Poisoning the Well (107)

[neurophobic_and_perfect]

deffinately one of the better epesodes.

[bcfc]

This was very good but the Churchill reference at the end really bugged me it felt so cheesey.

[Anuna]

I guess the Churchill reference fits good into what those people on that planet were trying to do - win no matter what was the price. Which is wrong.

[TuesdayRain]

So I just rewatched this episode becasuse I miss Carson. And I was reminded about some questions I had the first time I watched. I read through this thread and didn't see anyone really bring it up. There were so many moral and ethical questions in this episode that I think it bears bringing up again. (It's great when something makes you think and discuss!)

Did the Atlantis team leave the Hoffans because they disagreed with the people's decision to go forward with the world-wide distribution of the innoculation or because they believed the drug no longer was a defensive instrument but an offensive weapon in which it now kills other living beings, that being the Wraith, and is therefore wrong and they want no part of it?

If the team left the Hoffans because they disagreed with the people's decision, then I have no problem with that. A people has the right to decide their own course. We can only choose to walk away if we disagree and not judge or force others to come to our point of view.

However, what I don't understand is why is it such a moral issue (if indeed it was) if they left because the drug was now going to kill the Wraith. The only analogy I can think of is poison ivy. If you see it and know that it's not good for you, you don't touch it. All the Wraith has to do is not touch a Hoffan. The Hoffans are not killing the Wraith, it's the Wraith that are killing themselves if they touch a Hoffan.

Now that I'm typing this, I have another question. What are the rules of war? Humans are at war with the Wraith who are another race. We (real world) have biological weapons. Is it justified in war?

[garhkal]

I think the biggest reason they lef, was initially the hoffans were touting the drug as a defensive measure that would save their entire race. Then when it was found out it would kill half their people for it to be effective it became a hinderance to associate with them, and finally to see their work perverted from a defensive measure to being a weapon was the last straw.

Heck, i have no prob if hey wished to kill themselves that way, but i too would have nothing else to do wih them afterwards.

[daysleeper]

Moral issues aside, this episode really bothered me.

- Why not create a weapon with syringe bullets containing the Hoffan serum since they already know it can kill a Wraith? The Wraith unlike the Goauld don't seem to have personal shield to protect themselves, probably because they rely on regeneration. Even if they develop one, as in SG-1 a syringe weapon can penetrate the shield. Walking away from this was unacceptable to me.

- Someone else may have said it in the previous pages but the Hoffan serum can also be used as a suicide pill for last resort - one that has, mind you, 50/50 chance of actually keeping the user alive. How bad is that if your chance of surviving is virtually zero without it, say when you're in captivity of the Wraith?

PS. Yes I just watched the eposide recently, in fact I just completed Season 1 Atlantis today having previously watched only SG-1. Let's see if these questions get answered later on though I doubt it. Great show so far, the characters seem real (but really annoying, e.g. the indecisive Dr. Weir)...

[twinchaosblade]

So I just rewatched this episode becasuse I miss Carson. And I was reminded about some questions I had the first time I watched.

Spoiler:

I read through this thread and didn't see anyone really bring it up. There were so many moral and ethical questions in this episode that I think it bears bringing up again. (It's great when something makes you think and discuss!)

Did the Atlantis team leave the Hoffans because they disagreed with the people's decision to go forward with the world-wide distribution of the innoculation or because they believed the drug no longer was a defensive instrument but an offensive weapon in which it now kills other living beings, that being the Wraith, and is therefore wrong and they want no part of it?

Spoiler:

If the team left the Hoffans because they disagreed with the people's decision, then I have no problem with that. A people has the right to decide their own course. We can only choose to walk away if we disagree and not judge or force others to come to our point of view.

However, what I don't understand is why is it such a moral issue (if indeed it was) if they left because the drug was now going to kill the Wraith. The only analogy I can think of is poison ivy. If you see it and know that it's not good for you, you don't touch it. All the Wraith has to do is not touch a Hoffan. The Hoffans are not killing the Wraith, it's the Wraith that are killing themselves if they touch a Hoffan.

Now that I'm typing this, I have another question. What are the rules of war? Humans are at war with the Wraith who are another race. We (real world) have biological weapons. Is it justified in war?

I think the Lantians/expedition abandoned the Hoffans because they couldn't accept and support the latter's decision to use the drug despite the 50 per cent mortality rate. Plus the fact that, since the drug didn't only prevent the Wraith from feeding but also killed them, they were afraid of retributions by the Wraith. Once the Wraith realized that the Hoffans had this drug and distributed it to other worlds, effectively limiting their feeding grounds (both by reducing the sheer number of inhabitants and those that survive are immune and a danger), the Wraith would have erased the whole planet out of existence, just as well as anyone who had dealings with this people because the Wraith simply can't tolerate and merely ignore the Hoffan's success. They would have been utterly destroyed, for the Wraith would have wanted to stop their distribution, plus setting an example as to what happens to people who dare defying them.

As I see it, it was a multilayered dilemma for the Lantians. Not only didn't the Hoffan's want Carson to continue working on the drug to make it safe(r) before administering it (something Beckett and probably most of the expedition as well would never have accepted), plus they probably feared that this kind of action (after all the Wraith would have gotten to know about the drug being a danger to their species some time) would only accellerate the Wraith's advance on all the Hoffan's allies, thus on them as well.

Moral issues aside, this episode really bothered me.

- Why not create a weapon with syringe bullets containing the Hoffan serum since they already know it can kill a Wraith? The Wraith unlike the Goauld don't seem to have personal shield to protect themselves, probably because they rely on regeneration. Even if they develop one, as in SG-1 a syringe weapon can penetrate the shield. Walking away from this was unacceptable to me.

- Someone else may have said it in the previous pages but the Hoffan serum can also be used as a suicide pill for last resort - one that has, mind you, 50/50 chance of actually keeping the user alive. How bad is that if your chance of surviving is virtually zero without it, say when you're in captivity of the Wraith?

PS. Yes I just watched the eposide recently, in fact I just completed Season 1 Atlantis today having previously watched only SG-1. Let's see if these questions get answered later on though I doubt it. Great show so far, the characters seem real (but really annoying, e.g. the indecisive Dr. Weir)...

Welcome to Gateworld, daysleeper!
I think this serum wasn't used as a syringe weapon because it takes too long to take effect. The Wraith would die at last but not immediately enough to prevent the culling. Therefore the Hoffans would still lose their lives. Injecting themselves with the drug and hoping to be on the side of the surviving 50 per cent, would hold a much greater chance of survival for the people. If the Hoffans all died, it would be a bitter victory and who would continue the production of the drug?

The point with the suicide pill is actually a good one. Although there is no knowing how long the drug takes to become effective in the recipient, thus they might be fed upon before the Wraith have to fear for any deadly effects for themselves. Just my two cents...

And I also think that 'Poisoning the Well' was a very good episode, very emotional and touching, especially for Carson Beckett! My heart broke for him when Perna died.
(I think Paul McGillion gave a fabulous performance in this episode!)

[daysleeper]

Hey thanks twinchaosblade!

I was referring to the Tauris using srynge weapons, not the Hoffans. If they use it in conjunction with regular projectile weapons I think it can be effective. Regardless, I agree the episode is emotionally entertaining.

I'm on to Season 2 as we speak!

[garhkal]

Moral issues aside, this episode really bothered me.

- Why not create a weapon with syringe bullets containing the Hoffan serum since they already know it can kill a Wraith? The Wraith unlike the Goauld don't seem to have personal shield to protect themselves, probably because they rely on regeneration. Even if they develop one, as in SG-1 a syringe weapon can penetrate the shield. Walking away from this was unacceptable to me.

Perhaps cause the drug only seemed to work if the wraith fed on someone who consumed it, they could not 'weaponize it.

[garhkal]

Spoiler:

Well after what happend in Kindred part 1 (season 4 ep 17), we now know what happened to the Hoffans..

[Arga]

Great but... You forgot to put spoilers tag... We're not supposed to say anything that happens in season 4, on a season 1 forum... It's not too late to edit your post and place it between SPOILERS tags.. Please.

[garhkal]

That better..

[Artifysial]

I was surprised more was not made of the potential for a weapon here as well. I mean

Spoiler:

more is made later on about blowing the Wraith away and turning them against each other and so on

so why not use a serum at this point that can infect them or even a whole hive? There were presumably no rules of space war as there are on Earth about the use of biological warfare - not an honourable death for a Wraith of course but then if if it's a straight choice between Wraith fodder and survivor where's the choice. In earth wars no one is trying to suck your life blood for dinner.

[gateship15]

i feel sorry for Carson Beckett! i like him and when the woman died i was sad for him because he liked her very much.

[Orion25]

I liked the episode. It was another view of how the humans in the Pegasus have been surviving against the Wraith and seeing how a society's development has been hampered by the periodical culling. I begin to wonder if the drug would eventually fall into Genii hands, seeing they have spies in some home worlds. I'm also curious as to what happened to the rest of the Hoffans now. Someone mentioned where the peculiar protein resistant to the Wraith's feeding enzyme, may have come from a Satedan. Interesting theory and I hope the writers will pick up on this again sometime. I guess I have to wait and see.