners before Ford fired upon the wraith.

Interesting never thought of that. I thought he just didnt like them so was killing them. They are so small i doubt he could get much energy from them though. Plus he did still have tons of bodies left in the ship.

[Phaedron]

Right after this, Shep notices the ice, because of my tv, I thought it was just some mineral and I thought "Oh god, he's going to make gunpowder, oh wait he already has a gun."

I'm glad someone else noted the slyly embedded homage to "Arena." I'm surprised it didn't elicit more in the way of comment...!

[Daniel's_twin]

Interesting never thought of that. I thought he just didnt like them so was killing them. They are so small i doubt he could get much energy from them though. Plus he did still have tons of bodies left in the ship.

Actually, who knows how much energy they have? My sister and I thought pretty much since we saw the little guys that the Wraith used them for some kind of snack. And since they seem to be made entirely of energy, who knows how much it could feed a Wraith?

[greytop]

Actually, who knows how much energy they have? My sister and I thought pretty much since we saw the little guys that the Wraith used them for some kind of snack. And since they seem to be made entirely of energy, who knows how much it could feed a Wraith?

Maybe they were like a mid-morning or afternoon snack to him.